Eerily familiar...German officials say exchange student's killing in Mont. 'out of proportion'

en.wikipedia.org... comparable case from 1992 where a japanese exchange student accidently went to the wrong house and was shot by the homeowner. the home owner was cleared in this case of criminal charges but did not win in civil court to the tune of 650,000 k in dammages to the boys family.(i think this was pre castle doctrine as i believe that keeps you clear of civil suits) but figured some members may want to see a comparable case and its out come . of note in the linked case above the homeowner seemed very remorseful about the whole event

billingsgazette.com... e91c5e7f2f.html

www.clickorlando.com... 2014 seems to be a bad year to be an exchange student in the usa

Unfortunately some of these foreign exchange students are problem kids that their parents are trying to get rid of for a while.

Sal


a reply to: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: pheonix358
a reply to: beezzer

Kids make mistakes. This one has no chance to redeem himself.

If the homeowner had held the guy, he would have gone through the legal system and eventually been deported in shame. It may have allowed him a second chance.

From what I read, an unarmed youth was gunned down. Surely a single blast into his legs would have sufficed. Four blasts? That is wrong in my view! That is a deliberate taking of a human life, a young one at that!

P

Yeah, the poor young lad... Oh I do hope you get burgled... Multiple times please...

Sod the little brat breaking in! In your world he break in to peoples homes getting braver and braver, he may get caught and do a little time, get out, break into more homes, maybe he'll be armed this time so he doesn't go back inside! Maybe now he kills a home owner like YOU that cares for the little criminal...

It's funny, I've never been shot... Never broken into someones house so... I've had people at my door trying to force it open before, when I was young, pretty damn scary I have to say! I would have felt a LOT better if I had a gun to shoot them with! I'd have shot em tbrough the damn door too!

I knew what they were doing! I was lucky they gave up, cos the door was about to go, I even heard one of them say this, he was right... But guess they got spooked and left.

What about the guy in his house? What about him? Minding his own biz! He didn't ask or deserve to be stolen from and have his hom3 invaded!

Full force should be applied to house breakers...

originally posted by: RalagaNarHallas
en.wikipedia.org... comparable case from 1992 where a japanese exchange student accidently went to the wrong house and was shot by the homeowner. the home owner was cleared in this case of criminal charges but did not win in civil court to the tune of 650,000 k in dammages to the boys family.(i think this was pre castle doctrine as i believe that keeps you clear of civil suits) but figured some members may want to see a comparable case and its out come . of note in the linked case above the homeowner seemed very remorseful about the whole event

billingsgazette.com... e91c5e7f2f.html

www.clickorlando.com... 2014 seems to be a bad year to be an exchange student in the usa

Yeah it's unfortunate, things will happen like this, but it is pretty rare! There are more stories where people has saved thier lives by shooting intruders... I remember in the US there was a young girl at home with her baby, she was 18 I believe. The father had just died at christmas and 2 thugs decided to go their nad rob her! Knowing she was alone! They had a big ass knife on em...

They got met with a shutgun! She got one of the #ers and the other pissed his pants and ran!

Some people are bound to make a mistake, hell even trained cops do no? How many times they killed people when there is no need?

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

I'm kinda shocked by the blood thirsty nature of people on this.

You and me both. Here's what I see happening in many of these discussions, people are pro gun and pro self defense. People's brains trick them into thinking that they have to be pro any sort of self defense with a gun or else their other beliefs are wrong. I'm not saying everyone in this thread is having that issue, but I think a lot of people do.

Regardless of the law, you shouldn't be killing someone because you can. You should only start shooting if you are in REAL danger. Remember the guy with Alzheimer's that got shot when he was trying to enter someone's home?

Now I do agree that there are some very gray areas. People in here commenting that you have no idea the burglars intent are spot on, you really don't. I still don't think that justifies lying in wait with a gun and shooting someone that's rummaging around in your garage. Yeah if you make your presence known and they come at you shoot them.

The only things in my home that I'm willing to shoot someone over are me and my dog (and any young lady unfortunate enough to be in my boudoir). Come after a person or my dog (he's people) and you're done. You can have my stuff, it's replaceable.

I'd like more details. Were the burglaries on occupied homes or were people at work? Did the shooter stage it to look like no one was home?

I sleep with a Glock on the nightstand, have a kitchen gun in a drawer and an AR-15 under the bed. I'm all for defending yourself. Can't support laying in wait for someone and shooting them. Someone breaks into my place I'm going to make the biggest ruckus I can because shooting someone is one of my greatest fears. I know I won't freeze up if the time ever comes, but man I don't want it to ever come to that. I'm paraphrasing an Ayoob quote, "I pray that you never have to use it, but if you do don't miss."

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000

originally posted by: BrianFlanders
I don't see the problem, really. People have no business breaking into other people's homes. Was it overkill? Obviously. Was the kid a victim? No. You don't commit a crime against someone else and then get to be the victim when they defend their lives or property.

I've missed where it was EVER established, even after the kid was blown apart with 4 close shotgun blasts, whether he was there to do more than ask for something or trespass? The story mentioned previous break-ins. Did THIS kid do them? Does anyone know? Did the area break-ins come to a stop with the execution of this one? Do we know that either way?

Well, let's think about this rationally and try to read between the lines. How many times has your house been broken into in your entire life? Mine? Never. The fact that this man's house had apparently been burglarized twice recently enough that the guy was still waiting up nights expecting the criminals to come back tells me that it was likely the same person/persons. And it's likely enough that this time was the same individual. I would be very surprised if it wasn't this kid or someone who knows him who had previously burglarized not only this man's property, but other properties in the same neighborhood (according to the article there had been numerous break ins in the same neighborhood recently).

Assuming the neighborhood isn't a crime ridden ghetto (Maybe it is for all I know but Montana isn't exactly known for it's crime, as far as I know), I would highly suspect the same person or persons in most of the cases.

So. What else do we know? Well, we know the guy (let's not call him a kid. 17 is old enough to know better and Germany is another country, not another planet so let's not pretend he couldn't have known he was in the wrong) didn't belong in the man's garage from the simple fact that the man didn't want him there enough to blow him away.

Now I'm going to make an assumption. That is that this garage is/was like most garages. That it was attached to the man's home and that it had doors that were either closed or possibly left open by accident. But I'm just going to also guess that if the man is calling these break ins, the person had to do just a little more than simply accidentally wander in, having no idea where he was. So let's be serious here. The doors were likely closed and locked. Come on now. I have seen your posts around. I think you know that you are really giving this intruder a big benefit of the doubt. It does not exactly say but when they say it is not known what he was doing there, they are evidently just trying to be objective. It does not seem like a big mystery. If my property has been burglarized multiple times in the recent past, I would assume anyone who is actually inside my home without my permission has broken in.

I'm kinda shocked by the blood thirsty nature of people on this.

Where do you see anything bloodthirsty in what I have written? I acknowledged that in this particular case, it was probably overkill. But on the other hand, if there's a complete stranger who has broken into my home, I'm not exactly going to interview him and ask him if he intends to do me harm. If I don't know what he's doing there and he isn't supposed to be there and he has evidently broken in, I have to assume anything is possible.

I'm sorry, that's deliberate murder, not defense...

Some people have a really bizarre view of private property. This is quite obviously not a case of "get off my lawn". This appears to have been an actual break in.

and the story clearly says the homeowner didn't know who he was..WHAT HIS INTENT WAS...or anything else.

Which should be enough to make anyone nervous.

I'll tell a little story. My back yard is fenced in. There is a gate that is ten feet high and always locked. One night this past winter, I happened to look out my back window (my bedroom window) when there had been a fresh snow and there were footprints in the snow right there. There is no way anyone could have been there near my window without having climbed a ten foot fence that is there to keep people out.

If there had been no snow, I would have never known but that was the creepiest feeling. I do not own a gun, a knife or even a bat. Nor would I be eager to hurt anyone for any reason. But in that case, I had no idea who had been there by my window or why. All I knew was that they didn't belong there. I certainly would have called the police if I'd seen them. There's no way in hell I'd confront them unarmed and ask them why they were there. And if I found them actually inside my house, I would use whatever I could find to defend myself because you know what? You're exactly right. When you encounter an unknown intruder in your home, you cannot be expected to have any idea what they will do. Which means that your life very well could be in danger. I guess I'd have to beat them with a mop handle.

I expect to have the right of way in my own home. If you've broken in on me, you're the criminal.

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: Wrabbit2000

I'm kinda shocked by the blood thirsty nature of people on this.

You and me both. Here's what I see happening in many of these discussions, people are pro gun and pro self defense. People's brains trick them into thinking that they have to be pro any sort of self defense with a gun or else their other beliefs are wrong. I'm not saying everyone in this thread is having that issue, but I think a lot of people do.

Regardless of the law, you shouldn't be killing someone because you can. You should only start shooting if you are in REAL danger. Remember the guy with Alzheimer's that got shot when he was trying to enter someone's home?

Now I do agree that there are some very gray areas. People in here commenting that you have no idea the burglars intent are spot on, you really don't. I still don't think that justifies lying in wait with a gun and shooting someone that's rummaging around in your garage. Yeah if you make your presence known and they come at you shoot them.

The only things in my home that I'm willing to shoot someone over are me and my dog (and any young lady unfortunate enough to be in my boudoir). Come after a person or my dog (he's people) and you're done. You can have my stuff, it's replaceable.

I'd like more details. Were the burglaries on occupied homes or were people at work? Did the shooter stage it to look like no one was home?

I sleep with a Glock on the nightstand, have a kitchen gun in a drawer and an AR-15 under the bed. I'm all for defending yourself. Can't support laying in wait for someone and shooting them. Someone breaks into my place I'm going to make the biggest ruckus I can because shooting someone is one of my greatest fears. I know I won't freeze up if the time ever comes, but man I don't want it to ever come to that. I'm paraphrasing an Ayoob quote, "I pray that you never have to use it, but if you do don't miss."

No see I think some people are on their high horse when really they don't truly mean what they say... If you ro prove it right now, you stated they can have your stuff, afterall it ie replacable... Please post your address I'll be right rounr to kick in your door and take your things... I'm stating here and now for the record I will not touch you, your dog or any other human...

So... Let us see if you mean what you say!

Now look I already know you do not! Imagine if people knew what you said though! And knew where you lived! You would make a nice little soft touch target! I'd defo be robbing your house! I'd be round everytime you restocked! If I were a scumbag crim that is! And that is what happens a lot of times, the scum come back and rob the same place multiple times!

I'm sorry but I really don't see letting them steal your stuff as the answer...

But I do get that some people could be shot when they just made a mistake, it is unfortunate, but being soft with house breakers isn'thelping anyone, they just get braver and braver!

EDIT: I'd just like to ask, have you ever had anyone break in your home? You ever had someone trying to force your door when you are there alone?

a reply to: Meee32

Good point.

a reply to: HanzHenry

Where did I deny other countries have slavery in their past ? Not seeing them wistfully wishing for those days again though. But yes, I'm sure going back to a time when vigilante justice was the standard, as well as blowing people away for minor rubbish, must seem fun to you.

You forgot the whole genocide thing too, thats kinda the worst bit.

Another thing of note, I see people pointing out that him "laying in wait" is a bit much or wrong. What should he do? Go to bed and have a nice comfortable sleep knowing that any night now they'll be back! Going through his house, taking liberties! What next? Can you put yourself there, try to imagine that... It is scary and you don't feel like this is your safe haven anymore! It's not your home anymore because people can't just come into peoples homes!

When you get home there is that ahhhhh moment when you sink into your couch and you relax at the end of a long hard day... You are safe and comfortable... He didn't feel like that I can assure you! And you wouldn't either... There is a strong psychological aspect here. My bet is he couldn't sleep even if he wanted to.

a reply to: BrianFlanders

Well, let's think about this rationally and try to read between the lines. How many times has your house been broken into in your entire life?

Okay, I'm going to reply once to cover a couple because the million little factors, what if's, what else's and what for's are nothing but distraction.

I carry a gun. Like millions of other Americans. I'm under laws very similar to what he was bound by when he murdered that kid. You do *NOT* fire on someone who is NOT a threat. No ifs...No ands...No buts. NO exceptions. EVER.

It's called Murder.

It can run up to 1st Degree Capital Murder. It's no joke and people who cross the line can see their whole life end, right there, along side the guy who they may have been justified with....up to that point they crossed.

It's 15-life in prison, depending on the state and how good a mood the Jury is in, or if the Judge got happy with the wife the night before sentencing. The line can be thin or it can be wide, but the line is very real between defense and murder. Like this, for example:

Jerome Ersland, 59, an Oklahoma City pharmacist at Reliable Discount Pharmacy, defended himself and employees against two armed robbers, who burst into the pharmacy with guns drawn and shooting on May 19, 2009. Jerome Ersland returned fire and hit one of the robbers in the head. That robber, Antwun Parker, collapsed. The second robber escaped out the front door. Ersland followed the second robber out the front door and confirmed that he left the scene. A security camera captured the incident on video. A third suspect, possibly in a getaway car, reached for a shotgun. Ersland aimed his weapon ‘right between his eyes’ and the third suspect fled.

Now Mr Ersland was fine up to this point. Most everyone would agree. He was defending himself and the law supported what he did....until..

Ersland then returned to the counter and pulled out a Kel-Tec .380 and shot the unconscious, Antwun Parker, offender five more times.

Source

Unfortunately for him... Okla. court affirms pharmacist's murder conviction

People defend themselves and others with guns every day and are a credit to everything our nation is about. People also cross the line everyday and bring a bad name to all those others who don't.

originally posted by: Tidnabnilims
a reply to: HanzHenry

Where did I deny other countries have slavery in their past ? Not seeing them wistfully wishing for those days again though. But yes, I'm sure going back to a time when vigilante justice was the standard and blowing people away for minor rubbish must seem fun to you.

You forgot the whole genocide thing too, thats kinda the worst bit.

As apposed to now when there is little to no justice? I had a little problem with some neighbours, they allowed thier young lads to play football in the street, it was a tiny street with cars parked on both side, a thin curb which is where they played... Running up and down banging into peoples cars and stuff, totally inapropriate! I was looking after a friends car parked outside my house and I was worried... I asked the lads if they could go to the local field just round the corner...

A little while later I get the dad round ranting and raving like a moron that he quite obviously is!

The next morning I wake up and my friends car is keyed... right along the side...

I called the police to report it.... nothing they can do... No evidence... Total feckin bull!

The best bit is this family didn't live there, it was the grandads house and he didn't want the boys in the back garden cos they would kill his flowers! Oh yeah so just trash other peoples cars then! These ain't 3 year olds, we're talking 8-12. Booting the ball up and down the pavement. The pavement being no more than a meter across and cars right there!

These days I don't bother calling the police! They never do anything!

a reply to: Meee32

Cool story bro. Your woeful anecdote of a minor infraction will stand as testiment to the need for vigilantes. If only there had been someone who could have put one between the eyes of the evil paint scuffer in your tale, the world would be such a better place for it.

originally posted by: Tidnabnilims
a reply to: Meee32

Cool story bro. Your anecdote of a minor infraction will stand as testiment to the need for vigilantes. If only there had been someone who could have put one between the eyes of the evil paint scuffer in your tale, the world would be such a better place for it.

Yeah it's all cool until it's your stuff being damaged! It's always the way... I mean again post your addy I'll be round to "scuff" up your car and we'll see if it's okay... Now I'm hardly advocating shooting the lads and besides this isn't the lads fault... They played where they were told... But the dad? He desereved a whoopin! 1 for letting his kids do it in the first place and then 2 for coming to my house to give me grief!

I have 3 kids, I teach them to have respect for other peoples things! It is how we live together! Would be a grand place with people running round robbing off each other and damaging each others stuff!

But see if I had have whooped the dad, then what? I'm the bad guy all of a sudden... Just retarded...

EDIT: Btw while I'm "scuffing" your car don't you dare come out and ask me to move! If you do I'll get in your face and call you out! Then if you hit me I'll call the police and have you arressted. Oh while you sleep I'll come key your car too for having such a cheek! Sound okay to you? I mean really this is okay to you?

a reply to: Meee32

I dont think I could drip more sarcasm than in my previous post if I tried so I wont.

Did you hear a whooshing sound just then ?

originally posted by: Tidnabnilims
a reply to: Meee32

I dont think I could drip more sarcasm than in my previous post if I tried so I wont.

Did you hear a whooshing sound just then ?

So you are saying that vigilates are needed then? Or did do some good? Or had a place?... No I didn't think so... Nothing was missed here chap...

a reply to: Meee32

Are you willing to assault someone for the high crime of their small child scuffing your paint ?

originally posted by: Tidnabnilims
a reply to: Meee32

Are you willing to assault someone for the high crime of their small child scuffing your paint ?

Well this is the attitude isn't it lol... Yeah just allow criminal damage, it's all good... Tell me, do you not see the hypocracy here? The grandad has a garden but he worried for HIS property! While not giving a damn about other peoples! That isn't gonna fly! Also you think that they should damage other peoples property when there is a field but 2 minutes walk away?

You also think that if I dard ask the kids to move I should have the dad come round and get in my face and then key my friends car in the night... These were not small children... These were big lads banging and scraping against cars... Not to mention when they were darting out between cars to get the car when it was booted into the road...

This wasn't a cul-de-sac... Now, say they had have moved, and quit playing there, no problem, end of... When the dad comes round giving me grief at my house he's looking for a fight! Over me asking the boys to move to somewhere more appropriate... But that is okay for him right... I mean you are totally right yeah. People should just do whatever they like wherever they like and sod everyone else... Marvelous...


EDIT: All situations are different... If a kids accidently slipped and banged the car it is totally different to allowing your kids to play FOOTBALL in a narrow space while they go up and down the street hitting multiple cars along the way! It is disrespectful! Again will you post your addy some I can come do it at your house? I know you wouldn't! I'll also bring a loud stereo and play it all night outside your house cos you would love that too, just a bit of music... You wouldn't get mad at that right?

a reply to: Meee32

Answer the question, or do you not have the conviction in the many words you have typed ?

I can give you a different yes or no one to answer if you prefer, it puts you in a similar situation you are in now.

So, have you stopped beating your wife ?

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
a reply to: BrianFlanders

Okay, I'm going to reply once to cover a couple because the million little factors, what if's, what else's and what for's are nothing but distraction.

I carry a gun. Like millions of other Americans. I'm under laws very similar to what he was bound by when he murdered that kid. You do *NOT* fire on someone who is NOT a threat. No ifs...No ands...No buts. NO exceptions. EVER.

Sorry but carrying a gun is not the same thing as being in your own home, waking up in the middle of the night and finding a criminal in your garage with unknown intent. This guy wasn't at the mall shopping for chocolates. He was at home in a presumably locked house.

I (like tens of millions of other Americans) walk right past the houses of other people on a daily basis. And you know what? It never crosses my mind that I should break into a random house and make myself at home. You know why? Because it's private property. It doesn't belong to me and I haven't been invited. Doors have locks on them for a reason. You're not supposed to break them and go in anyway.

And you know what else? I wouldn't break into someone's house because I know if I surprise them and scare them, I might get hurt or killed and it will be my fault.

Whatever. This is one criminal who won't break into any more homes. Take the guy to court. Charge him with murder. Convict him. He was in the right as far as I can tell. Now if you can show that the intruder somehow just got teleported there for no reason or he somehow didn't have any criminal intent, I'm all ears.