German student Diren Dede killed in 'castle doctrine' case

It is starting to get out of hand in the states. The the `stand your ground law` and `Castle Doctrine` has got to have some limits. People are getting shot and killed without any sense of civil justice what so ever. It seems any psycho with a gun and shoot and kill anyone they want simply because they say they were scared. This case is really bad once you read the details. The shooter was setting people up so he could shoot someone and claim he killed the person who had broken into his home previously. Well, the kid he shot was clearly not the person who has robbed his home. He killed a smart kid who had no history of crime.

www.bbc.com...

Why was he breaking into their garage.

Simple question.

ETA:

I read up on this case, and I for one, have no interest in hearing what a German Citizen has to say about gun control.

www.abovetopsecret.com... existing thread for those that are interested in more info(think tis up to 6 pages now) just figured id post this for others who want to get more info (not trying to say close yur thread btw)

a reply to: freedomwv

The father of a German exchange student shot dead in Montana after he trespassed in a man's garage has said the US cannot continue to "play cowboy" with firearms.

When in Rome.

If we go to another country with laws saying that all women must wear a skarf around their faces or face death, we MUST obey that law. The same applies here. I hate the idea of taking a life, but if that person violated tresspassing laws, expecially in a state where such laws are that the owner can protect his property... then so be it. That person should expect such when he's suspected by the owner of attempting to steal.

Temptation or no. We bait rats to get rid of them... Hey, temptation is a mofo but you're better off leaving someone elses property alone. Theft can hold a hearty crime, including death. It's the same thing in other countries. We're just way more laxed than others.

If you don't want to open yourself up to laws in other countries... DONT GO unless you're ok with following their laws.

It's obvious that this guy was in that garage for something nofarious. It's not like he was going to knock on the door with the purse in hand at midnight and say "you left this out in your garage".

Mind people's personal space and this sort of thing will happen less and less.

The owner just followed through with his own justice. A justice given to him by the state laws in his own state. if you try to take that away from him because of stupidity, you're not doing justice to the laws already in place.

Don't start nothin... Wont be nothin...

originally posted by: StallionDuck

Don't start nothin... Wont be nothin...

And thats the simple crux of it.


By entering someones home with out permission (garage),

He committed the first hostile action, at that point, the home owner has no way to gauge intent, other than a Hostile intruder (someone willing to violate anothers property with out consent) Is on the premises.


He met said intruder with in the limits of the law.

IF the intruder, had not made the first action, none of this, would of happened.

a reply to: freedomwv



I am very pro gun rights. I think you should be able to own and carry weapons of all kinds without registration of any kind.



That being said the law should be that you can only use deadly force if life is in danger. Property theft and trespassing are not reasons for deadly force. Someone stealing property does not deserve to die.



I love how all the anti gun nut jobs think all gun rights people believe the same things about the use of deadly force.

Really I don't see the injustice - for all the owner knew the kid might have been there to kill his family. Protecting your family is as American as apple pie (and torture).

a reply to: freedomwv

From the article:

On the night of the shooting, Mr Kaarma and his partner Janelle Pflager left their garage door open, and Ms Pflager left her purse in the garage in order to bait intruders, she told police.

That doesn't sound like someone in fear of their own safety. Sounds more like baiting the trap just to shoot someone. Granted the kid shouldn't have been in the garage but the owners shouldn't be setting up for an ambush either.

Two wrongs in this case. Bad all around.

originally posted by: Bassago
a reply to: freedomwv

From the article:

On the night of the shooting, Mr Kaarma and his partner Janelle Pflager left their garage door open, and Ms Pflager left her purse in the garage in order to bait intruders, she told police.

That doesn't sound like someone in fear of their own safety. Sounds more like baiting the trap just to shoot someone. Granted the kid shouldn't have been in the garage but the owners shouldn't be setting up for an ambush either.

Two wrongs in this case. Bad all around.

Yeah what the heck?! Baiting intruders???

This is where I just log out of ATS for the day.

a reply to: Bassago

If they were baiting, I consider this murder in the 1st degree. This is not about gun rights it is about right vs wrong.



You should not have the right to take life over property or trespassing. This should be the law.

originally posted by: Bassago

Two wrongs in this case. Bad all around.

People seem to forget that Legality and morality are two separate things.

Montana is a SUPER Pro-gun right state.

In Montana

Montana has a castle law with a “stand-your-ground” clause. Under the law, the use of deadly force is permissible to prevent felonies from being committed in one’s home or to protect against assault within one’s home.

Fear doesn't enter into it, its preventing a Felony, Grand theft would count as one.

So attack the law, as the Man was well with in his rights Legally.


Morally, there could be a question.

But honestly, at the point YOU KNOW there is an intruder, all this man did was gather intel before taking out a threat.


In fact, Id say he acted with a higher definition for engagement than the Cops would have, he at least had proof the man had broken a law and was going to commit a felony.

Citizens have been shot for far less.

Really unfortunate how that all played out and I'm a little iffy on the wisdom of baiting such a trap with the intent of waiting up just to shoot someone. With that being said though, the kid was in the wrong and shouldn't have been there in the first place. I'm not saying he deserved what he got but I also don't have a whole lot of sympathy for him either considering he entered someone's private property for (most likely) nefarious purposes and had no business being there. Cause and effect, unfortunately.

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