United States of SWAT?

a reply to: xuenchen

I hate to be the disagreeable one, but....?

The story reads like a domestic abuse with an injured victim outside as they arrived with the guy inside and by the charges suggested, with a known weapon. Isn't that what we actually do want city SWAT for? So guys with additional training can get barricaded suspects or deal with hostage stuff?

Of course Las Vegas would make a story all it's own for how much law enforcement firepower sits within that valley and just east of, into Henderson and across to the Dam. Something tells me if they called for an Air Strike, they'd only be asked about authorization...not what they were on to think it could happen.

Maybe just me but the dept.of ed and food and drug need swat teams?Wtf!I'm wondering if this poop is why the government needed all those bullets.Isn't the education dept made of teachers and bureaucrats.What the hell are they doing with weapons conducting raids?Shocking.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

I don't know if you quite get what I meant tho. It's not an either or, and it was never meant to be.

Agreed, both State and the Feds were/are supposed to have their roles and I do believe that the Feds have over stepped in no small way. I'm not a fan of the feds, but again, the two jailbird governor's were put there as the result of federal investigations, not state, and citizens of Chicago can now own a handgun because of the Supreme Court, not any court in the state of Illinois.

Personally? I just want to see the Constitution honored

Likewise, Wrabbit.

Seeker said something about at least those governor's were jailed. It would be nice but I don't think we can count on any of our elected officials having a crisis of conscience or a moral epiphany anytime soon and just do the right thing. I think unconstitutional measures, either by members of the state or federal governments need to have real consequences. That won't happen unless the people of the United States demand them and a little more fear of the people is placed in the hearts of our elected officials, be they state or federal.

Both of them need to start fulfilling their assigned roles.

I don't think we disagree, maybe we both just tend to highlight the group that we personally see causing the most trouble.

a reply to: seeker1963

So I do see and respect your points and opinions......

As do I yours Seeker.

What do we do?

I don't know exactly. I do think any solution is going to require greater and a higher quality of engagement by the American public and probably some sacrifice. We've seen some small positive moves in that direction recently. We're going to have to get the crooks and people that smirk at the constitution out of office. Government officials need to take their fiduciary responsibility to the public seriously and fear the consequences of violating those duties.

a reply to: imwilliam

I don't think we disagree, maybe we both just tend to highlight the group that we personally see causing the most trouble.

Sounds fair, and in that way...neither group gets missed, too. It works, when we think of it that way.

I'm not sure how things get fixed and while what I hear of South Africa today isn't the best from folks living there, I have always thought something akin to their Truth and Reconciliation Committees would be needed here. A total change of physical names and bodies across the leadership to remove all personal B.S., and then, only then, an open forum of investigation to settle what's happened, before we can move on as a nation and culture.

Right now? I think as the perfect storm of bad intentions and just plain stupid bad decisions builds, whatever we do to fix the small stuff is like fingers in the dyke. The dyke is the BIG stuff hidden and quashed across the last 30-40 years, where names then are STILL names now. Look at the names of the inner circle to Nixon, Ford and Carter. We aren't still being hurt by people who followed or knew those guys. It's STILL those guys.

Change in both state and fed, we can agree there.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

I'm not sure how things get fixed and while what I hear of South Africa today isn't the best from folks living there, I have always thought something akin to their Truth and Reconciliation Committees would be needed here. A total change of physical names and bodies across the leadership to remove all personal B.S., and then, only then, an open forum of investigation to settle what's happened, before we can move on as a nation and culture.

....The dyke is the BIG stuff hidden and quashed across the last 30-40 years, where names then are STILL names now. Look at the names of the inner circle to Nixon, Ford and Carter. We aren't still being hurt by people who followed or knew those guys. It's STILL those guys.

See, if I understand you correctly, I think that's what we need as well, a house cleaning. I don't think short of that there really are any solutions. We've patched and repaired for so long, (and so often for the wrong motives), that we've really got quite a mess on our hands now. There is no point in having the crooks and traitors investigate the crooks and traitors. We need to recognize that our current governments resemble criminal organizations more than they do a group of statesmen.

Gentlemen. . . Seeker & Wrabbit, thanks for the conversation, though I'm loath to leave it, it's time for me to take the dogs out one last time and head off to bed.

Regards,

William

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

unfortunately, Mr. Bunny, sir....it's all for naught....

your cries will fall on deaf ears, and your words will fall on blind eyes....

REPENT!.....for the government bootlicker brigade shall soon be here to roast you, and turn you to a stew....

needless to say, i completely agree with what you've said here....but i don't expect this thread to end well, lol

Takes some serious balls to be a LE . Always in the back of your mind I hope I will not become another statistic and make it home tonight after this raid . With how the culture of firearms in America is It's going only be a lot more use of swat in the years to come with the growing public decent.

These officers really don't know what they are walking into is the person willing to corporate or is it going to be someone who try to fight and be difficult as possible or is it a lunatic armed to the teeth who is looking to take out as many before he is taken alive .


I was going to make another comment but Seeker1963 perfectly about this administration is just merely kicking it into high gear and more people are noticing

a reply to: Wrabbit2000
OK, I understand the complaints about SWAT teams, but what do you expect? You want your assault rifle with 30-round clips that spits bullets as fast as you can pull the trigger, and then wonder why there are SWAT teams everywhere. A guy in my "quiet" neighborhood got pissed at his GF, and started shooting at her with his AR-15! Guess what? The police don't want a fair fight, they want to go home to their wife and kids in one piece.

originally posted by: Parthin
a reply to: Wrabbit2000
OK, I understand the complaints about SWAT teams, but what do you expect? You want your assault rifle with 30-round clips that spits bullets as fast as you can pull the trigger, and then wonder why there are SWAT teams everywhere. A guy in my "quiet" neighborhood got pissed at his GF, and started shooting at her with his AR-15! Guess what? The police don't want a fair fight, they want to go home to their wife and kids in one piece.

THIRTY MAGAZINE CLIP!, THIRTY MAGAZINE CLIP!!!

what does a thirty-round magazine hafta do with anything?

you do realize that one bullet is sufficient to kill, in most cases, right?

if a guy is shooting with ANY kind of gun...as long as he's unarmored, you wait for him to reload, and then you take him....


you ask what do we expect....seriously, are you having a laugh?

we expect for the police to use common sense, and NOT use SWAT teams for situations where they're not needed...

a reply to: Daedalus

Just a note on that idea of waiting until someone is reloading to take them? I'd say this is general law enforcement training since the guy I got training from is local and federal for being a training officer there as well. However, it was drilled, hammered and all but physically pounded throughout each exercise to drop the magazine on a live chamber. Always always one in the chamber and drop with rounds still in the magazine, if it means erring on that side of caution after losing track of the count.

Your idea, is precisely why. So when someone hears the magazine drop and comes around the corner....well...you were topping off more than reloading from empty and it's a real bad day in learning the difference for the guy expecting an empty gun.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

Mr. Bunny, sir...

for those of us with above-average training, this is standard procedure....but how many average gun owners are observing these same procedures? keeping a mental shot count, keeping a round in the chamber, dropping a mag before it's empty? i doubt you're gonna find many regular folks doing that....

a reply to: Bassago

You are absolutely correct. Two of my kids work for the state and they were telling me about their "SWAT" units. Those guys are so arrogant and self entitled it's unbelievable. They are also feared within the departments themselves. Can you imagine having a team at work that everyone else is afraid of?

I only dare to say this but is sounds like you are describing the SS or Gestapo of Nazi Germany.

In the latter case the regular forces became (the Wehrmacht) became more violent, hostile and aggressive due to the presence of another force that proclaimed itself as superior, they saw the SS getting the shiny new toys and being highly favored politically and thus they became jealous and it resulted in the above consequences.

I can see the same happening now in America, your normal cops have got alot more high strung and angsty and have started to act just like their counterparts who were once considered more brutal and hostile. They felt jealous of the swat teams, the way they acted, the funds and attention they got (plus the power over civilians and the law) and so they have tried to become them, or at least the more changeable ones have. I think your two kids may well become scared of the normal cops aswell who will try to be the swat as many "normal" officers are acting already.

Evidence to this is more and more common:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: Daedalus

Well, I really hope anyone carrying a CCW license is, and if that wasn't part of their classroom training? Get a refund. They got the short end. lol...

Seriously though.. If I wind up in something for real, my priorities are, in order, end any threat about to kill me and then break contact as quickly as I can while being safe about it. Cops are paid to fight into a problem and they have MUCH better medical plans than I do.

(Not all cops are bad....contrary to how my thread can be taken. It's the pumping of military gear and doctrine which isn't good)

One thing I did learn in a couple places was what was referred to as the rule of 3. 3 rounds, across 3 feet in 3 seconds. That's the average (or recently was) for real gunfights in the US. (FBI Stats, I've been told) I.E... if someone is a cool enough cucumber to be standing their ground to reload? They probably had a rank at one point in their life and an average person like me just lost most odds of coming out in one piece, anyway. I don't mean to be fatalistic, but pragmatic.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

fair enough....

i wanted to give a serious answer to your OP though...my first reply was kinda serious, but more tongue in cheek, and i thought i owed you a better reply than that...something more truthful...

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
My God, on this Easter day, what have we become as a nation?

We've become exactly what we DESERVE to become...a quasi-fascist, quasi-police state...we're not COMPLETELY fascist, or COMPLETELY a police state yet, but we're getting there....

through decades of inaction, on the part of the people, the federal government has become FAR more powerful than it was ever intended to be, and now they're using our own tax dollars to corrupt the local police services.....

new training, gear, weapons, vehicles...all these cool new toys, and then they take these toys, and terrorize the citizens....i don't need a patrolman, dressed up like a SWAT officer, effecting a traffic stop...that's just out of line..

the people have been content to just sit back, and let the government do whatever it wants, instead of doing their job, which is to act as a check on government....the people have dropped the ball for decades, and now the writing on the price tag is becoming clearer by the year....