This Epitomizes Why Abortion Is Wrong !

a reply to: Char-Lee

Yeah it's reversible, I've had mine reversed twice, After having one child and trying for a second I found myself sterile again. Had to have another reversal to have my next baby. At 11 grand a pop it's not cheap though.

originally posted by: tothetenthpower

The whole life begins at conception is actually still under investigation.

Let me rephrase that for you... You've been trying to wiggle your way around and diminish the importance of the moment of conception for decades and you just can't do it.

There is NO proof at what exact moment, beyond 16 weeks that there's a 'person' there

You speak as if there is some magical moment during the pregnancy that you somehow turn into a human.
You receive your identity the moment you are conceived. How can you say you were ever anything or anyone else?

originally posted by: wtbengineer
a reply to: Char-Lee

Yeah it's reversible, I've had mine reversed twice, After having one child and trying for a second I found myself sterile again. Had to have another reversal to have my next baby. At 11 grand a pop it's not cheap though.

I think it is a great option for many many men especially the promiscuous type who leave unwanted offspring all over the place. Unfortunately they seem to think their manhood will be effected.

a reply to: adjensen

Yes, there is proof of the moment there is a 'person' there -- at conception,

Nope. A fertilized egg is not a person.

because once that kicks off, all that little cell needs to be every bit a human being as you are is nutrition and time.

Afraid not. There's a little thing called implantation. Most doctors agree that 50% of all fertilized eggs never implant and are washed away and flushed down the toilet, without the help of contraceptives.

a reply to: Bone75
A small cluster of cells is no different whether it is a tumor or a fertilized egg, without a functioning brain there is no person. When babies are born with no brains they are alive but they are not kept alive because they are not persons.

a reply to: Bone75

You speak as if there is some magical moment during the pregnancy that you somehow turn into a human.

And, you speak as if there is a magical moment too. There is no life fairy that suddenly bestows life where there once was none. Life doesn't begin at conception.

a reply to: Bone75



If you cant breathe for yourself or nourish yourself or exist by yourself....

If you are reliant on another to enable those things .... You are a parasite ....

a reply to: Char-Lee

Deny ignorance and watch this video

a reply to: adjensen

What magic happens at 16 weeks that turns a "blog of tissue" into a human being?

I could go through the very long explanation of what gestation is and how it works, but I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that it would not matter how much science I throw at you, you're going to believe what you want.

If she wants it, it's alive; if she doesn't, it isn't. That's the logic of your "life doesn't begin at conception" argument.

Nope, logically speaking it's 'goop' until 16 weeks. If you'd like to argue that, then please provide the scientific proof that the Soul is real and and that neural pathways start to form and express themselves independently of the life support system that is the womb, before that 16 week mark.

Yes, there is proof of the moment there is a 'person' there -- at conception, because once that kicks off, all that little cell needs to be every bit a human being as you are is nutrition and time.

No, that's like saying I just needed to stare at all the computer parts in my house, provide them with some electricity and a computer will form itself in time.

What was required was biological gestation, you know the growing of a person. Which starts from nothing, and then eventually ends up being a person.

It doesn't quite matter though, because of your personal views, it doesn't matter what science has to say, you let God make that determination for you already.

And that's the true problem.

~Tenth

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Bone75

You speak as if there is some magical moment during the pregnancy that you somehow turn into a human.

And, you speak as if there is a magical moment too. There is no life fairy that suddenly bestows life where there once was none. Life doesn't begin at conception.

Life in general doesn't begin at conception, but your life most certainly did... and your mom's... and your cat's

a reply to: Bone75

Let me rephrase that for you... You've been trying to wiggle your way around and diminish the importance of the moment of conception for decades and you just can't do it.

Says the person who believes that the earth is 6 thousand years old and that a talking snake ruined it for all of humanity. I'm the one whose trying to wiggle out of it am I?

Let's be honest, you aren't a scientist and neither am I. I've read about oh...20 or so studies about conception and life and came to the same conclusion they did. 16 weeks before it's a person.

You'd like to argue that? Do it from a science standpoint, not a religious one.

You speak as if there is some magical moment during the pregnancy that you somehow turn into a human.
You receive your identity the moment you are conceived. How can you say you were ever anything or anyone else?

This makes no logical sense. By that logic both sperm and egg are two separate, entirely 'concious' beings that somehow perform fusion ala dragon ball z to become a person?

Yeah ok.

~Tenth

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: Char-Lee

Deny ignorance and watch this video

How is a fetus more "divine" than any other life form? I agree that procreation is beautiful and mysterious but human procreation isn't anymore divine than any other thing.

a reply to: Bone75

Life in general doesn't begin at conception, but your life most certainly did... and your mom's... and your cat's

My life was contingent of many things, conception only being one of them. Conception is a chemical reaction, and not even the first one necessary for the outcome of a full fledged person, and certainly not the last.

originally posted by: tothetenthpower

Says the person who believes that the earth is 6 thousand years old and that a talking snake ruined it for all of humanity. I'm the one whose trying to wiggle out of it am I?

That's just lovely, when all else fails just attack his religion.

Don't tell me what I believe and stop trying to draw me into a religious debate. If you'll go back and read my posts you'll find that I haven't said a word about God in this thread, so all you're doing is deflecting. That's not exactly what I expect from a "supermod".

Let's be honest, you aren't a scientist and neither am I. I've read about oh...20 or so studies about conception and life and came to the same conclusion they did. 16 weeks before it's a person.

Studies? How do you even have a study to determine when a fertilized egg turns into a human? Seems like the very premise is biased from the get go. Who paid for those "studies" by the way?

You'd like to argue that? Do it from a science standpoint, not a religious one.

Again, why the baiting?

originally posted by: tothetenthpower

This makes no logical sense. By that logic both sperm and egg are two separate, entirely 'concious' beings that somehow perform fusion ala dragon ball z to become a person?

Yeah ok.

~Tenth

By your logic, before conception YOU were in 2 different places at one time. What kind of science is that?

a reply to: tothetenthpower

It doesn't quite matter though, because of your personal views, it doesn't matter what science has to say, you let God make that determination for you already.

And that's the true problem.

Nice straw man. You figure that my religion is the only reason that I'm opposed to abortion?

There are Pro life atheists and agnostics, you know.

"Science" doesn't say that something magical happens at 16 weeks that turns a blob into a person, and you full well know that it doesn't. "Person" is a definition that we apply, and as I pointed out, we apply it based on whether a child is desired or not, and to say that a child can be legally murdered in the womb because they are undesired, or legally protected if they are desired, is an obvious evil.

a reply to: Bone75

That's just lovely, when all else fails just attack his religion.

Don't tell me what I believe and stop trying to draw me into a religious debate. If you'll go back and read my posts you'll find that I haven't said a word about God in this thread, so all you're doing is deflecting. That's not exactly what I expect from a "supermod".

Isn't your core problem with abortion is that your religion compels you to?

Studies? How do you even have a study to determine when a fertilized egg turns into a human? Seems like the very premise is biased from the get go. Who paid for those "studies" by the way?

You'd have to read them yourself I suppose. Have you read any actual science on this, beyond what you were taught in school?

I'm not asking to be mean, I'm wondering if you are actually as educated as other people who have actually studied this are?

:

By your logic, before conception YOU were in 2 different places at one time. What kind of science is that

No no, I was poking fun at your logic, not mine. What you quoted as me saying is absurd, that's why I wrote it, cause it's absurd, but follows your original logic of a person becoming a person at conception.

Your right about my digs at your religion though, that wasn't cool. I'm not trying to bait you.

I just don't see a scientific view point to your argument. All I see is religion, well the OP anyway, and you've made no mention of anything scientific otherwise.

So sorry about that.

~Tenth

a reply to: adjensen

"Person" is a definition that we apply, and as I pointed out, we apply it based on whether a child is desired or not, and to say that a child can be legally murdered in the womb because they are undesired, or legally protected if they are desired, is an obvious evil.

Do you feel this strongly about breeding programs with animals then? Should those be stopped?

I mean you have a good point and I can't really argue against that, but there's nothing really to argue about.

Abortions happen, they will KEEP happening, regardless of whether or not it's legal. What I do know to be true is that if it WAS illegal, you'd have half that number posted in the OP as dead women who gave themselves abortions, or had some shady doctor perform one in some alley somewhere.

It's hyperbole I know, but you get my drift. Access to safe, proper abortions is necessary today.

I don't want any women to HAVE an abortion.

Here's a great example.

Source

This man, who writes laws regarding abortion was asked a very simple question. His answer might surprise the hell out of you.

~Tenth

a reply to: tothetenthpower

they will KEEP happening, regardless of whether or not it's legal. What I do know to be true is that if it WAS illegal, you'd have half that number posted in the OP as dead women who gave themselves abortions, or had some shady doctor perform one in some alley somewhere.

That's a hell of a statement and no where near the truth. The easier it is to kill the more people that will kill. If the murder of breathers were legal then the murder rate would go up.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

Oh, come on. Half a billion women dead from botched abortions?

The death toll had declined to just under 1,700 by 1940, and to just over 300 by 1950 (most likely because of the introduction of antibiotics in the 1940s, which permitted more effective treatment of the infections that frequently developed after illegal abortion). By 1965, the number of deaths due to illegal abortion had fallen to just under 200, but illegal abortion still accounted for 17% of all deaths attributed to pregnancy and childbirth that year. And these are just the number that were officially reported; the actual number was likely much higher. (Source)

Let's say "much higher" means ten times, so in 1965, 2000 women died from illegal abortions. That's fifty years in the past, so 2000 * 50 is 100,000 not half a billion, and even that number is ridiculously overstated.

Don't get me wrong, one person dying from an illegal abortion is terrible, but in my view, one person dies in every abortion. People who can discount embryos as being not alive, not worthy of life, or not equal in their right to live don't see it that way, but I do, and I do for legal, as well as religious, reasons.