News gathering to be illegal under Patriot Act 2?!?!?

Hi, I have been followin this thread all the way from the first post I haven't had a chance to read the full patriot act 2 but i have no need for I believe that power corrupts. I don't remember who originally said that either but its so damn true and there are so many microcosms of it that its hard to believe that anything the government does is actually for our own protection. In my opinion I believe osam and the alqaida are no more of a threat now than saddam. Why you ask? Because osama had dealings with the current bushs father and somebody who had been alive then is most likely dead now or on the verge of dying and is not wasting his limited resources fighting the worlds largest super power. As the other people have stated that the current government appears to be changing acts and bills right before our eyes without us seeing any of it how is it that we can truly trust a single thing they say or do. are they actually fighting terrorists in other countries or rooting out people that have paper trails to prove that its basically a new regime.... Did osama actually send tapes our were those post dated tapes dug out of archives who knows but what i know is what can we honestly do those of us with no power. For whether or not we are good people who have no power or just people worried about the things we could potentially be blamed for, we still have no say against those who command the army air force and navy. or for that matter the organizations we know nothing of. all we can really do is stand by and watch the progress and have our precious hind sight.

Originally posted by alternateheaven
Too bad it wasnt possible to get the actual text of the bill rather than summaries by someone else, as I think alot of us would like to read through and see what all is there. Its definately messed up to construe information gathering as some evil inte-grab for foreign intelligence, almost insinuating that the goverment would prefer domestic ignorance. If the actual legislation is anywhere near as vague as summarized here then we are all in very very deep crap.

Here are a couple of links to the full text of the bill

www.incunabula.org...
www.publicintegrity.org...

Be advised the PDF is 12 MB

Hope this helps!

Protection from what? Are you sure that's the goal, or is that just something Bush said? Hitler's stated goals were many, none of which was "rule the world", at least not until it was too late.

Sorry, but 9/11 was not our governments doing, it was a terror attack on our soil. When did Bush say he wanted to rule the world?

Hitler used many groups (like the Jews) that he blamed all the country's problems on, and said they are a threat and must be eliminated, which means he needs the "powers" to do it. He used terrorism as a pretext just as we do now. No one dared question him and ask for proof and evidence - they just assumed he wanted what's "best" for the people, to protect the people, so they believed him and let him do what he said "needed to be done". Well, you know what happened then.

Are comparing Jews to Al-Qaeda or another terror group? The JEws NEVER took down a symbol of Germany that I know of, as the radical muslims did when they destroyed the WTC.

What these laws are doing, is simply giving power to our government agencies. The question is, are they going to use these powers just to protect us? Or will they use them to benefit themselves, and manipulate us? So far, throughout history and the present events, it has been a LOT of abuse/manipulation/lies, and very little actual "protection", especially if the enemy is contrived and imaginary to begin with.

Uh, yes, power to keep us safe from outside threats. Are you so blinded by conspiracy you do not see how much other parts of the world want us dead, and will stop at nothing to accomplish it? Since 9/11, how many people have been innocently ripped from their homes? Any of your neighbors? You learn from the past, you do not relive it....

Who says? What makes you think that 911 wasn't done BY our own government? And what makes you think that there even IS a threat that we need to be protected from? Or do you not ask those questions, but just assume that what the government says is right, because "they wouldn't lie to us" would they? Of course, you'd then have to forget that most things they ever say are blatant lies, which are proven to be lies many times over. So why would one assume that they wouldn't lie about something big like the whole terrorist threat, or that they wouldn't attack their own country to incite fear in everyone and have them support any illegal wars and clamp downs on our own freedoms that the government wants to do?

Where are the passengers of the planes that struck on 9/11? I never said the governemnt never lied to the nation, but I do not see where it applies here. Do you truly think there is NO threat of terrorsim in the US? That is very diluted thinking.

Why do you think our own government caused 9/11. What was to gain. Control of the nation? They already have that...

WHO do you think poses a threat to your children? And what makes you think that? But how is this different from the way it has always been? What changed?

The people who scare me are members of Congress or others with your mind set that the my country is against me. It is different as that we were attacked on our own continent, and not an island miles away as the Japanese did at Pearl Harbor. I do not beleive in the boogey man, and I do not go to bed each night thinking AQ will kill me by morning. I am a realist who feels that at any time we could be hit again......

This �Patriot� Act II would never fly in the Senate.

Makes you wonder if there will be another �terrorist attack� prior to its announcement to prime the politicians and the people.

This �Patriot� Act II would never fly in the Senate.

Let us hope so. But then, considering none of them actually read Patriot Act I, how can we be certain they'll read Part II?

What? Liberals making up crap that is 100% false.....and what?....their blind followers belive them....imagine that.

I swear, you can tell a liberal anything, and they will believe it....as long as it is against the right.

I've just opened the thing, and read the first line.....I'm stunned, they weren't kidding, your either with them, or against them. With a swipe of a pen, they can turn a daughter of the american revolution into a foreigner.

Paragraph two.......intelligence is banned from the american public. Really, the print shop I worked in had a nice schemetic of our nearby nuclear facility that they got the priviledge of printing sometime in the past. After 9/11 I used to joke with them that one of these days, they were going to walk past and find three men in turbines standing in front of it taking notes. Just wondering how this paragraph would affect him...
Or people like Drudge who I'm sure has posted a ton of newstories on his page over the years the government wished would have just been left buried.

What's a pen register?

This is going to be fun!

We should all be helpful citizens and send this to our elected representatives in Washington with an explaination. We understand the the leadership of the houses of congress fails to provide you copies of such important legislation early enough to give them time to review it....(just look at the latest incidence, a little law inserted into the mass of papers that no one knew about.....oooops! That was discovered, does any of them know just how many other little lines have been passes through without their knowledge.)

Originally posted by superstring
What? Liberals making up crap that is 100% false.....and what?....their blind followers belive them....imagine that.

I swear, you can tell a liberal anything, and they will believe it....as long as it is against the right.

Those kinds of comments are not welcome here. No bashing of liberals or conservatives...

Originally posted by esdad71

Sorry, but 9/11 was not our governments doing, it was a terror attack on our soil. When did Bush say he wanted to rule the world?

By their fruits shall you know them. It's not what he says, it's what he does. What is the "ultimate goal"? That's not so easy to tell, but when one is slaughtering hundreds of thousands based on lies and deception, and when one expresses absolutely no remorse or empathy for anyone, wouldn't that be cause for concern? It was indeed a terror attack on our soil, but the question is - WHO were the terrorists? What makes you think that our government was not complicit in 911 when all the evidence points to that fact, their actions during 911 were quite telling, and their attempts to lie through their teeth whenever asked about their prior knowledge of this attack, their attempts to prevent any independent investigation of this event, and their cover up of very valuable information (like the video tapes near the Pentagon) means they have something to hide. When you put 2 and 2 together....

Hitler used many groups (like the Jews) that he blamed all the country's problems on, and said they are a threat and must be eliminated, which means he needs the "powers" to do it. He used terrorism as a pretext just as we do now. No one dared question him and ask for proof and evidence - they just assumed he wanted what's "best" for the people, to protect the people, so they believed him and let him do what he said "needed to be done". Well, you know what happened then.

Are comparing Jews to Al-Qaeda or another terror group?

The JEws NEVER took down a symbol of Germany that I know of, as the radical muslims did when they destroyed the WTC.

Why do you think it was radical Muslims who did it?

What these laws are doing, is simply giving power to our government agencies. The question is, are they going to use these powers just to protect us? Or will they use them to benefit themselves, and manipulate us? So far, throughout history and the present events, it has been a LOT of abuse/manipulation/lies, and very little actual "protection", especially if the enemy is contrived and imaginary to begin with.

Uh, yes, power to keep us safe from outside threats. Are you so blinded by conspiracy you do not see how much other parts of the world want us dead, and will stop at nothing to accomplish it?

What makes you think the threat is not from the inside already? Or do you just have blind faith in the integrity of the government? Why do you think so much of the world hates us? Perhaps it is something we did to them? Because once again, this would be true, the CIA has waged secret wars for years to arm/support all kinds of rebel groups and all kinds of revolutions and overthrowings of governments among many other things. We have continued to arm Israel, and Israel continues to commit genocide and illegal occupation of Palestinian lands. So yeah, they have great reason to hate us. But the question is, did they actually attack us, or did someone else attack us (like our own government, and Israel's) and then blame it on the Muslims? Well for that you look at all the evidence of what happened and why. And all the evidence points to our respective governments and their intelligence agencies, NOT any Muslims. This is not a conspiracy theory any longer, it's indeed a conspiracy.

Where are the passengers of the planes that struck on 9/11? I never said the governemnt never lied to the nation, but I do not see where it applies here. Do you truly think there is NO threat of terrorsim in the US? That is very diluted thinking.

Why do you think our own government caused 9/11. What was to gain. Control of the nation? They already have that...

Where are the passangers of the planes? What do you mean? I think there is a threat of terrorism, but it is not any bigger than it has always been, for all countries, not just US. Insignificant! But now it has been blown up so much out of proportion, it is being used as an excuse to wage illegal wars and to remove your freedoms, just as it has been in Nazi Germany. The communists have always been a "threat" to Nazi Germany, sure... but they were not an immediate or great threat, just a potential one. But Hitler lied, made them into an immediate threat by blaming the communists for the burning of his own Parliament building (Reichstag fire), and so he got emergency powers, which included the suspension of the constitution, for good. So just as our government is doing now, Hitler made the threat much much more than it really was.

The people who scare me are members of Congress or others with your mind set that the my country is against me.

Yes, the common German couldn't fathom that his own country is against him too. But assumptions never led to truth, they only made you blind to reality until its too late to do anything about it. The "country is against me" statement is misleading also, because the "country" is just a piece of land. I'm talking about the people in your country, who NEVER had YOUR best interests at heart. Not the "entire country" obviously, but those who pose the greatest threat to you are those with the most power, and it is those that I'm talking about. Your "leaders". Are they "against you"? Not so much against you as "looking out for their own interests". And if those interests don't include you, then yes, they will not hesitate to do whatever it takes to further their goals. This has been seen time and time again.

But don't take my word for it, look up "Operation Northwoods". Please, do yourself a favor, read all about it, and read the actual documents themselves (they are short and available online). It is a known FACT that your government planned to create terrorists attacks its own people and blame it on Fidel Castro so that the US population supports a war on Cuba. So when you think that I am scary because I have a mind set that your "country is against you", then you've obviously not seen how scary your own country is, because you turned a blind eye to reality. This mindset is not just for the sake of itself you know. It is supported by facts and overwhelming amounts of evidence and data, and it is available for all to see if one wanted to look at it.

It is different as that we were attacked on our own continent, and not an island miles away as the Japanese did at Pearl Harbor. I do not beleive in the boogey man, and I do not go to bed each night thinking AQ will kill me by morning. I am a realist who feels that at any time we could be hit again......

Yes, but who is doing this "hitting" and why? Muslim terrorists or members of your own government and Israeli governments? When you say you are a "realist", and at the same time your entire understanding of what's happening in your "reality" is based on assumptions and lies, then which "reality" are you a realist of? Not the objective one apparently.

[edit on 30-11-2004 by lilblam]

Well let's hope that the senate still have some good people in there that can see what our president is trying to do to the American people in the name or "war on terror".

I my thoughts are that our present administration took a horrible tragedy to pursue his own agenda, and now after all this time he has not finished yet.

And I wonder if news gathering is to be illegal what will happened to ATSNN news?

What we do in ATS is gathering news and discussing them. Right?

Thanks for the heads up on Northwoods, and I have read it. It was interesting and very scary that our country could have planned something like that. BUt it was just an idea, a think tank proposal of a way to enter a war, wasn't it if I remember correctly?

I feel that 9/11 was an attack against the US directly as a nation not just our government from the ISlamic rule that is in the middle east. THey caught us with our pants done, because we were so full of ourselves we ignored the intelligence and felt it could never happen. well, it did...

This is a war that has gone on for centuries, it is not about just the CIA ops and the 'tactical advice' we give guerillas who become freedom fighters who become problems who we then replace again. Like Bush said, it borders on a Crusade that again is waged as it was in the 1100's.

If the Patriot Act gives my goverment the ability to investigate and arrest those who wish to harm me or my neighbor or a child in another state, than maybe some rights will need to be given up. I believe it is a trade off for not living in a war torn country and bieng able to buy my son nice gifts at Christmas and not worry about rocket attacks through my living room.

Hitler attacked and killed millions of people, in his own country even, and had a belief of a Aryan nation, a great race. This is not what is happening in America. IF the Bush administration blamed 9/11 on all hte Blacks and native Americans in our country, and we began to round them all up and kill them, and then decided to hunt down the rest of the blacks and indians in the world, then we would have a analogy like HItlers attempt to conquer the world.







[edit on 30-11-2004 by esdad71]

Originally posted by esdad71
Thanks for the heads up on Northwoods, and I have read it. It was interesting and very scary that our country could have planned something like that. BUt it was just an idea, a think tank proposal of a way to enter a war, wasn't it if I remember correctly?

Yes, but this was simply to say that our government IS capable of coming up with ideas like that, and so if they didn't actually do it before, it doesn't mean that they won't think of a similar scheme in the present or in the future and this time actually do it!

This gives you an idea of the mind-set of our government, their lack of concern or care for anyone but themselves, and their willingness to brutally murder anyone who gets in the way of their plans, which can simply be the US population, if that's what it takes. So the question is no longer "is our government capable of such a horrible thing" but instead, the question now is "Was our government complicit in what happene don 9-11, meaning, did they orchestrate it themselves or assist whomever did do it?"

I say this because the assumption on most people's minds is that their government "loves them" and is incapable of such a brutal, murderous act. Well, considering Operation Northwoods (among many many other things that the government actually DID, not just planned), it is obvious that they don't really mind doing something like this if they feel they need to - just the fact that this was being PLANNED should be scary enough.

I feel that 9/11 was an attack against the US directly as a nation not just our government from the ISlamic rule that is in the middle east.

This is certainly one possibility. But why do you exclude other possibilities, like that our government was complicit in the attack, which may include CIA, the Israeli Mossad, the Pakistani ISI, etc. Why not the Russians or North Korea or China involved too? My point here is, why would you take the word of the people that care only about their own power and money, and would kill you and your family if they thought they needed this to cause others to support their own selfish goals? Why not do your own research?

THey caught us with our pants done, because we were so full of ourselves we ignored the intelligence and felt it could never happen. well, it did...

Did we ignore the intelligence because we were full of ourselves, or did we intentionally ignore the intelligence because we helped plan and execute it? Once again, this can only be answered through careful research and analysis of this event, and the results of this event, among other things. Jumping to conclusions, or taking some "authority figure's" word on faith can be a fatal mistake. Literally, if the murderer runs free, he is free to kill again, so maybe it's best to make sure you know just who the killers are?

If the Patriot Act gives my goverment the ability to investigate and arrest those who wish to harm me or my neighbor or a child in another state, than maybe some rights will need to be given up. I believe it is a trade off for not living in a war torn country and bieng able to buy my son nice gifts at Christmas and not worry about rocket attacks through my living room.

Great, but consider the idea that your government indeed WAS responsible for these attacks, or at least complicit in them? Because then you'd (inadvertedly) be giving more power to the same mass murderers that you think your government is protecting you from. Basically what I'm saying is, what if your own government are the ones who "wish to harm you or your neighbor or your child"? And I don't mean blow you up, I mean just to control you, to be able to monitor and control what information you are allowed to receive, what news you can read, what books you can read, with whom you can associate, communicate, what you can say, etc. If the terrorists "hate is for our freedoms", does it make sense to give the terrorists what they want, and give up our freedoms? Wouldn't the government then be doing precisely what "the terrorists" want them to do anyway?

The logic our government uses here is: You must give up your freedoms so we can protect your freedoms!

Makes sense?

Also, who benefits from this? How do the "terrorists" benefit from having the greatest superpowers in the world hunt them down and slaughter their people and take over their countries, steai their oil/money, etc? Who really benefits here? American people don't benefit either, their freedoms are removed, and they are conditioned by fear propaganda to be constantly afraid of an impending "terrorist attack".

So each time the terrorists attack, it causes a massive retaliation against the terrorists and their people, and the terrorists end up losing big time. And at the same time, instead of "spreading freedom and democracy", we are actually spreading destruction and war, and taking away freedoms from our own people in order to help the government better "find and kill the enemy". The only ones benefitting from this are our own governments, who end up winning out on the whole situation. Not only do they gain other countries, steal their wealth, and install puppet regimes, but they get to take away our freedoms back home as well, and use terrorism as an excuse to do so. The terrorists obviously do not benefit from making the rest of the world hate them, and their people - their cause fails, they just make very very powerful enemies, and a lot of them. But hey, our government's "unstated goals" succeed perfectly. They get more power and control at home, and more power and control abroad! So WHO BENEFITS?

Please read the following page for good analysis of this situation (it's a news report from Novermber 28).
signs-of-the-times.org...

Hitler attacked and killed millions of people, in his own country even, and had a belief of a Aryan nation, a great race. This is not what is happening in America.

Not at first he didn't. The beginnings of Nazi Germany were a prosperous time indeed! And Bush is convinced of the superiority of his own beliefs, and it's either his way or the highway in his view. And majority of Americans agree with him, you either accept "American capitalism and democracy" or you'll die. Comply or die. That's freedom American style!

IF the Bush administration blamed 9/11 on all hte Blacks and native Americans in our country, and we began to round them all up and kill them, and then decided to hunt down the rest of the blacks and indians in the world, then we would have a analogy like HItlers attempt to conquer the world.

No but we blame it "on the terrorists", who are undefined and anyone can be labeled a terrorist by the government at any time and held in jail without any representation or rights, and the government doesn't need any supporting evidence either! But overall, Palestinians and Muslims are being used as scapegoats for many problems in the world, and the terrorists are supposedly "muslim extremists". And many Americans are being more and more acclimated towards a general dislike of Arabs/Muslims, and are developing a distrust and uneasiness about them, if not downright fear and hate, which in many cases it already is. Also, the Jews in Israel see the Palestinians in the same way that the Nazis saw the Jews! And I'm not exaggerating at all here.

Remember also that Hitler didn't go just after the Jews. He went after the Communists and many other "groups" of people, whether joined by common race, common philosophy, or anything else that he didn't like. They were also considered "terrorists" and therefore the people grew to distrust and fear them, whoever they may be - and the Nazis alone had the power to label anyone or any group as terrorists, without any supporting evidence, and without being questioned by the populace.

Iraq is now resembling Poland during beginning of Nazi conquest of Europe. Our rights at home are being taken away in the name of "security". And just like the Nazis had their Parliament burned down, we had our WTC burned down. The Bush regime is in the process of remodeling the entire CIA, and is firing everyone who does not agree with their view of the world and how it should be. The Nazis did the same! Remember, we're looking not at WWII, but at the beginnings of Nazi Germany, how it all came about and was seemlessly executed, all the while having people believe something which was the opposite of what was the truth. The same as is happening NOW in America. The fact that the entire country does not realise it doesn't mean it's not happening, as is shown by the fact that that the vast majority of Germans never fathomed the fact that Hitler wasn't a great man who loved everyone and just wanted what's best for them. And all the evidence points straight to the fact that we're heading towards an oppressive dictatorship-like regime, and all that's happening now is based on outright light, and the truth seems to be the opposite of what we're told. It's not a "cooky-conspiracy theory" - how would the conspiracy theorists benefit from thinking that their own government is a brutal mass-murdering pack of psychopaths out to rule the world? It's a lot more "cozy" and "comfortable" to believe the opposite, that your government only has your best intentions at heart. But history shows that's practically NEVER the case with governments. Worse, facts show that it is obviously NOT the case with this government either, but very few are willing to give up their "warm and cozy and comfortable" world-view and consider the possibility of something else. The official 9-11 story is a lie, the reasons for our wars are lies, the promises Bush made about creating "freedom and democracy" are lies, etc. All this is supported by facts, which are there for anyone to see if they only spend the time to look.

So there was much much more that happened in Nazi Germany than just "The Holocaust" or "blaming all their problems on the Jews". There are so many more correlations that I haven't mentioned here, it's mind-staggering! And as usual, people will not see this until it's too late, and we're in an open dictatorship, for "our own security". People will willingly give up their freedoms and their own democracy to be "protected" from a fantom threat, from an illusion created by their own government to incite fear and subservience, and to unify the people to make them support the psychopathic goals of their governments, without question.

This has been done again and again throughout history. Welcome to the 4th Reich