logical evidence that there is/is not a God.

I no this is hard to do, but throw out your personal belifes, and the only ones u can keep are weather u belive in God or not. and please no "there is no God" I want only logical ideas. ill start it off with a logical idea for God, and one for not God.

logical reason FOR God. imagine the universe, theres nothign in it. u cannot truly grasp the concept of nothing, cause uve never seen nothing. u cannot get something from nothing. thus, something in the universe HAS to be eternal, just always was. why not belive it was a God? u gotta belive soemthing is eternal, so why CANT God exist? u cant ever logically speaking say "There is no God" because u cnat search the universe for him, I dont belive u could ever logically say he doesnt exist.

Logical reason God DOESNT exist. numbers do not have an end, they go on forever. God is all powerful, like numbers, he cant have a limit to power, and be so all poweful of the universe, like numbers he cant have an end.there fore logically speaking, God couldnt exist.
ANOTHER logical reason God doesnt exist: can God make a rock so big he cant pick up?

another logical reason to combat those 2: imagine a 2d man in bis 2d world. a 3d ball comes into his world, and the 2d guy hops i it, and rolls around in the 2 directions he can. a 3d guy comes and tells him to go the OTHER way. to the 2d guy, there is no other way, its impossible. like that guy, God doesnt live in the same dimensions of everyday life we do, we cant truly no the power of God, we could never understand it.

and to clear up "God" let me define him

God: a supernatural being who is the highest ever, always existed, can never have anything higher than God

thats right, that means nothing about heaven or hell or demons, Allah, Satan, NUTHIN bout them.
when on this forumn, stick to the definition I gave u, and assume NOTHING else about God, not interested in personal beliefs, but cold hard logical evidence for and against God.

I would define God as 'the divine and purposeful self organising properties exibited by energy'. Reality is just notional feilds of energy which, by virtue of our senses, we perceive as the universe...

Examples of the purposeful nature of the manner that energy self organises can be seen in the structure of atoms, molecules, crystals and in sacred geometry of living organisms and the tree of life.

P.S. Thanks (not) yourself...who made you the ultimate arbiter of what people can beleive in...

P.P.S Learn to spell


[Edited on 1-12-2004 by Flange Gasket]

thanks (not) we can all perfect the definition of God, point being I wanted to make it clear we draw NO conclusions about God, and hes the highest eternal being ever. I dotn need technical evaluations, and all u scardy cat yellow headed peopel out there who say theres no God, and those who say their is one, give some logical evidence please....

Originally posted by Slicky1313
logical reason FOR God. imagine the universe, theres nothign in it. u cannot truly grasp the concept of nothing, cause uve never seen nothing. u cannot get something from nothing. thus, something in the universe HAS to be eternal

If something has to be eternal anyway, then why not the universe, even if it cycles thru some series of big bang

why not belive it was a God?

Why not beleive it was gods? Or any number of other things? Or why not beleive that there was something eternal but not supernatural?

u gotta belive soemthing is eternal, so why CANT God exist?

So the fact that there could be a god is logical evidence for there being a god?? And does one really have to beleive in something being eternal?? Things pop in and out of existence in nature, in the 'vaccuum' of empty space particles come into existence from nothing and turn back into it, so why should one say that things can't come from nothing?

u cant ever logically speaking say "There is no God" because u cnat search the universe for him, I dont belive u could ever logically say he doesnt exist.

I agree, and I think most people do too. One can't devise a reasonable logical arguement nor an experiment to demonstrate that there is no god. One also can't devise a reasonable logical arguement nor an experiment to demonstrate that there is a god.

numbers do not have an end, they go on forever. God is all powerful, like numbers, he cant have a limit to power, and be so all poweful of the universe, like numbers he cant have an end.there fore logically speaking, God couldnt exist.

What?

ANOTHER logical reason God doesnt exist: can God make a rock so big he cant pick up?

Sure, why not? He can make a rock so big that even he can't pick it up and then pick it up. He make make square circles, he can do whatever he wants, because there is no reason to think that any god is bound by logic.

we cant truly no the power of God, we could never understand it.

So how is that a logical arguement for the existence of god? Its a statement, that may or may not be true.

thats right, that means nothing about heaven or hell or demons, Allah, Satan, NUTHIN bout them.

This doesn't even begin to make sense. I can understand talking about 'the highest god' and therefor eexcluding demons, polytheistic gods and whatnot, but allah, there is nothing in your definition that excludes allah. Or even 'satan' or an evil all powerful god , there is nothing there that forces an all powerful thing to be god. Sure it can't be 'satan' because satan is by definition lesser than the christian god, but it certainly can be an evil all powerful god.

we draw NO conclusions about God, and hes the highest eternal being ever.

Do you have to contradict yourself so quickly? At least say 'other than' in the middle there?

What the heck are 'yellow headed people' supposed to be.

give some logical evidence please....

Logical evidence for or against god? honestly, you need to explain how there can be some in the first place.

[edit on 29-11-2004 by Nygdan]

[edit on 29-11-2004 by Nygdan]

There isnt a shred of evidence that a "god" exists. Its just that simple. There is more evidence of Big Foot and the Loch Ness monster than there is of god.

www.abovetopsecret.com... read some of the replys on the god part. Although im not sure if it proves it any one way... you decide.

Nygdan, your not making any sense. u said "why cant it be Gods" if it were god's, they wouldnt truly be God, now would they? remember my definition, the highest being ever, therefore excluding 'gods" and we werent talking about gods but GOD, we are not debating that subject, only logical evidence of if God exist. I still dont see no logical evidence posted, only bogus claims of "There isnt a shred of evidence that a "god" exists. Its just that simple. There is more evidence of Big Foot and the Loch Ness monster than there is of god."
thats not even logical, how can u be so sure theres no God? and dude, Nygdan said "particles come into existence from nothing and turn back into it" that is impossible, things dont come from nothing.

imagine a covered room, adn in the room is NOTHING. no light, no air, no hydrogen, nuthin. u need to get something, anything in the room without using anything from the outisde or an outside force. another words, something would have to pop out absolutely nothing to get in the room, that is the only way. same way with space, sopmething would have to pop out of nothing to create all this. now can u even imagine a pencil some how popping in the room of nothing? no, its observed, not even a germ. therefore, everyone with decent scientific knowledge would agree something in the universe is eternal. according to the 1st law of thermo dynamics, matter can neither be created nor destroyed, thus matter being created out of nothing is impossible, ud have to throw out all the laws of physics if you give one law a punch in the stomache and somehow say "we'll, its true, but lets pretend it doesnt exist" And if the universe is eternal, wouldnt the universe have run out of hydrogen by now
so all u stupid people (not to hurt any members) who think u can break all the laws of physics and have blind faith of things popping out of absolutely nothing and going back are fools! its like saying your grandson was born when u dont even have a son, its not possible, stupid ignorant sons and daughters of no good rotten dirty filthy dirt bags (no offense to any of the members :-))

Here's where the trouble starts: Everyone has a different definition of God. When I think of God, I cant comphrehend it, its just some meaningless abstract concept to me. By your defintion of God, then no, I dont believe in God. I dont think there is anything conscience that created the universe. If God is eternal, then the universe might as well be. So, I dont believe in a personal God/creator. I dont believe in a higher being that is conscience. I dont think any religions are right, or even if truth is absolute. The main problem I have with a personal creator is that we cant detect it, we have no evidence of a soul, no way to detect it, so to even think that it exists outside of logic and reason is pointless and meaningless to me. Its like asking what the color of language is. I dont have any major beliefs, but im more open to the idea of "something" higher than us, by "something" I dont mean a creator, just some sort of system. But I wouldnt call that God. I dono, those are my thoughts, im getting a headache now.

.
Logical argument for or against starts with a precise concise definition of exactly what God is and is not.
The term God is so vauge and varied as to be a virtually meaningless.
It is like arguing about the existence of Murcklians [made-up-word].

Worshiping God is sort of like playing air-guitar. A lot of fun but not much practical use beyond making you feel good.
.

"I dont believe" - Alec. what did I say, I said throw aside all personal beliefs.

"I dont think any religions are right" -Alec. dude, what did I say??!!!
I said dont make any assumptions about God besides what I said, why are u making the assumption God has to do with religion? u obviously are, or u wouldnt bring it up.
rule one- no personal belief
rule two- no assumptions on what God has to do with, only what I stated

so stop bringing out outside info, and you STILL havent created logical information on why a supernatural being that is the highest power can or can not exist.

It's all about cause and effect. Can something come from nothing? No. The one cause is god and the effect is all the material that is...

- Attero

well done! nicely stated. wasnt quite logical, but I did agree with it.

and stick to the rules or else to everyone else, logical information please!

Okay, slicky, I'll stick to your definition of God. No, because God would have to have a mother. And a father to impregnate her. And a father to his father, to impregnate a mother to his mother. Infinite regression. "He" cannot have always existed if nothing created him.

Originally posted by Slicky1313
and to clear up "God" let me define him

God: a supernatural being who is the highest ever, always existed, can never have anything higher than God

thats right, that means nothing about heaven or hell or demons, Allah, Satan, NUTHIN bout them.
when on this forumn, stick to the definition I gave u, and assume NOTHING else about God, not interested in personal beliefs, but cold hard logical evidence for and against God.

You think god is a he or her, and that it must obey the laws of living/mortal things?

- Attero

Originally posted by Slicky1313
u said "why cant it be Gods" if it were god's

I agree, after that first post you made it so only a singular god would be considered. This of course is arbitrary, and it just may as well include lesser gods who are inferior to one supreme god, say Zeus or Shiva. Indeed, most christians accept a triune godhead, and thus consider themselves monotheists, even tho the powers of god ar divided between three different 'aspects'.

There is more evidence of Big Foot and the Loch Ness monster than there is of god."
thats not even logical, how can u be so sure theres no God?

Notice however that he did not say that there is no god, merely that there is no evidence that od exists.

"particles come into existence from nothing and turn back into it" that is impossible, things dont come from nothing.

its surprising but apparently not immpossible. Unless you want 'immpossible' to mean something other than 'cannot and does not happen'

imagine a covered room, adn in the room is NOTHING. no light, no air, no hydrogen, nuthin.

If the imaginary room is truly empty, then there will be these 'vaccuum' particles popping in and out of existence inside of it, out of the nothing, back into the nothing.

now can u even imagine a pencil some how popping in the room of nothing?

A pencil, fully formed? Thats not what you are talking about tho. You are saying that since nothing can come out of nothing, then there must be a god that created everything, an eternal god. I do not agree that this is a logical proof of god's existence, nor do I agree that 'nothing can come out of nothing'. Things infact do. Not pencils or whatnot, but something can come out of nothing.

everyone with decent scientific knowledge would agree something in the universe is eternal.

This entire line of reasoning however is founded on the idea that nothing can come from nothing, whereas something can come from nothing. And even if one were to pretend for the moment that nothing can come from nothing, how is this proof of god? It could just as easily be that the universe itself is eternal, even if it goes thru 'inflation events' like the big bang. Its also entirely possible, now that I think of it, that there was some previously existing 'eternal' god that brought the universe into existence, but that, for whatever the reason, is not 'all powerful' or that something could come out of the universe that is more powerful than that god. Why not, after all?

according to the 1st law of thermo dynamics, matter can neither be created nor destroyed,

Then the universe can not have been created and must have allways existed and there was no god that created it. A god could've existed along side with it all along, but there can't be any point in which the universe itself doesn't exist and is then created.

thus matter being created out of nothing is impossible, ud have to throw out all the laws of physics if you give one law a punch in the stomache and somehow say "we'll, its true, but lets pretend it doesnt exist"

I don't suggest that we pretend it doesn't occur. And thats the problem with "Laws of Physics'. They aren't invioable laws.

And if the universe is eternal, wouldnt the universe have run out of hydrogen by now

Why? This could be the begining of it.

so all u stupid people (not to hurt any members) who think u can break all the laws of physics and have blind faith of things popping out of absolutely nothing and going back are fools!

Try picking up a book on modern physics before you start calling other people 'fools'.

stupid ignorant sons and daughters of no good rotten dirty filthy dirt bags (no offense to any of the members :-))

Having some difficulties are ya?

slank
It is like arguing about the existence of Murcklians

What the hell kind of idiot is going to say that murcklians don't exist?

slicky1313
and you STILL havent created logical information on why a supernatural being that is the highest power can or can not exist.

And neither have you nor anyone else here nor, as far as I am aware, anyone else in the existence of human history.

Attero Auctorita
The one cause is god and the effect is all the material that is

Why is the only cause god? Or are you saying god is just the 'cause' itself and ceased to exist after that? And what caused the cause?

Alec- if God is a supernatural being who always existed, as stated in my defintion, how can God have a father?
1- God is supernatural, not human
2- eternal
HOW THE *coughs* how could he have a father and mother and be born by that definition??!!?!?!! u sad sick *coughs again* maybe yer trying to find a desperate attempt to find fault in this, since u cant find any logical evidence of how God doesnt exist, so yer last desperate dying attempt is to try and attack the words of people, which has obviously failed and you run out of options.
and if God had a mother he obviously wouldnt be God, now would he??! gahhh- use yer brain, u no that thing in yer head, yeah, THAT one. I hope u aitheist get ready for when I put together my formula for DNA matches that will blow the odds out of the sky and it would take so much faith to belive we ever mutated from a single celled organsim over time, the chances are astronomically out of the world- but lets stick to the subject, u gfot any logical evidence to suggest God doesnt exist (ohhh, I got ya on that one, I guess, I assume yer answer is no) go ahead, try yer old "well God dont exist and prove it if he does" trick if ya want, along with any of ya, its still no logical evidence.

There is a god.
Anything you can imagine exist's, if only by virtue of having been imagined in the first place. Once you have imagined something, you cannot un-imagine it, therefore it will exist eternal.
you can imagine something that does not exist, but in doin so, you create it. Thus God created everything, he has a terrific imagination.

[edit on 29-11-2004 by instar]

u just contradicted yer self by this

"quote: And if the universe is eternal, wouldnt the universe have run out of hydrogen by now

Why? This could be the begining of it."
if the universe is eternal, it would have NO beginning.

Attero Auctorita
The one cause is god and the effect is all the material that is
Why is the only cause god? Or are you saying god is just the 'cause' itself and ceased to exist after that? And what caused the cause?

The only cause is god, because that is the definition of god. Who knows if god ceased to exist after it caused all matter to do what it does. Anyway, humans cannot comprehend such things, so there is no point in discussing such things..

- Attero

[edit on 29-11-2004 by Attero Auctorita]