Eerily familiar...German officials say exchange student's killing in Mont. 'out of proportion'

a reply to: beezzer

If it's to feed my family, for sure.

I'd like to think I wouldn't let things get to that point, but for many it has happened. Many of my countrymen are ancestors of people who had to steal food to survive.

originally posted by: AlphaHawk
a reply to: beezzer

If it's to feed my family, for sure.

I'd like to think I wouldn't let things get to that point, but for many it has happened. Many of my countrymen are ancestors of people who had to steal food to survive.

I would be willing to bet that many of those that stole to survive were shot dead or had some other form of physical injury from doing so as well.

dbl...dammit this is getting old now

a reply to: TrueBrit

He took reasonable precautions

Damn right he did!

Like I said, he knew his laws well.

Still doesn't change my OPINION that it's premeditated murder, even if he found a loophole to get away with it.

a reply to: Vasa Croe

And yet they still risked it.

Desperation does strange things to people.

originally posted by: AlphaHawk
a reply to: beezzer

If it's to feed my family, for sure.

I'd like to think I wouldn't let things get to that point, but for many it has happened. Many of my countrymen are ancestors of people who had to steal food to survive.

Then I guess. . . .

If you are going to break the law and steal from someone else, the take home message is to kill the person you're stealing from, FIRST.

originally posted by: AlphaHawk
a reply to: Vasa Croe

And yet they still risked it.

Desperation does strange things to people.

I agree...it does. But those desperate acts also have consequences.

This is what I am talking about when it comes to certain gun owners makling others look bad. I have a gun and somebody is in my garage so I know I am safe. Why would I go out and start randomly shooting into my garage when it could be anybody in there? Who thinks like that? If the guy is breaking down my door and I warn him to stop or be shot and he continues then sure I shoot. If somebody is in my garage and I am armed and in secure position then to wander out there and start shootings means on of two things I am an idiot or I want to kill somebody. Now you have a dead unarmed teenage kid on your hands all because you do not have common sense.

a reply to: beezzer

I have to chuckle, if the guy breaking in had that intent, I'd be applauding the guy for shooting him.

Really the only thing that bothers me, is him knowing the kid was breaking in and waiting to kill him.

Anyway, that's my only issue, apart from that, then I agree with him defending his property.

Kids do make mistakes and there should be repercussions but that isn't always the case. Many out of control violent people got there start as children. My brother was a violent child and grew into a violent adult.

Often families enable, they look the other way, make excuses. It's bad enough that families do this but society is expected to put up with them as well. People honestly believe boys will be boys and they'll eventually outgrow it. Maybe some kids do but when mental illness is the culprit it's highly unlikely they'll ever get better on their own.

School shootings/bullying/teen rapists are all in the news. People aren't so willing to find out how far teens will go. Maybe some kids are testing the waters, it's possible escalation is a cry for help but either way it's not good to be in their sights.

It's not just kids being kids it's gone beyond that. Violent behavior isn't being properly addressed in children, by the time they're teens they're running amok. Here's a good example of the kind of mistakes teens make today.

Teen charged in couple's slaying also suspected in 20 burglaries Read more: Teen charged in couple's slaying also suspected in 20 burglaries - The Denver Post www.denverpost.com...

A Colorado Springs teenager charged in the home-invasion slayings of a Fort Carson soldier and his pregnant wife is suspected in as many as 20 unsolved burglaries, including one involving an attack on an "at-risk" person.

Macyo Joelle January, who was 17 at the time of the slayings of David Dunlap and Whitney Butler, has already been charged in a September home invasion, and prosecutors say more charges could come. The Denver Post www.denverpost.com...

I can't ignore what I see in the headlines. The hubby and I were in a restaurant the other day when several plain clothes cops/detectives came in. My hubby saw their weapons. I have to admit I was a bit uncomfortable and just wanted to leave. With all the reports of police brutality in the news, it's kind of hard to relax around them.

I don't look at teens in the same light I used to. There's been a few in my quiet little town accused/convicted of murder. In our elementary school a student passed a note to a little girl threatening to sexually assault her and shoot her parents. Wonder what kind of teen he will be?

Just reading the topics post, all i can say that man could have as easily shot warning shot to the air and then ordered intruder to the open and down to the ground till officers came to arrest her. Ofcourse i wasnt there so i cant say how things have gone down really but this sounds like revenge mind state shooting, atleast in my mind it wouldnt be first thing to do to shoot who ever was in that garage and then ask questions.

a reply to: Vasa Croe

Shouting "I have a gun and I´m calling the cops" is enough to scare away 99% of the burglars. After all burglary is very low-level crime and in majority of cases the burglar is more afraid of the home owner, than the opposite.

It is absurdity in my eyes how human life has lost its value. For so many people losing some materialistic item or some cash is enough for killing someone else a´la I was sickened when I heard about the man who shot the prostitute whom paid but did not receive the service... No money or item is worth a human life.

Even for a gun owner shooting should be the absolute last resort, when the life is really threatened and there is no other choice, even then the shot should be aimed at knees or hands, so not to kill the person. That is enough to get time to either run away or disarm the criminal. If a person can´t aim that well or freaks out, he or she shouldn´t own a gun in the first place.

It is important to understand that usually the criminals are doing their crimes out of desperation. If you had no choice financially,either you were about lose home, were near to bankrupt because of health/college bills, you did not have enough money to buy food, take care of children etc. In the end, there is a low % of people who actually do want to do it, majority are doing the crimes due to the bad circumstances, because they did not see another choice rather than because they actually wanted to do it.

In the current situation, the kid may have been a thief, but we do not know why he did it. Maybe he had not had something to eat for days, maybe he was just so desperate. Is that worth killing him? I would rather blame the society for letting people even get to the point where they do not have another choice. If somebody gets into the downward spiral, they should be helped out, rather than kicked down even more or killed because of it.

originally posted by: Cabin
a reply to: Vasa Croe

Shouting "I have a gun and I´m calling the cops" is enough to scare away 99% of the burglars. After all burglary is very low-level crime and in majority of cases the burglar is more afraid of the home owner, than the opposite.

It is absurdity in my eyes how human life has lost its value. For so many people losing some materialistic item or some cash is enough for killing someone else a´la I was sickened when I heard about the man who shot the prostitute whom paid but did not receive the service... No money or item is worth a human life.

Even for a gun owner shooting should be the absolute last resort, when the life is really threatened and there is no other choice, even then the shot should be aimed at knees or hands, so not to kill the person. That is enough to get time to either run away or disarm the criminal. If a person can´t aim that well or freaks out, he or she shouldn´t own a gun in the first place.

It is important to understand that usually the criminals are doing their crimes out of desperation. If you had no choice financially,either you were about lose home, were near to bankrupt because of health/college bills, you did not have enough money to buy food, take care of children etc. In the end, there is a low % of people who actually do want to do it, majority are doing the crimes due to the bad circumstances, because they did not see another choice rather than because they actually wanted to do it.

In the current situation, the kid may have been a thief, but we do not know why he did it. Maybe he had not had something to eat for days, maybe he was just so desperate. Is that worth killing him? I would rather blame the society for letting people even get to the point where they do not have another choice. If somebody gets into the downward spiral, they should be helped out, rather than kicked down even more or killed because of it.

The kid made a choice just as the man that shot him made a choice. Not saying the homeowners choice was correct, but it was the kid/intruders choice that led to the events.

Again, sucks if he was a criminal out of necessity, but if you are going to be a criminal then you should expect the worst.

dbl again...this is getting old.

From what I remember from somewhere, he did the preparations mentioned but also had a bait purse on back of car in garage. The bait and his statements to shoot someone will probably get him convicted.

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: Vasa Croe

I'm seeing more of the "victim" mentality among criminals (people who are breaking the law)

It's real simple.

Don't break into someone's house, and the chances of you getting shot, drop dramatically.

When did this chap break in? They left the Garage door open and fired many times the moment the motion-sensor tripped the light. It could have been anyone - family, friends, someone needing help.

Typical of the American "shoot first, ask questions later". In this case, it is blatant entrapment as well, which is against the law in most civilised countries...

a reply to: Vasa Croe


They might not have intent to harm when they enter. But once faced with being caught the fight or flight kicks in. When faced with going to jail for burgarly an otherwise "peaceful youth" or a "good kid" may end up harming or killing someone in order to not be caught. Kids have killed before. the type called "good kids" have killed before. we all know that teens dont use the best judgement.

Anyone that steals from inside another's home? there are enough people in the world, another thief wont be missed, not be me anyway. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

If more homeowner's shot and killed intruders then imo it would drastically reduce the amount of burglaries? I don't like people getting shot but I can also understand being afraid for your life even if the intruder is in the garage, especially when so many criminals have guns. I'm 50/50 on the issue but I also wasn't there so I just see it as a tragic incident.

I'm German. I'll try to explain the 'out of proportion' statement from the consulate.

The country this kid comes from doesn't have laws like in Montana, that allow homeowners to use deadly force, unless when a life is in immediate and clear danger.
Break-ins usually don't fall into that category here. We value life much more than damage to property or loss resulting therefrom.

Also, we have something called "presumption of innocence" here, which means that the motive and guilt of a suspect has to be determined BEFORE a sentence, or even penalty is enforced - and both only by executive and judiciary bodies. Everything else is considered as vigilante justice and is punishable by law.

Last point, firing 4 blasts from a shotgun implies one of two things here.
Either the shooter panicked, which means he wasn't fit to handle a shotgun in the first place,
or he acted deliberately to kill, which equals premeditated murder.

Now I'm not defending the kid's presumed tresspassing in any way and I don't know all the facts and circumstances relevant. Neither can any of you at this point, and neither could the shooter.

I'm not judging anyone... I'm just offering a German POV.

So he planned to whole thing, probably wont look good in front of a judge, did he feel threatened in any way by the perp, was there an altercation before he fired those 4 shots.