Honesty - How do you practise it?

(an aside: Once again Dictionary.com blew up my computer. Gratfeul that I backed of this post -- when will I learn.)



Seeing as how - definitions are often cause for huge disagreement within the ATS community, I wanted to present a word that we all use with varing degrees of understanding and integrity.

I came across a very good definition of Honesty from an anonymous story in a collection of 'moral' stories I was reading. It went like this:



Honesty is lack of the intent to deceive.



Now from Dictionary.com we get the following:

dictionary.reference.com...

hon·es·ty [on-uh-stee] Show IPA
noun, plural hon·es·ties.
1.
the quality or fact of being honest; uprightness and fairness.
2.
truthfulness, sincerity, or frankness.
3.
freedom from deceit or fraud.
4.
Botany . a plant, Lunaria annua, of the mustard family, having clusters of purple flowers and semitransparent, satiny pods.
5.
Obsolete , chastity.
Relevant Questions
How To Teach Honesty To Preschoolers
What Is Honesty?
What Is The Relationship Between Confidence And Honesty?
Wheres The Honesty?
Origin:
1300–50; Middle English honeste < Middle French < Latin honestās. See honest, -ty2

Related forms
o·ver·hon·es·ty, noun

Synonyms
1. integrity, probity, rectitude. See honor. 2. candor, veracity.

Antonyms
1. dishonesty.
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2014.
Cite This Source | Link To Honesty
Collins
World English Dictionary
honesty (ˈɒnɪstɪ)

— n , pl -ties
1. the condition of being honest
2. sincerity or fairness
3. archaic virtue or respect
4. moonwort , Also called: satinpod a purple-flowered SE European plant, Lunaria annua, cultivated for its flattened silvery pods, which are used for indoor decoration: family Brassicaceae (crucifers)

Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009
Cite This Source
Etymonline
Word Origin & History



honesty
early 14c., from O.Fr. honesté, from L. honestatem (nom. honestas) "honor, honesty," from honestus (see honest). In English, the word originally had more to do with honor than honest.
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper


I highlighted the last section to emphasize the vast practical differences in usages of this word from the beginning.

There is cash register honesty - that which serves the letter of the law and not the spirit which I find predominant in Western society as promoted by lawyers (Most of our polititcians are lawyers, i.e. Lawyer Bill Clinton's famous "I did not have sex with that woman" was an entirely definition driven example of this type of Honesty).

There is the 'little white lie' Honesty i.e. "Tell them I just stepped into the shower", putting your shoed toe into the shower as you say it.

Then there is the lie of omission that most of us use at work on occassion. I.E. the lie of the Buddist Monk to the authorities chasing an excaped woman, "Do I look like the kind of man who would harbour a fugitive?"

The list is endless.

Honesty is the absence of intent to deceive.

What working definition of Honesty do you use?
When do you violate it? And are you honest with yourself about it or do you justify your action?
Are you honest in situations that are difficult to be?


You all get the idea - and the challenge: LOL - be honest with us.

I have lied about a lot of things in my life. I'm not proud of it either.

I have even on occasion found myself lying about things that don't matter.

Within the past six months, I've been trying to become more honest. Not only with others, but with myself.

There. I was honest. :-)

a reply to: FyreByrd

my answer: By telling the truth wether it hurts or not.

It gets ruined the minute you start to sugar coat it for the benefit of yourself and others..
Most my friends will tell you that I am a ICECOLD A-Hole, hence my username. But the upside is that my loyalty is amazing, most my friends will tell you that too.

originally posted by: andr3w68
I have lied about a lot of things in my life. I'm not proud of it either.

I have even on occasion found myself lying about things that don't matter.

Within the past six months, I've been trying to become more honest. Not only with others, but with myself.

There. I was honest. :-)

I think lying when it doesn't matter, for convenience may be the hardest to stop. Saying you have other plans when in honestity you don't want to go, is hard. And I justify it by telling myself (self dishonesty) that I don't want to hurt the other's feelings when it's me not wanting to be disliked or whatever.

It's a tough one - but it does pay off with time and practise.

There is a Buddist story/myth/saying/promise that if everything you say (don't know about think) is honest for ten full years that anything you say with become true.

Thanks

We all make mistakes, but not all of us admit them. A reputation for being honest is what makes one honorable. Like if you stand up to your mistakes or lies or whatever. If you eat that crow and do it humbly, admitting your error in company. That develops a trust among others for your demeanor over time. He is honorable, you can trust him.

Laying down your life for others is the highest honor.

imho

a reply to: FyreByrd

My ten years are starting now. Lets see if this works.

I'll give an update in 2024 if we are still alive by then. :-)

Telling lies to get out of doing things is one of my major problems. If someone needs help I wont back out with a lie, but if it is something where I'm not needed, and I don't feel like going I make something up(not any more though :-)).

You are correct in saying that it is hard to stop. I caught myself doing it yesterday. Bad Andrew.....

a reply to: FyreByrd

When I was a young'n I lied all the time about the stupidest most asinine things. Like personal anecdotes and experiences. As I grew older I realized how pointless it all was and began making a conscious effort to be truthful. It wasn't easy, especially when you found yourself in the midst of a tall tale and realized you were talking out of your ass and you had to either continue the big fish story or be honest. Nowadays I don't tell stories like that and I feel ashamed about the ones I did tell. Honesty has become one of the core principles of my personal "Honor Code" and I (almost) never lie anymore at all especially about stupid stories that I would only embellish to try and impress people, so freaking stupid.

Kallisti

a reply to: CagliostroTheGreat


Thanks for telling my story for me!! Next rounds on me....

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: CagliostroTheGreat


Thanks for telling my story for me!! Next rounds on me....

Thank you my good man

*holds glass up*

But, we are taught as children the world is full of liars, trying to BS us all to get what they want. For example a mother will say "Here comes the aeroplane zooommmmmmm" and the little baby is not amused by this tomfoolery, he is thinking "It's a friggen spoon with 99 cent mushed store bought goop on it. Nothing like an 'aeroplane' oh mother dear..."

His baby-brain clicks as the neighbour knocks at the door straightening his collar... But his stupid baby-body and baby-brain deceives him and his thoughts of clarity as he chuckles to himself at mothers lack of self control, at which moment mother jabs in the last spoonful - swoops him up with one hand and has him back in the nursery cot in seconds. Her apron removed and dress straightened as she rushes from the room the bewildered baby sits up in the dark, cold apple mush on his chin still. He hears a cork popping and a clink of glasses.

His baby-face enters the arena, and screws up into a tight ball. His eyebrows try to touch in the middle. Then, the game changes ever so slightly and the baby lets out an all-mighty waaaaa-waaaaa.


Everybody in this game of life is a deceiver, honor sometimes it seems to me is a myth. The neighbour still smiles and nods to the hubby when he gets home, safely back on his side of the fence. The mother is well at it... Even the baby who now sit's in his cot a 1/2 inch taller is in on it. The hubby has probably just eaten his third chocolate bar (forbidden by the wife for health reasons) in his car at work. It's just an ingrained human trait taught from day dot that sometimes it's acceptable to fool and deceive to enhance the self.


So, yeah, it is indeed a lack of intent to deceive. A myth.

originally posted by: CagliostroTheGreat
a reply to: FyreByrd

When I was a young'n I lied all the time about the stupidest most asinine things. Like personal anecdotes and experiences. As I grew older I realized how pointless it all was and began making a conscious effort to be truthful. It wasn't easy, especially when you found yourself in the midst of a tall tale and realized you were talking out of your ass and you had to either continue the big fish story or be honest. Nowadays I don't tell stories like that and I feel ashamed about the ones I did tell. Honesty has become one of the core principles of my personal "Honor Code" and I (almost) never lie anymore at all especially about stupid stories that I would only embellish to try and impress people, so freaking stupid.

Kallisti

Well if lying is an intent to deceive and your intent was merely to entertain, then you might actually have been a better person by lying! Of course you could be lying now and your admission could just be more entertainment. In which case I can only say, thanks!

a reply to: FyreByrd

I dunno. When I first read your post, I didn't really get it. I have always had a 'thing' about lying. It has always deeply distrubed me, mainly because I have been lied about, and that just infuriates me. From a very young age, I simply decided to treat people how I wanted to be treated. I lied to my parents as a very young child, speaking 6-7 years old, or so. By the time I was 8 or so, I realized how damaging lies could be. I had an older brother and sister that lied about me constantly to get me in trouble. Trouble, for me was severe. My father had a canoe paddle, which had the handle sawed off so it was just long enough to grip it. This was used to beat us.

Today, this would be considered child abuse, and he would likely go to prison for it. This was what led to my lying to begin with, fear of that paddle. I soon discovered telling the truth brought much lesser ramifications, and much less paddle.

I got a 'U' on my report card in elementary school once, in conduct. I hid my report card from my parents out of fear. I got a beating with the paddle, not for hiding the report card so much as getting the 'U'. No one ever asked WHY I got the 'U', which was the main importance in the issue, IMO. A 'U', for those that don't know, a 'U' is unsatisfactory.

Anyway, the beating left me black and blue, deep purple bruises, and blood blisters, from my waist to my knees, side to side, I hurt so bad I could not sit down. I had a doctors' appt soon after this, within days, and it was for plastic surgery, for my burns I suffered as a baby. My butt and/or the back of my legs was to be the donor site. The doctor pulled down my pants to look at the donor sites, to see which he preferred. He was, to say the least, shocked at what he saw. He confronted my father who justified the beating, "She came home with a 'U' on her report card!"

The doctor simply said, "I understand.", and pulled up my pants. The donor site was my upper left thigh, on the front.

Anyway, many times after that, my brother and sister would lie about me, and then literally enjoy watching me get the canoe paddle. I will never forgive them for that. Ever. The same brother also molested me from the age of 4 until I was 11, and he constantly beat me. One day, he blackened my eye, and I hid in my mothers' room until she came home from work. When my brother walked in the door, she confronted him and threw him out. He was never allowed back home.

However, when I attempted to tell my parents that he had been molesting me, I was called a liar.

So you see, in a round about way, I answered your question. I treat people how I want to be treated. If someone lies to me, I make them work a long time to get that trust back. In return, I try my damndest to not lie. If the truth is painful, I try the kindest, most compassionate way to talk to someone, but to begin with, I try to not behave in ways I must lie to cover up.

If I don't want to do something, I usually have a reason, ao I simply say no and tell them why. People that I choose to be close with should respect that. If not, perhaps I should reconsider that relationship.

I guess I am surprised not only how much people lie, but for their reasons. This really surprises me. Perhaps I am niave.

ETA - as the reason why I got the 'U'? I was terribly bullied in school because of my burns, and even the teacher would do nothing to stop it. After a period of time, I would get outraged and fight back. I was the only one punished. Go figure.

It's more important to the community that you be honest than it is to yourself. If the community can't rely on your statements and suffers as a result, its survival is at stake. That's why ethical systems usually contain some statement about honesty and admonish individuals to adhere to this code. To the community, individual honest is a survival characteristic. Honesty is for the good of the community.

To the individual honesty may not be the best characteristic to promote survival. An extreme example is someone being honest when they admit to a crime and being executed as a result. You may as well give the person a Darwin Award for being honest because doing so led to his inability to procreate (being dead and all.)

If someone is honest and professes this as the correct way to be, it is because the community has inculcated the idea into him, perhaps by threatening the dire consequences of Hell as a punishment if he is not, as a desirable characteristic of a person with "good character."

So as a survival characteristic, honesty has its ups and downs, depending on the circumstances. It's not inherently good or bad, but it is promoted by the community as a whole.

originally posted by: theantediluvian

Well if lying is an intent to deceive and your intent was merely to entertain, then you might actually have been a better person by lying! Of course you could be lying now and your admission could just be more entertainment. In which case I can only say, thanks!

But I think what C the great was saying that the 'story telling' wasn't about entertainment so much as self-aggrandizement. I did much the same well into my twenties (I'm kinda slow).

And Diernys (difficult to see your name through the trees rightly points out that we are taught to lie by are earliest caregivers with many "lie to you for your own good" lies. And then they start to tell us to tell the truth - well, you see the difficulty. It sets up a dreadful contradiction in the young mind that we all manage in one way or another. But mostly by doing what is MODELed to us rather then what we are told.

a reply to: FyreByrd (sorry, my name is a bit tree hidden, it's Qumulys! But yeah, it's a massive contradiction.
Mum might say to dad "can you fix the faulty light globe in the laundry". Dad gets up to do the task, meanwhile mum grabs the last two squares of chocolate from the pantry and gives the kid and herself one and makes a "shhhh" sign with her finger on her lips. Kid thinks, hmmm that was a clever trick, we have pulled one over dad and gotten a bit of chocolate, sweet! Meanwhile dad has taken two seconds to find out the light is fine, but uses the quick get-away to take a swig from the whisky bottle hidden under the laundry sink.

I don't think we can help it! That's why I think it must be a myth... Even trying to do something nice for someone to be honorable, is in itself dishonorable because we do it because it makes us feel better in ourselves... So can honor even exist if it's definition is a lack of intent to deceive? We deceive ourselves in trying to prove otherwise...

originally posted by: schuyler
It's more important to the community that you be honest than it is to yourself. If the community can't rely on your statements and suffers as a result, its survival is at stake. That's why ethical systems usually contain some statement about honesty and admonish individuals to adhere to this code. To the community, individual honest is a survival characteristic. Honesty is for the good of the community.

To the individual honesty may not be the best characteristic to promote survival. An extreme example is someone being honest when they admit to a crime and being executed as a result. You may as well give the person a Darwin Award for being honest because doing so led to his inability to procreate (being dead and all.)

If someone is honest and professes this as the correct way to be, it is because the community has inculcated the idea into him, perhaps by threatening the dire consequences of Hell as a punishment if he is not, as a desirable characteristic of a person with "good character."

So as a survival characteristic, honesty has its ups and downs, depending on the circumstances. It's not inherently good or bad, but it is promoted by the community as a whole.

I have to disagree with you on a couple of points.

1) that honesty is more important to the community then to the individual.

I think the willingness to be honest, in society, benefits the individual much more then the group because of the sense of well being and freedom that comes from not having to: a) maintain a public facade, b) keeping your stories straight with others and c) the extra energy daily honestly provides for other pursuits.

My initial think on benefit to society is that maintaining lies provides more stablity then truth-telling.

Self honesty is even more important - regardless of what you may say and why you say it, one is in danger whenever we start to believe our own "Stories". We need to know the honest truth about ourselves and society before we can make rational decisions upon the degree of honesty we want to express in any given circumstance.

I can be honest with my blankety blank inlaws about what I think about them but it will do neither me or my inlaws any good. I sin by ommission for the good of the relationship but I know it's a lie.

I was always told to keep my mouth shut unless what I was going to say was kind and useful.

There are times to take a stand, but without self-honestly knowing your own motives and truth - it will help no one.

There are times when you must speak out against deceit but without reflection and proper motive it will often backfire.

I'm getting off topic - sorry.

originally posted by: Qumulys
a reply to: FyreByrd (sorry, my name is a bit tree hidden, it's Qumulys! But yeah, it's a massive contradiction.
Mum might say to dad "can you fix the faulty light globe in the laundry". Dad gets up to do the task, meanwhile mum grabs the last two squares of chocolate from the pantry and gives the kid and herself one and makes a "shhhh" sign with her finger on her lips. Kid thinks, hmmm that was a clever trick, we have pulled one over dad and gotten a bit of chocolate, sweet! Meanwhile dad has taken two seconds to find out the light is fine, but uses the quick get-away to take a swig from the whisky bottle hidden under the laundry sink.

I don't think we can help it! That's why I think it must be a myth... Even trying to do something nice for someone to be honorable, is in itself dishonorable because we do it because it makes us feel better in ourselves... So can honor even exist if it's definition is a lack of intent to deceive? We deceive ourselves in trying to prove otherwise...

But it doesn't excuse poor behavior. Once you have seen the contradiction, I believe, you can begin to change yourself and thereby the world. And model better behavior for your children.

A pet peeve. Driving the speed limit. We all tell our children (well...maybe not all) to obey the law .... but, dare I say, most of us speed on a regular basis because we can get away with it.

I don't think Honesty is a myth, if that is what you are saying hence the discussion.

a reply to: FyreByrd

I'm saying that once we decide to do something honest, there is always a self-benefit in some form or another. We may not even be conscious of the benefit, but it's there none the less. Being human and feeling human is a game of chemistry, and our actions fuel that chemistry. If we continue to be dishonest, depression eventually takes over and we seek redemption by doing something honorable, but that action changes our chemistry by releasing endorphins. So, honor goes out the window. w1ndow.

I don't know what I'm saying exactly, but I feel quite dirty if the world has no pure honor in it...




(Sorry for the edits, I had to spell the word "w1ndow" with a 1 in it, because when I write it normal it displays on screen when I post as "_" . Mod's can you look into this?)

a reply to: FyreByrd

In English, the word originally had more to do with honor than honest.

For some of us, it still does.

I practise honesty because I consider it beneath my dignity to lie — at least, about the important things. I will break my rule to spare others' feelings (when the issue is personal and not one of principle) and to protect people — myself very much included — from otherwise unavoidable harm. I live in a very unfree country, where people have to do this kind of thing from time to time if they want to avoid a visit from the uglies.