Sick of muslim apologists saying `well christianity was no better`.

I'm just tired of people wanting an apology for things that nobody here was alive for. The crusades?? How many generations ago what *that*?

I'm NOT sorry, I wasn't there, I didn't do it. You want an apology, make a time machine....

originally posted by: FreshKale
Actually, you can. Particularly if you consider that Islam, now, is about the age that Christianity was, then.

You do realize the crusades were primarily fought in the middle east and many a great battle was between christians and Saladin a muslim?

originally posted by: BlackboxInquiry
I'm just tired of people wanting an apology for things that nobody here was alive for. The crusades?? How many generations ago what *that*?

I'm NOT sorry, I wasn't there, I didn't do it. You want an apology, make a time machine....

So I take it you get crazy at the mention of reparations for African Americans?

originally posted by: uninfluenced

Look, i too know most wars come about because of religions, but barring crazy cults, there hasnt been any major governments or countries directly killing people shouting `in the name of christ` for hundreds of years.

Catholic/Orthodox blessing of weapons was common practice during World War 1. Soldiers of Austrohungarian empire were forced to endure catholic messes even in situation where majority of them were atheists (at least Czech soldiers ). In various orthodox flavour denominations is blessing of weapons common even today.

Disclaimer:
I hate clergy.

originally posted by: uninfluencedAre you kidding me? that was 600 years ago or so, the world was vastly different, everybody carried weapons, it was perfectly normal for every major power in the world to have things like beheadings or hangings simply for small things like theft, it was a totally different world.

Just thought I'd point out there's some irony in the above by the fact that Christianity is more-or-less 600 years older than Islam, so if you're comparing the relative development of the two religions your statement actually contradicts your conclusion (that Islam is worse than Christianity).

a reply to: eloheim

I think that conclusion is faulty based on the following factor's.
The islamic region of birth and culture was more stabily cultured for far longer with law, society and governance long before islam came along.
Christianity on the other hand is seen from the perspective of what were litterally wild western blood thirst tribes whom where constantly warring until christianity came along and then the abuse of the religion itself as a tool of state and power to create what were litterally non christian cultures which called themselves christian.
I christianity for example there is only one king and one god (you can only serve on master or you will hate the one and despise the other) yet the religon was reinterpreted and abused to support the spurious claims of tribal cheifs and bandit leaders whom sued the term divine right to claim kingship and this has occured since at least the time of constantine.
Indeed if you had entered one of those early church's you would find the principle was almost identical to a kibbutze and so a socialist deism based around the concept God own's the world, (if you have two coat's and your brother has non then give the one you are not using to him), There was also a work ethic in the early church, IF? you could work you were expected to and to contribute, the priest hood did not exist in the later sense and if someong in the church was in need the church would provide, sound familiar yet.
The other difference is striking, in christianity man is made to work, the servant's of god are the angels and in the resurrection we shall be like them so we shall work for god, this is a little different to living in a safary park or zoo like an alpha chimp with females and all you can eat banquet's and more realistic in that god is the creator and has never stopped creating, we are to work for him accross the universe where he tell's us or in accord with his heavenly law's and the moral's we are supposed to stand for here but seldom do.

Indeed, these bad bad Muslims haven't changed much and continue to commit atrocities in the name of religion, often blowing themselfes up in the process. We enlightened westerners on the other hand bomb, shoot or starve people in the name of profit, usually from the safe distance of a plane or, in case of starving, with sanctions. If the people whos relatives we kill on a daily basis happen to fight back, we deem them terrorists and act all surprised why they might do that. And how dare they fight us anyway, since all we do is to take what is rightfully ours, it just got placed in the wrong regions of the world out of error after all. How the heck did our oil end up under arab sand in the first place, right?

originally posted by: Sirrurg
Indeed, these bad bad Muslims haven't changed much and continue to commit atrocities in the name of religion, often blowing themselfes up in the process. We enlightened westerners on the other hand bomb, shoot or starve people in the name of profit, usually from the safe distance of a plane or, in case of starving, with sanctions. If the people whos relatives we kill on a daily basis happen to fight back, we deem them terrorists and act all surprised why they might do that. And how dare they fight us anyway, since all we do is to take what is rightfully ours, it just got placed in the wrong regions of the world out of error after all. How the heck did our oil end up under arab sand in the first place, right?

And you know this for certain do you?

Was the terrorists wearing a bright orange jump suit with suicide bomber on the back or holding a banner?
How do you know someone hadn't planted something?
Breaking a window and blaming someone else.

Many are being deceived.
so many.
On all sides.

God sees no differences in skin colour, class or location and certainly religion.
He knows we're all from him lol.

However there are those who continue......still do crwate these divisions not realising what or who is coming.

Self professed kings and leaders sacrificing rhe lives of others for their cause but sacrificing fk all themselves.

We are not the enemies of each other, I swear to you, however we are played off against each other doing exactly what thwy are intending.

You, me and every single peraon regardless of skin colour, location, religion, language or class are unique.
We are all a piece.
A piece of a jigsaw puzzle.
May seem like nothing significant on our own but

trust me when unity happens we will be and are a masterpiece.

The key.
Unity.
Letting by gones be by gones and so on and so on.

Taking the Ops original view, I think there is a point here about comparing behaviours now and behaviours 500 years ago (and this is not just about religions). When do we forgive atrocities from an old war?

In this day and age, where the world is smaller than it ever was and individuals have open electronic access to various thoughts and ideas, no-one lives in a bubble any more. There was no such idea as Human Rights even 200 years ago, so I think the Op is right, you cannot compare behaviour today with all its outside influences to 500 years ago.

Maybe too, however, the "Christians" and their nations need to cool their actions and their rhetoric. Let's be real. For example, Bush the "Christian" illegally invaded Iraq based on lies. That invasion resulted in the deaths of almost 200,000 Iraqi civilians. How many right wing "Christians" justify the Iraq War AND Bush authorizing torturing people? Those are both WAR CRIMES. So drop the hypocrisy.

originally posted by: uninfluenced
Every single time (pretty much every day)
that there is a suicide bombing/ kidnapping/ terrorist attack by muslims, the first thing muslim apologists will say is `its no different to the crusaders`.

Are you kidding me? that was 600 years ago or so, the world was vastly different, everybody carried weapons, it was perfectly normal for every major power in the world to have things like beheadings or hangings simply for small things like theft, it was a totally different world.

So trying to justify things and put christianity in the same category because of something many centuries ago is ridiculous.

Look, i too know most wars come about because of religions, but barring crazy cults, there hasnt been any major governments or countries directly killing people shouting `in the name of christ` for hundreds of years.

There is zero excuse in this civilised world for islam`s attrocities, and when people go on and on about the `majority of muslims are so peace loving`, where are they speaking out against their brother muslims, thats right nowhere to be seen because deep down they too want shariah too.

So please stop trying to save face by starting every sentence about islam terrorism by saying `oh i know christianity has done similar in the past` because there is ZERO comparison to hundreds of years ago, to the world today. We are in a world now which is supposed to know better, and you cant put how christianity acted in the past and try to include it on par with islam today, because there is no comparison at all.

not sure, but there is evidence that pagan/satanic elements within the vatican (Dogon fish-hat-headed papism) created islam to wipe out the early church in the middle east and their access to the Textus Receptus (original Bible Geneva Bible/KJV is based on) which was banned from 500AD to 1500 AD… Ignorant Europeans, who did not have access to Jesus's basic teachings of love God and each other, love your enemies, etc, were then told non-Biblical doctrines that they could pay money or kill for sins (crusades) and Hegelian dialectic (divide and rule) ensued...

Walter Veith - (16) The Islamic Connection
youtu.be...

Rome created Islam - prove from Quran & Bukhari
youtu.be...

Did the Vatican create Islam?
youtu.be...


yt: The Forbidden Book - History of The English Bible (Documentary Film)
www.youtube.com...
yt: A Lamp In The Dark:untold history of Bible ~ Full Film
www.youtube.com...

It is absurd and ridiculous to listen to people argue over this when Moderate Judea and Christian values triumped in wars and dominate the world.People just make up the most absurd nonsense about Christians when they in fact are the leading people trying to help the world,through wars or through peace.

Religious people seem to have a low iq, that is for sure. Low iq beings are violent. The world is over populated with ignorance. I think it was darwin who said that people who were the least qualified to be parents become parents.

a reply to: mattsawaufo

While your own particular opinion has some merit among tribal people whom are malnourished and live in abject poverty the world over with nothing to hope for except there religious belief's it is my opinion that indeed that statement is absolutely wrong.
Indeed I would wager there are many religous people with an IQ at least 20 or more point's higher than yourself, but IQ is merely a test related measure of intellect and the real world and tests are two different thing's are they not.

Are you aware of boolian algebra, a simple binary mathematic's system used in digital electronic's, analysis and design.
A not not is not a not and a not is is a not, get it, You are so how do you explain not only the last 4.6 billion or so years of the solar system or the near 15 or 16 billion years of the time space continuae in which you find your own localized reality or indeed the probably super universe or super space outside it with it's potential infinite number of TSC's with there infinite dimensional, universal law's and structural variations as after all if it is chaos then how is there order.
You can not explain it and would be surprised how many very high ranking cosmologists and quantum theorists have found religion even if not a particular branch.
But then again maybe you are right and you do not even exist.
You know there are degree's in religous studies and those whom take them are far from imbeciles.

Actually, I've never heard any Muslim I know try to use Christianity's countless (and on going) atrocities over its existence as a justification for Muslim atrocities today. Generally, the Muslims I know feel very embarrassed when news of some crazy individual who happens to be Muslim do something crazy.
You know who I have heard repeat this over and over?? The MSM. And its meant to sound like a broken record excuse. But in fact, what they are doing is excusing themselves for picking every little thing some crazy Muslim individual does anywhere in the world. So out of 1.6 billion people, even if 0.000001% of Muslims are crazy enough to do something bad, the media will jump on it. And then once they have essentially painted all Muslims with the same color, they will bring some Muslim panelist who will quite clearly appear to make ridiculous excuses. He will say "oh, but most of us are peace loving (and provides no evidence of this, even though there is plenty)," and then he'll imply something like "oh, but look at all the atrocities committed by YOUR religion" further inflaming tensions between Christians and Muslims.
I am of South Asian descent, and I can tell you that the people there see both Christian and Muslim religions as extremely violent.

originally posted by: MarlinGrace

originally posted by: BlackboxInquiry
I'm just tired of people wanting an apology for things that nobody here was alive for. The crusades?? How many generations ago what *that*?

I'm NOT sorry, I wasn't there, I didn't do it. You want an apology, make a time machine....

So I take it you get crazy at the mention of reparations for African Americans?

I won't apologize for that either. I wasn't there. Yes, it was horrible and wrong - it did happen. But I, nor anyone I know was there. Nothing should be expected, and nothing need be offered. Period. Should I expect apologies from the Egyptians for enslaving my ancestors? Of course not...

a reply to: BlackboxInquiry

You of all people should therefore realize that to forget and turn a blind eye as has been happening since the end of the cold war with human traffiking is a bad idea, though I am a christian I share jewish ancestry in a direct maternal line but I do not see any difference on a personal basis between a slav, celt, west or east african, north african or arab and think Slavery is a crime against all humanity, that any culture or sect the condone it are enemy's of humanity and that while reparation's may not be possible any statute or idea of limitation on a crime only benefit's those whom perpetrated it.
Though the European slavery is only about equal in the numbers taken and subjected to the numbers whom the north african's took from europe in that forgotten slave trade period it happened over a far shorter time scale and decimated entire culture's and tribal peoples of africa so this forgotten holocaust (remember how many died on the ships and were simply thrown into the sea at the slightest sign of illness) must never be forgotten or we have learned nothing.

It's not that I'm extremely angry that people argue about religion - it's that I'm extremely angry at people! People do not have a heart. People are heartless. They use their ego first, and do not go by their heart. People are stubborn. Every thing that everyone says, every single word is a negative judgmental word that was created out of stubborn negative energy. Every thought that people have is a judgmental negative thought based on hate. They are so far away from their heart. They are so far away from their spirit. They are so far away from their soul. That every word, every action, and every thought that they have is a wrong judgment based on stubborn negative energy. They argue about religion, paying no attention to the fact that they are being negative and disrespectful in their approach towards humanity. They are hypocrites, because they prove that they do not believe, yet they believe in a religion and argue about to all the world. You all are so pathetic. You are all wicked. You all really worship the ego, you are submissive to the ego, and every function and creation that makes up your perception is within the ego. Can we tell these people the truth? Heck no. Can we teach them? Not a chance. The reason is because of DENIAL, an extremely common thing in egotistical people.

So what do we have with these idiots? We have a delusional stubborn hypocrite who is judgmental and negative. How can somebody believe that is close to God? So it angers me so much that these people even talk about God when they are so STUPID. Then they call me stupid and they don't say any reason why! You all are such idiots that I can specifically explain everything as to why you are wrong and then you lash out without backing it up! You were already dishing out negativity to everyone. You are a pitiful negative human being AND THAT IS ALL!

originally posted by: sheepslayer247
There are many Muslims that speak out against the acts extremist Muslims commit. Some of them are on ATS.

But I think we need to look at these atrocities as acts of individuals....not an act of religion itself.

So I think your assessment/grievance is a bit misguided and simply wrong. But that's my opinion.

I can only agree with this sentiment.

Religions dont cause wars, people cause wars in the name of religion.
People will cause wars in the name of whatever they can get away with. Be it religion, survival, "democracy", global dominance, race, delusions of grandeur.
Religion has no monopoly on war, and the muslims have no monopoly on terrorism. The biggest terrorist the world has seen is the US administration(regardless of their leanings).

As long as weak minded fools buy into the propaganda being fed to them, then we will keep having these wars.

Smedley Butler laid it out plain as day....."War is a racket"
Nothing more, nothing less. War only ever profits the elite. Dont be a fool and dont be led into the death and destruction of yet more lives, just because your fears are being played upon by those that act as "representatives".

Anti muslim propaganda is in full swing right now in the UK, not a week goes by without some anti muslim story planted into the social discussion by propagandists hoping to sway public opinion.

Funny how we lived in peace with muslims for over 100 yrs, now all of a sudden they are the spawn of satan.

Please, please, please OP, if you have any humanity, dont buy into the crap, being portrayed as truth.
Dont fall for the demon bad guy of the "fundamentalist islamist", he is created by our own powers that be, to dehumanise the muslims and to justify our own wars of aggression and global domination.

Its 2014, we are supposed to be getting more enlightened, but yet here we are, getting ready to burn muslims at the stake.
Sigh.

"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time." 4

Source Written by Albert Pike in 1871.

Sound familiar?

The only way to lose fear of the unknown(the elites greatest weapon against us) is to understand and learn about that which is unknown.
And that is exactly why knowledge is power...... the power to minimise the social darwinism of the elite at our expense.

a reply to: greyer

Sounds like you could do with a hug.

Then you can put away your giant tar brush.