Did Jimmy Paige steal his stairway to Heaven ?

originally posted by: Planet teleX
Nah

From 1959:

This is a famous jazz tune written in 1953.. Good find. As I said, this is a very common device harmonically that everyone was using (and still does.)

WOW - the similarities are pretty clear. I think they might have a case. Other bands have won suits for less.

I also think it's strange the title Spirit has the same type of connotation as Stairway to Heaven - they both talk about things in the spiritual realm. That kinda tipped if for me to think perhaps this is factual and Jimmy may have "stolen" the tune.

JP and LZ were renowned for ripping off tunes and lyrics and I don't even think they were too fussed about concealing it.

Bert Jansch always said the LZ track White Summer/Black Mountainside was a rip-off of his version of the traditional folk song Blackwaterside; he tried suing to no avail.

He was right - Page definitely tried to emulate Jansch's guitar technique.

But they weren't unique in this, even at the time.

Deep Purple ripped off Vanilla Fudge (indeed their mission was to emulate Fudge); Child In Time was an obvious restructuring of It's A Beautiful Day's Bombay Calling, released just a year before; Black Night stole its famous guitar riff from Ricky Nelson's version of Summertime.

Of all their music, Stairway to Heaven is the one song I don't like.
And I never thought it 'fit' with them at all.
So if it turns out to be stolen music ... I won't be surprised.

For those interested ...

ATS Thread - That Led Zepplin Devil Worship Thread

I agree with you FlyersFan. Stairway to Heaven never seemed to fit with the rest of their music. Although some of their later stuff was a bit folksy too. I am always disappointed when I hear that music has been ripped off.

No, that is a standard chord progression in many songs.

I believe blues music came from hillbilly bluegrass, right along with rock n roll. Then it spread outwards from there.

Musicians draw inspiration from other musicians sometimes. It's just an descending scale and anyone who plays guitar will have done it. It's like someone trying to copyright the word "and".

There's too many people out there taking credit for something they had no part of. Songs are being ripped off, but in this case, I just don't think so. Jimmy Page is one of the greatest guitarists of all time. Led Zeppelin is one of the greatest bands of all time.

I predict this will get thrown out of court, as it should be.

originally posted by: Fylgje
I believe blues music came from hillbilly bluegrass, right along with rock n roll. Then it spread outwards from there.

Actually, from what we can trace, blues originated as a mixture of Northern African melismatic Arabic-Islamic singing styles super imposed over West African pentatonic tuning systems. There was also obviously the mixture of work songs and spirituals, and the I-IV-V Western harmony, though the V was always out of place with the notes being sung, and the the actual melodies fit closer to just the I and IV chord. The blue notes (minor and major third for instance,) are partly related to African music's use of the neutral third (and the difference of their tuning systems), and partly to the melismatic Arabic Islamic style of singing found in Northern Africa. Bluegrass had its roots in Irish, Welsch, and English music. Though the African and European styles influenced each other in the South, they have very distinct roots. They also developed in different regions, the Blues across the Mississippi Delta, Bluegrass in the Appalachian Mountains.

a reply to: AudioOne

Do you have any audio links or written examples of this music from at least before the 1700's? Not to mention before the Irish were doing it before they immigrated?
The Irish brought it to the mountains of WV and Ky. My opinion of it is American blues is a derivative of that. Slaves were listening to the farmers play it and it went from there. Then low and behold rock and roll was born but not before rock-a-billy.

originally posted by: Fylgje
a reply to: AudioOne

Do you have any audio links or written examples of this music from at least before the 1700's? Not to mention before the Irish were doing it before they immigrated?
The Irish brought it to the mountains of WV and Ky. My opinion of it is American blues is a derivative of that. Slaves were listening to the farmers play it and it went from there. Then low and behold rock and roll was born but not before rock-a-billy.

While I am sure you know that recording has been only been around since the late 19th century, what we do have is a vast historical record coupled with 100 years of research. The recordings we do have since the late 19th century, (along with the testimony of the musicians themselves,) is enough to be able to piece together at least the skeleton of the narrative. Of course, European history and music was written in notation and the written word, so we do know how things sounded like, what lyrics and instruments were used, to a great degree. After all, we are still performing Motets written during the Renaissance.

First, we need to start with some nuanced definitions. Obviously, you did not mean that Bluegrass came before the blues, as the first mention of blues being heard around the Mississippi Delta came from the late 1890's, early 1900's. The first notated blues was written down on paper in 1912, and the first recording was made in 1920 by Mammie Smith. Bluegrass as a genre was developed in the 1930's and 1940's, from roots in what is often called "Old Time Music."

Old Time Music was a combination of influences from Scottish, Irish, English AND African influences. One African influence that can be thought of immediately is the banjo, which was a direct descendant of the African stringed instruments such as the Kora. This is not a matter of debate, there are many historical references to people writing about slaves in the African Diaspora making and playing instruments that came to be known as the Banjo. There are also testimonials of Old Time Music white musicians going and learning this instrument from local African Americans. During the 1800's, at the same time that Old Time Music was developing, there was also the development of African American Music that utilized distinctly African elements universally found in every African Diaspora community, such as syncopation and call and response. The field hollers, spirituals, work songs and ring shouts often sounded strange enough to listeners and musicians of European descent, (the same ones familiar with the music of the British Isles,) that they would write about these differences in books which you can read now. They noticed the strange intonation, use of notes, and rhythms that were abundant which were not part of the European canon. As all musicians seek to learn from one another, black and white musicians learned from each other. There is a clear record of African Americans singing Protestant Hymns, (Fisk Jubilee Singers,) and utilizing European Harmony. At the same time they tended to use a flat 7 and blue 3rd versus the common natural 7nth of European music. This had an influence on Old Time Music and later Bluegrass, as you do not hear this blues 7nth nor blues 3rd in the music of the British Isles.

I would also like to add that in terms of the Old Time Music, British Ballads were hugely influential, with a high degree of British Ballad songs still being sung in the Appalachian region when folk song collectors started traveling and recording collections of "folk" music. What we know now however is that these "folk" musicians tried playing anything that they were exposed to.

People who were living at the time wrote of first hearing the blues in many regions of the Mississippi Delta starting around the 1890's. They all stated that it is was a very different music from anything that they had heard before, and it was quickly becoming a craze. W.C. Handy (who published one of the first blues in 1912) said that he first heard the Blues in 1904, played by a ragged African American at a Train station, and that it was the weirdest music he had ever heard. Handy was a trained musician who was familiar with all the popular styles of the time, including English Ballads and Irish music. Universally, writers living at the time wrote how different blues was from anything they had heard before.

Up to this point I have ignored New Orleans, which also developed music that influenced the music of all of the above. Marches were mixed with African polyrhythms and syncopation to create diverse styles such as Ragtime and Early Jazz. These sounds also spread throughout the country. They got mixed in with blues relatively quickly, and you can trace those elements through recordings. For instance, before Rock-a-billy, you can hear records of Harlem stride pianists in the 1920s (on recordings from the 1920s) hitting those bluesy chord riffs that became part of early rock and roll and rock-a-billy. Stride eventually became Swing in the late 20's and 1930's. Ragtime, Stride, Swing, and Blues became so popular that it was heard all over the country in African American communities. At the same time, musicians learned from each other, so some African American blues players also learned country tunes, and so called country players also learned blues. Still when you listen to their records, you can often tell more often then not, who was in which camp because of stylistic traits.

Rhythm and Blues was getting electrified in the 1940's and it wasn't a big jump from those sounds to Elvis Presley.

As far as some of the other African origins that I described, you can read Gerhard Kubik's book, African and the Blues. It was written after 40 years of extensive field work in Africa, studying both the history of the blues and the different tonal and rhythmic systems of Africa. It makes the necessary connections to both the pentatonic systems and Islamic Arabic singing. A wonderful example of this styles retention in the US is the youtube video below. This was recorded at a Prison in the US in 1947.

www.youtube.com...

a reply to: skunkape23

Correct. To elaborate further, 'Stairway to Heaven' combines the descending chromatic you mention (in a lower register) with an ascending minor scale in the treble. That isn't in the Spirit song, as far as I can hear. The end of the phrase is also completely different: the last few notes of the figure in 'Stairway' have an obvious minor tonality, whereas in 'Taurus' the figure ends in a conventional descending pattern which sounds more major than minor to me, played over a V chord.

No doubt Page heard 'Taurus' and was inspired by it to create the STH progression. However, a more direct ancestor of the STH intro is 'Babe I'm Gonna Leave You' from the first Led Zeppelin album, released in 1968. Again, a descending chromatic bass figure against an A minor chord, with a pedal G note in the treble instead of STH's ascending A minor scale. Sounds nothing at all like the Spirit song, yet the connexion with STH is obvious.

a reply to: Planet teleX

Now that's a lot more like 'Stairway' — even down to the final major seventh chord before the return to the tonic. The Spirit song doesn't have that essential detail.

Davey Graham was one of the great English folk guitarists, like Martin Carthy and Bert Jansch, whom Page was keen on in his session muso days. The stuff those guys played provided the inspiration for many other hit songs written by more famous artists, such as Dylan's 'Girl from the North Country' and Paul Simon's 'Scarborough Fair'.

a reply to: AudioOne

!930's and '40's? But the Appalachia mountains were filled with "old time" music in the 1800's, before the delta blues. It was still French quarters down there. The Irish and Germans were cutting rugs long before coming to Appalachia. The banjo, or a form of it, also came from the middle east as well. Either way, the banjo was incorporated later into Scotish German Irish music.

And I find your claim rediculous that these mountain people went and learned from Africans. Why would they have to when they've been around longer? I noticed that some of the people in the music roots research department make WILD AND EXAGERATED CLAIMS BACKED BY NOTHING BUT BS and wishful thinking. I am also aware of the propaganda books out there on the subject that are complete and utter fantasy.


So your claiming that the people who settled the Appalachian mountains, -the Germans, the Scottish nor the Irish, had anything to do with music that they'd been playing for centuries, and long before blacks played it? And that they learned it all from African slaves? Is this what you're claiming? lol

originally posted by: Fylgje
a reply to: AudioOne

!930's and '40's? But the Appalachia mountains were filled with "old time" music in the 1800's, before the delta blues. It was still French quarters down there. The Irish and Germans were cutting rugs long before coming to Appalachia. The banjo, or a form of it, also came from the middle east as well. Either way, the banjo was incorporated later into Scotish German Irish music.

And I find your claim rediculous that these mountain people went and learned from Africans. Why would they have to when they've been around longer? I noticed that some of the people in the music roots research department make WILD AND EXAGERATED CLAIMS BACKED BY NOTHING BUT BS and wishful thinking. I am also aware of the propaganda books out there on the subject that are complete and utter fantasy.


So your claiming that the people who settled the Appalachian mountains, -the Germans, the Scottish nor the Irish, had anything to do with music that they'd been playing for centuries, and long before blacks played it? And that they learned it all from African slaves? Is this what you're claiming? lol

As far as Bluegrass, are you just restating exactly what I said and trying to make it sound like an argument? Bluegrass proper is not the exact same things as Old Time Music, just like Heavey Metal is not the same as Rolling Stones type Rock and Roll, just as Gustav Mahler is not the same a Mozart.

What I'm claiming is that 100 years worth of recordings and research, along with FACTS such as Africans also have their own music traditions that are just as old as European, means that different musics have different roots. Africans have been in the Americas since 1619. It seems like you have no knowledge of African, nor African American culture, music, or history.

But by all means, believe whatever you want to believe. At this point arguing with you is like arguing with someone who believes that Abraham Lincoln sailed to the New World with Columbus. Along with the incredibly asanine viewpoint that somehow every historical record is propaganda while having not ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE of your own.

I placed the researchable facts in my post. There are plenty of interviews of Old time musicians, in fact, of all American musicians that prove the thesis I stated. There are also diaries, letters... You have nothing, not even any selections from the recordings from 100+ years. I also stated VERY clearly that Old Time Music was a combination of all elements, yet you keep making things all or nothing, like in your first post, the Irish are responsible for all American music? Also you keep (on purpose? troll? I don't know,) somehow turning my argument about the blues into music about the Irish! As if whoever gets credit for the Blues also gets credit for Irish music. The whole thing I've been saying is that, yes, the Irish get to lay credit to their music and it's influence of Old Time Music and Bluegrass, and African Americans get to keep their contributions to old time music and Blues! They are separate forms of music! Only you are saying that they only have one father. Just because you think the Blues and Bluegrass have the same root, it would be nice for you to use some critical reading skills and see that I am not. So when I say the Blues have an African influence, and you say, "you're wrong! Bluegrass has Irish origins," you are not using any logic as I never said that Bluegrass and Blues have the same origins. Also, I clearly stated that Old Time Music was a mixture of all cultures and stated the banjo as an example of the African influence, not, like you, saying that it is all or nothing. All the European influences that I stated before are still there even if I name one African influence. Isn't it amazing! You can give credit to more then one culture! I didn't say that white musicians learned European styles from African musicians either, I said there were historical reports of white musicians learning the instrument of the banjo from African Americans, and then using that instrument for their own European music. And the blue notes that African American musicians were using were added to the stylistic performance of European style music just like jazz musicians such as Charlie Parker took elements of Classical voice leading but applied them to the blues and swing.

I'm done arguing with you. I used the rules of debate, you are just pulling things from thin air without ever addressing the evidence.

Surely you are not so stupid and moronic to not realize that the Africans had their own musical traditions JUST AS OLD as the Europeans too? Also, how many times do I have to restate that Blues did not originate in the Appalachian region? IS every one who ever wrote a letter or a book since the late 1800's lying?!?!?!?!?!? And blues sounds noting like Irish Music!! Find me a recording from the 20's that sounds like Blues and Jazz musicians are playing Irish sounding music, or Irish musicians playing straight up blues or jazz and calling it European music. The Europeans had everything to do with their own music, but guess what!! It doesn't sound like the Blues! And once Africans, Europeans, and Native Americans all lived here they still influenced each other, but still, you can tell the difference between a style like Bluegrass that has some African influence but is more European, and the Blues that has some European influence but is more African. This was all clearly stated in my previous post.

Also, it sound like you absolutely know no music theory as I have also given direct musical example of African influence. So if you are arguing about cars but don't know how an engine works.....

2nd line
1st line

a reply to: Fylgje

You are either a very confused person who doesn't know the difference between blues and bluegrass, or you are some kind of history-revising racist. Which is it?

a reply to: Astyanax

Racist?? For questioning BS claims? Puhlease. That seems to be the normal response when anyone asks for facts, which there are none, only opinions.

a reply to: AudioOne

BS. All opinions based on assumptions and bogus claims. You are saying that nobody had any music until Africans came to north America. And remember, Africans were not here before most other settlers--You may wanna brush up on history. No blues were being played anywhere except the mountains, just like I said, then it spread from there. You can claim this influence theory all you want to, but the facts say otherwise. I asked for you to prove to me what you are saying but you didn't do it. My family has been in mountains before most anyone else. We have history and strong culture too, but unfortunately, a lot of it has been hi-jacked and blurred by inaccuracies. But hey, you're entitled to your opinion.

originally posted by: Fylgje
a reply to: AudioOne

BS. All opinions based on assumptions and bogus claims. You are saying that nobody had any music until Africans came to north America. And remember, Africans were not here before most other settlers--You may wanna brush up on history. No blues were being played anywhere except the mountains, just like I said, then it spread from there. You can claim this influence theory all you want to, but the facts say otherwise. I asked for you to prove to me what you are saying but you didn't do it. My family has been in mountains before most anyone else. We have history and strong culture too, but unfortunately, a lot of it has been hi-jacked and blurred by inaccuracies. But hey, you're entitled to your opinion.

Whatever. I provided the results of historical research that has been universally peer reviewed by people actually researching these things. These books that you call BS all have extensive footnotes and bibliographies where you can find all the documents of people living at the time who said that the Blues came from the Delta. I didn't say no music was here before the African influence. There you go again with your intentional all or nothing misreading. If by 3 posts you can't get that IT IS ONLY YOU WHO BELIEVE THAT ONLY ONE CULTURE brought music to the US I don't know what to tell you. In each post I explain that the Europeans and Africans all brought their cultures and musics over to the US. I explained all the music the Europeans brought over that would have been played here regardless if Africans were brought over through the horrors of slavery or not. But the Africans brought their music and culture as well that influenced and was influenced by European musical styles in the Americas. The Blues is an African American idiom. Irish music would still be here regardless if the Blues ever existed or not.

You have proven you actually do not know any music theory so you are only superficially feeling your way about this subject with a gut feeling and lack of knowledge.

a reply to: AudioOne

As I said, bogus claims have been made and constantly perpetrated with no evidence, and I just wanted to hear your scripted response on the matter. I have plans on making a future thread about this. You'll learn some very interesting facts about the origins of certain flavors of music. Just because someone plays music and likes it, does NOT mean they invented it. I like Bagels but I can't lay claim to them. lol

And just because I don't share your fact less opinions on historical propaganda and lies doesn't mean that I don't know music So you can keep that insult.

Have a nice day