The Mormons: History, Doctrine, and a scary conspiracy

I recieved my patriarticle blessing when I was 14. I hardly recall it and am not sure where it wound up.
Said I was of the tribe of Joseph. Whatever that is supposed to mean to me I dunno.

I'm a mormon that doesnt goto chruch anymore if ya want questions just ask I'll try to help I remeber quite a bit

was that a picture of the inside the temple????


if so I dont know how you got it but wow

Originally posted by Lamagraa
I'm a mormon that doesnt goto chruch anymore if ya want questions just ask I'll try to help I remeber quite a bit

Thanks Lamagraa. I guess my foremost question would be: why did you stop going?

hmmm one when I was going it was close then I moved away and was working on a ranch and it wasnt feasable, now I have a child on the way and I'm not married the temple so dont wanna get put down on that.I dont like how sometimes they shove it your face (just a couple wards I went to)

an incedent at a ward we're there were non-members sitting on a couch outside the chapel during sacrament (the passing of the bread and water) and the kid was about to give these non members it and an older member told them the could'nt recieve it yet most of the wards I've gone allow this (he was just rude about it)

oh ya the buiding things go like this ward= 1 chruchh building for 140-260? just a guess. members depending on the membership of that area one town can hold at of wards depending on membership a stake is the central meeting build that houses alot more people like 1,000ish..

like the stake that i went covered like 4 counties alot of people there lol got hot

I didn't know if it was doctrine, moving or life change. People ask what denomination I am and I usually end up saying "I'm a Protepresbymethobaptist". Hehe, life takes us on interesting journeys sometimes.

I'll be glad to answer any questions as well as someone that was in the church and then left after a great deal of research and prayer.

saint4god asked me to take a look at this thread and see what I had to say, since I am a Mormon. Jukyu's description is reasonably accurate, although I have a few comments.

1)

Cain is cursed and sent away. According to doctrine this curse is dark colored skin, or essentially Cain became the first African. The reason that African Americans could not become priests was that they were said to bear the mark of Cain. Of interesting note however is that Mormons do not believe that the sin of one?s ancestors is passed on so this seems to be a contradiction

Yeah, it does seem like a contradiction to me, too. I can't explain it, although reserving the priesthood for a select few isn't new; for example, the Levites were the only ones who could have the priesthood in Moses time. Interestingly, I have come across cases of *white* people who were denied the priesthood because they had African ancestor(s), and also *black* people who were not Africans, who were allowed the priesthood. Not sure what to make of that, myself. I've been told it was a 'lineage' restriction, not a 'race' restriction, on the priesthood.
2) Noah, not Moses, built the Ark, hehe. (Hey, even Ken Jennings got this wrong on a trick question on Jeopardy!, they asked him how many of each animal Moses took on the ark He says 2 of each, gets it wrong, since the answer is zero. I assume you were probably just tired when you wrote that, no biggie)
3)

Another thing that just comes to mind is the question of Cain?s descendants. Someone a couple must have survived the flood

One of Noah's daughters-in-law was descended from Cain, and married Ham. This is how. Ham's son Caanan, was cursed by God. (Gen. 9:25) If you have a Bible published by the Mormon church, it includes a Bible Dictionary at the back, look up 'Ham', there's a bit more there about this.
4)

Of importance to the mormons is one group of people at this time, the Jaredites. They were a group (the sole group?) that stayed faithful to the teachings of god

I thought about this for quite awhile. There must have been other groups left in the Old World that were still believers, but for whatever reason were not part of the Jaredite group that left. Since people like Abraham, Moses, and many others were in the Old World, after the Tower of Babel, the Jaredites could not have been the only believers lieft, although they were apparently the only people who didn't have their language randomly changed.
5)

Abraham receives the priesthood from Melchezidek, a man that is mysterious in the Bible and the mormons speculate was either a follower of god or possibly an earlier human incarnation of Christ for the purpose of bringing the priesthood back

Mormons definitely believe the first one, i.e. that Melzchezidek was a follower of God. I have never heard the incarnation idea in my life. As far as the Mormon church is concerned, that is false doctrine.
6)

Abraham rises to some power in Egypt and leaves an account of the creation of the world and other texts in a reformed Egyptian script on the wrappings of a mummy. These are later found by Joseph Smith when the mummy comes to America and is the basis of the Pearl of Great Price.

This is about 99% correct. The copy found on the mummy are Abraham's words. However, the texts found with the mummy were copies of the original. Scientists used dating methods on the few bits of text surviving today, and have found that they date to something like 100BC-100AD, way past the time of Abraham. As a side note, some critics point to the header of the book of Abraham which states in part, 'written by his own hand, upon papyrus.' This refers to Abraham being the author of the text, not to having scribed that particular copy, much as Stephen King did not personally type out the copy of 'Dark Tower' on my shelf; someone else did, he just wrote the manuscript.
7)

The tribe of Joseph is saved through the prophet Lehi who under the direction of god takes his sons, their wives, a record of the books of Moses engraved on bronze plates, and the sacred items of prophecy from the temple (the breastplate of aaron, the ummum, and the thummin,) to the mediteranean. There they build a cube shaped ark with no windows and are transported to Central America.

Couple of small things here, nitpicking, really. Brass plates, not bronze. Urim and Thummim. The arks (or barges, as they are called in Ether) were described as dish-shaped, and there were more than one (just says barges, so not sure how many, only that its >1)
8)

After facing opposition due to polygamy, there was another convienent revalation by god ending polygamy and making it a sin. Utah was allowed to enter as a state but Brigham Young did not become its governor.

Actually, Brigham Young did become governor of Utah, from 1849-1852 (as a territory) and 1852-1857 (as a state). James Buchanan removed Young from office in 1857, over polygamy, which was still practiced until 1890. (See www.desertusa.com... which is a good unbiased bio of Young)
9)

One must be baptized by one holding the Aaronic priesthood and then obtain the Aaronic priesthood themselves. This is usually obtained by male members of the church in their early teens if I remember correctly

You remember correctly. Deacon at 12, Teacher at 14, Priest at 16. Then Melchizedek (that name is so hard to spell, hehe) Priesthood at 18.
10)

After one returns from their mission they are generally seen fit to receive the full or Melchezideck priesthood. This is bestowed upon them during their first visit to the temple

No, this happens *before* a mission. No exceptions. You are not allowed to be a missionary until you go to the temple (male or female) and receive the Melchizedek priesthood (male only). The priesthood is not bestowed in the temple, it can be done anywhere. In my case, it was done each time in my local chapel, except for the Melchizedek, which was done in my home with the bishop and other leaders present. There's no reason it couldn't be done in a temple, but I've never heard of this being done in a temple, except for some of the ordinances for the dead, where a man receives the priesthood in proxy for a deceased male (usually an ancestor but not necessarily)
11)

I don?t know if there are levels here but since one has heard of arch-angels it seems to be a good presumption that some angels are greater then others.

Yes, there are levels in all 3 of the kingdoms, Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial. The number of levels in the last two is unknown. In the Celestial kingdom, D&C 131:1 explicitly states there are exactly 3 levels. It could be reasonable to assume each of Terrestrial, Telestial, has 3 levels, too, but that would be a pure guess and uncorroborated by scripture.
12)

There is a fairly close connection between the free-masons and the mormons and going on this theory they were created by the free-masons

The Mormons do have some early Masonic connections, but none at the founding of the Church. During the Nauvoo time period, Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum did become Masons, and other Mormons were Masons or became masons later, too. For reasons I am not sure of, the Church today discourages its members from becoming Masons, although there is no rule against it. The secret (or sacred, not secret, as most Mormons will insist; I say they are both) temple rituals were introduced before Smith ever became a Mason, but changes were made along the way, and many say this was because he copied the Masonic rituals. I unfortunately cannot find the reference; due to forgetting the exact wording my searches were ineffective, but Joseph Smith was told by God that when the endowment was revealed, he didn't get all of it at once, and that more would come later.
13)

This was also during the Morgan incident and Smith was said to have known Morgan

I cannot confirm nor deny this. I don't think it's definitively known whether Smith knew Morgan or not. I'm not familiar with that incident; I don't know much about Masons. There is one person on ATS, I think his/her handle is Masonic Light, he/she knows TONS about Masons, maybe ask them about this?
14)

The temple ceremonies came into effect after Smith and others became mormons, a fact that was acknowledged by the church.

False. The temple ceremonies (at least the original, not fully revealed versions) were already in effect before this. I also assume that in your quote you meant to say 'mason', not 'mormon', since its obvious the temple ceremonies came into effect after they became Mormon, lol.

The official line of the church is that Smith recognized the ancient and divine nature of these rituals and therefore implemented them into the temple.

False. The church believes that Smith received the ordinances from God directly, not from Masons.

One specific example is the blood oaths taken by both groups. These oaths pledge the person involved to effectively forfeit their life though various grisley means should they reveal the secrets of the organization / church. I won?t go into the exact ceremonies due to copyrights but I will say that if you compare the two they are almost identical. One addendum, though, the church did change the oaths in (the 1960?s?) after someone released them to the general public. Now the blood oaths are not spoken but the motions symbolizing disemboweling and other means of death are still present. Finally from the past, when Smith died he was wearing a Jupiter medal, a Masonic symbol.

There were indeed blood oaths of the sort you describe in the temple ceremonies. The ceremonies were changed, but you have the date wrong. It was April 10, 1990. They removed all of the penalty signs and blood oaths. (so I have been told & read, I have not gone through this ceremony personally and, strictly speaking, am not supposed to know anything about it) Apparently some smaller changes were made sometime in the earlier part of the 20th century, but I don't have a date for that, since one isn't available, that I know of. As for the Jupiter medal, that is the first time I have seen it mentioned that he wore one. Some reports mention Joseph Smith made some Masonic signs for 'is there no mercy for the widow's son?' right before he was shot, but other reports have no mention of this. I wouldn't be surprised if he did; after all, he likely knew the sign, and if you knew you were going to get shot, why not give it a try, you have nothing to lose.
15) [quote[There is even a mormon doctrine albeit not a well known one that in the final days that the United States will begin to fall apart and it will be necessary for the church hierarchy to take over the country to prevent it from collapsing.
I've never heard this one before. We do believe that at the 2nd coming, Jesus will lead a kind of one world government, kind of like a benevolent NWO, but quote #15 I am nearly certain is untrue.
16)

Also you have a virtual fortress as someone mentioned in the middle of Salt Lake City with its own power source, independent water sources for every level, under ground parking facilities, a structure that could withstand a lot of punishment, not to mention an enormous grain silo with millions of tons of grain nearby

Dunno about that, I've never actually been to SLC. It could be true; Mormons like to be prepared for anything. We are counseled to keep 1 years supply of food handy, and other useful stuff, like might be found in survival and first aid kits.
17)

There is a spirit out there connected with this religion and it is not of God

I know this is your opinion, but I have to throw in my two cents and disagree. As for the rest of Part 4, well, it is all your opinion, so I have no right to critique that. I have heard similar stories to yours, however.

In reference to An3rkist's post, it is all correct as far as I saw, except for a few things in the following:

The wife cannot receive Eternal Life and advance to the Celestial Kingdom without a husband who is worthy. She cannot receive Eternal life until he calls her by her Heavenly name which she received in the Temple on earth. Also, kind of interesting, the Mormons believe the Earth will be transformed in the last days, and receive what they call, its "Paradasiacal Glory", where basically it will turn into Heaven. I can't remember if it becomes the Telestial, Terestrial, or Celestial Kingdom.

This is actually backwards. Mormons believe that *men* cannot receive the highest level of the Celestial kingdom without a wife. (D&C 131:2-4) The verses make no mention of women, but my understanding from talks by church leaders is that a worthy unmarried woman will get to marry somebody in the afterlife. (unmarried men can marry in the afterlife too, or, alternately, the wife could become a polygamous wife of a man who already had a wife/wives)
As to the other point, Mormons believe the Earth will become the Celestial kingdom. (as a side note, I spoke to a priest-in-training for the 7th Day Adventists, and they believe Heaven will be on Earth, too, and share a few other beliefs with us, also, more than nearly any other religion I know of)

Response to An3rkist's 3rd post:

Maybe someday the Prophet will call for all the Mormons to make a pilgrimage to Salt Lake City, living only off their seventy-two hour kits or something. Or maybe it's just a good thing to have in case a natural disaster hits and you need to get to a disaster relief base as quickly as possible. It would also have stuff like flashlights, batteries, a blanket maybe, matches/lighter, drinks, a cell phone perhaps, anything you think would be necessary for one.

I think its a good idea for anyone to have basic survival stuff in their house, regardless of religion or lack thereof. I don't expect the Prophet to call us all to SLC, though, hehe.

originally posted by thirddensity
I'm having a hell of a time getting my name off the records. So I've been doing research and sharing information about the church with active members. I've been called an apostate quite a few times and feel that my excommunication could happen very soon.

You're not the first person I've heard complain about getting your name off the records. I really don't see why we make it so hard, but I've heard it is possible. Just keep telling the bishop and the clerks you want this. As for being called apostate, I think that's rather rude of people. As for excommunication, they won't ex you just for not going to church for 14 years, you'd have to do something they really didn't like, maybe publish antiMormon literature or speak out against the church or embezzle church funds or kill somebody or commit adultery or something like that. It's pretty rare nowadays. I personally know only one excommunicated member, but I've heard 2nd and 3rd hand stories of a few others.

Response to another an3rkist post:

I've heard they never actually remove your name from the records, even if they finally say they did. I heard that at most they'll just put the word "Removed" next to your name on the records or something. I do know that the Mormons have noticed that I haven't paid my tithing in awhile, and they have actually put quite a bit of effort in finding me. I lived on a mountain all by myself once, and they came all the way the two hour road in four feet of snow to try and get me to start coming back to church. (I don't know how they found me up there.) And then when I joined the Army and came to Korea, they found me here, too. And I actually took some precautions to try and keep them from finding me here!

Lol, I can SO see this happening, too Some ppl are really gung-ho about 're-activating', as we call it, people like yourself who have decided they don't want to come to church anymore. I'm more of the 'choose for yourself' type, I don't pressure inactive people to come back. I might tell them I think it's a good idea in my opinion, but I let them lead their own lives. As for the 'removed' thing next to your name, that's often what they do if you ask for name removal, but *real* name removal like the kind you want is possible, just harder to get done. Again, since I've never tried this, I don't know the steps. I don't know how those guys found you either , they must have done some real detective work, heh.

Thirddensity: (btw, love the avatar, star wars is my fav movie ever! lightsabers rock!)

Mormons do not believe in hell. What you called the abyss and another called spirit prison are two different things. Spirit Prison, as was stated, is where everyone unworthy goes where they die. Then you have the three degrees of glory that all have infinate layers. What you referred to as the abyss is actually called outer darkness. This is where the Sons of Perdition go. These are the people that have know the gospel and became heretics. You literally cease to exist. Period.

We DO believe in Hell, it is synonymous with the term Outer Darkness (in Mormonism, anyway). It is lower than the telestial kingdom. It is where sons of perdition and the worst of the worst of humanity goes, as well as those who commit the unpardonable sin (as it is called in most Christian religions) of denying the Holy Spirit. People who simply leave the Mormon church would probably not go here, unless they were really really bad. You don't cease to exist here, but you will wish you had.

The orliginal God that created Elohim and everything in existance is completley different than the God Mormons worship. Think about it. Any mormon will tell you that Elohim had to do exactly what we have to do to attain Godhood. So why does the mormon buck stop at him? I prefer to worship the source, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end

Mormons believe that there is no distinction between what you are calling 'the Mormon God 'Elohim' and the 'Alpha and Omega.' We believe that God had to go through mortality like we did, and he made it to the highest level of the celestial kingdom on his world. So according to Mormonism, God must have had a God, and it follows that this probably goes way way back. What you say does kind of make sense though, you are saying you worship the original God in this long chain. I guess to use a silly political analogy, God is like the state governor, and his God (and so on, ad infinitum) is like the president of the states. Mormonism is saying you don't have to worship the guy higher up, just the local leader (yeah, crap analogy, but it was spur of the moment )
Response to Grommer:

As far as guns go, most of the people I've ever met through the church were gun freaks (they all had huge cache's of weapons and munitions)

Hmm, I suppose I've met one or two that were like this, they are probably the same percentage within and without the church, I'd say. I for one don't have any guns; I've never even fired a gun, unless waterguns or videogames count, hehe. My largest weapon is a swiss army knife.

Jukyu, part 5:
1)

I even remember hearing at one point that the true LDS doctrine stated that only the church hierchy made it to the top level, but I didn't post this because I don't have anything to back it up except heresay

I've never heard this. Our teachings are that anyone can make it there, provided they do the right things to deserve it (10 commandments, all that stuff)
2)

Jospeh Smith very clearly states that Moroni came to him as an angel, even stated the fact that he was an angel I think. Being an angel would denote that one had been ressurected and placed in the Terrestrial level of heaven. So, how did Moroni become an angel?

I did a search on D&C and Joseph Smith - History in the standard works of Mormon scripture, Smith never called Moroni an 'angel' in those, (he may have elsewhere, I didn't look tonight, but he didn't in our scriptures) but 'angel' is an extremely common term in the church to use for Moroni. We regularly say 'the angel moroni' when we refer to the guy on top of our temples. I never thought about it before, but there does seem to be some ambiguity over the term 'angel' in Mormonism. It can either mean the terrestrial being you refer to, or, and more commonly, I have heard it referring to someone who has been resurrected in full glory. Mormons believe this latter is what happened to Moroni, though I don't know of any proof either way.
3)

If Moroni was preordained to hide the plates and then come back to Smith as an Angel, was he not denied agency (free will) and the chance to progress?

Nope. Moroni could have refused. We all have free will. God is omniscient, so he would have known Moroni would have chosen to accept this task. God also knew 1000000000+ years ago that I was going to write this ATS article today. He knows it all.
4)

This of course brings up the question of whether or not people can improve their position within Heaven once they get there and even possibly move up to a higher tier over time.

I'm starting to get tired (I've been typing over 2 hrs) so I won't bother to find the references, but we believe you can gradually work your way up to one level below 'god' level. I forget now if you can cross 'kingdoms', i.e. hell to telestial, telestial to terrestrial, terrestrial to celestial. I'd have to look it up, and like I said, I've been at this awhile.
5)

I'm glad you mentioned the patriarchal blessing thats a very interestiing subject. I believe the practice came around after the translation of the Pearl of Great price when Smith decided that Abraham was an astrologer and that the practice had a divine nature. From that point on supposedly elders of the church with a certain gift could look at the position of the stars and in doing so thin the veil to determine a person's past as a spirit and their mission on Earth. However, funny enough I've heard a few of these blessings / fortunes and they tend to be strikingly similar. For men it seems to be something heoric in one's past like you fought valiantly in the war in heaven and then something to spur them on in their church life to serve a mission and stay faithful to the church. For women, it seems to be essentially an order to stay good, faithful, and have lots of mormon children. So yes probably at least part of the reason for keeping one's patriarchal blessing a secret is so that 100 people don't get together and figure out they have the same one.

The church has never believed in astrology. Facsimile 3 in the book fo abraham states that

Abraham is reasoning upon the principles of Astronomy, in the king's court.

We do have patriarchs who give these blessings to people (I've never had mine, though, very unusual at my age) As for them being similar, I don't know, but it's common for spouses and sometimes children or other close family members to let each other read them, so I think they'd figure it out. The 'tribe' you are assigned to in the blessing is usually Ephraim though, that's almost universal, especially for those born in the church. The tribe of ephraim is concerned with missionary work in this life.
6)

I remember being in Institute (LDS college indoctrination) and reading a passage where Smith and his friends went out and had a nice picnic including a bottle of wine. I was the only one that seemed to be troubled that the prophet wasn't exactly practicing what he preached.

Yeah, this is true. There are about 2-3 times this occurs in the 7 volume set 'History of the Church' by B.H. Roberts (which i have read in its entirety, but most certainly don't feel like leafing through to find the references) I was bothered by this too. I spoke to an institute instructor about it. He did some research and about a week later he told me that at first the word of wisdom was a 'guideline', rather than a 'commandment.', kind of like we are encouraged to serve missions, not to date until 16, things like that. It was only in Presdent Heber J Grant's time that obeying the Word of wisdom became part of a temple recommend interview and could keep you out of the temple if you didn't follow it.

D&C 27:3 Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not purchase a wine neither strong drink of your enemies;

D&C 89:5-6 That inasmuch as any man adrinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
v6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, a pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

Those verses helped me reconcile the fact, although it does still bother me some that Smith drank wine a couple of times.
7)

Smith as a young man was somewhat of a scam artist. He would take money from people claiming to lead them to the location of buried treasure. He was eventually arrested for this and his trial is a matter or public record. The fascinating thing is the process Smith used to divine the location of said tresure. He had a stone he had found and claimed it to be a seer stone. He would put the stone in his cap, peer in, and be shown the location of the treature. It must not have been much of a stone because he didn't have any satisfied customers. However it does bear a striking resemblence to Smith's description of the Ummim and Thummin (Ok I butchered the spelling again), the magical stones used to translate the Book of Mormon. Smith would evidently put the magical stone in his hat and be given the translated meaning of the reformed hieroglyphics on the golden tablet.

There are a lot of conflicting reports about this. Smith did have a criminal record where he was convicted of 'mischief' (or something like that, anyway) but there is no mention of what he did or any sentence (the same record has other ppls sentences), so scholars assume he was let off with a warning. The record refers to Smith as 'the glass looker'. Smith did have a 'seer stone'; the church actually has it in their possession somewhere (in a museum i think) It is separate from the Urim and Thummim, which we do not have anymore. Smiths explanation of the treasure hunting is found in the pearl of great price, under joseph smith history; basically he worked for Josiah Stoal as a silver miner, and didn't find anything. I don't believe he was a treasure hunter, myself, any of the reports I have seen of this are fairly unreliable.

Thirddensity:

There can and will be polygamy in the Celestial Kingdom. That is why men can be sealed to more than one woman in the temple. Sorry ladies, only one man for you.

Absoultely, according to our beliefs. You can also have multiple wives in the celestiak kingdom if your first wife dies and you remarry, providing both were temple marriages. So even in this day and age, a mormon can have multiple women in the afterlife. A woman who is sealed to her husband, whose husband dies, and remarries a mormon man, will not be sealed to the 2nd man, she goes to the first man.

Demorior: matthew 22:23-33. as above, she would go to the one she had the temple marriage with.

Bleys:

I was always amazed at how few people in the LDS religion were actually aware that Smith was a polygamist and had 33 wives while still alive.

The # of wives he had varies from source to source, but that sounds roughly right, if a little high (I was under the impression it was maybe half that, but like I say, there's disagreement over the number) I think the majority of mormons where I live know Smith was polygamist, but I don't think they know the extent of it, and don't really think about it too much, since it isn't practiced today.

thirddensity:

The Mormons claim that the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the Gospel. Funny that polygamy is never mentioned in it

A lot of stuff we believe in isn't in the BoM. But everything you ever needed to know about living a righteous life is in there. That's what they mean when they say that, IMHO.

This is the book that Joseph Smith allegedly translated off of the Egyptian papyra scrolls he bought from a traveling Egyptian mummy display. They say it contains the story of Abraham when he traveled to Egypt. The ironic part is that the church thought these scrolls were destroyed in a fire. They were discovered some time ago, and translated today are nothing more than Pagan Egyptian funeral Texts. You can see some of the pictograms in the actual Pearl of Great Price which is readily available to anyone. Click this link and feel free to view the fascimiles.

scriptures.lds.org...

Anyone who can translate these will tell you that the above is exactly what they are.

Now the Church will tell you that the recovered scrolls are only part of what Joe Smith had, and not what he translated off of. This has been proven to be erroneous. In one of Joseph Smith's journals was found a copy of the Deseret alphabet that he used in translation of the papyra. See the following link for an excellent article on what exactly he did:

www.mormonstudies.com...

I'd love to talk more about these subjects if anyone wants.

There is a lot of controversy over this. In fact, this very issue is what got me started researching church history a couple of years back. Most of the papyrus found with the mummies was destroyed or lost over time. Some were found in the 1960s by a nonMormon professor of religion who recognized the facsimiles. The translations are an excerpt from the Book of Breathings, which is basically a coles notes version of the more famous Book of the Dead. Even Mormon Egyptologists concur with this. I have read so many articles arguing both sidse of this issue I won't get into it here, but I'll state my beliefs about the issue.

The papyri we have now are only a fraction of what Smith had. (this is hotly debated, but I believe true, based on descriptions of the papyri during Smith's time) I saw a figure once that claimed we have 13% of the original (no clue how they got that number, though, I seriously doubt the accuracy of that, it seems like a guess to me) Also, more credibly, Joseph F. Smith (original Smith's nephew, Hyrum's son, and one of the presidents of the church) said that he saw his uncle translating the papyri and from his description of how much there was, there was a heck of a lot more papyri than the couple of fragments we have now.

That still doesn't explain what egyptian funerary rites are doing in there, though. My theory is the following: When Smith bought the papyri and mummies from Chandler, Chandler insisted Smith buy the entire exhibit or nothing at all. Smith, feeling inspired to do so, raised the rather steep price of $2400 in the 1830s!! (1835 if i recall right, but I'm tired and too lazy to look up) from donations and bought them. He sorted through all the stuff and found (paraphrasing) 'the book of abraham and the book of joseph' (book of joseph never saw publciation or translation; this was the joseph in egypt that got sold into slavery by brothers) So basically, Smith bought a whole bunch of stuff he didn't really want to get what he did want, kind of like a giant grab bag. Unfortunately, we found some of the other stuff, not the book of abraham, although we did find the facsimiles. I've seen some Mormon apologists try and justify Smith's translations of the facsimiles, the only part of his translation we can verify, and I've seen others try and prove Smith was a fraud over this, and it is a difficult issue, probably the toughest one in Mormonism. It's up to each individual person who to believe on this issue. As for the Deseret alphabet, I've seen attempts to discredit it by apologists, and attempts to use it to prove Smith was a hoax. For a pro-Mormon read on this, try "The Story of the Book of Abraham: Mummies, Manuscripts and Mormonism" by H. Donl. Peterson (1995) or "The Saga of the Book of Abraham" by Jay M. Todd (1969); the last one written soon after the papyri were found, though, so some information in that is wrong due to new discoveries in the last 36 years. For an anti-Mormon read, try "By His Own Hand on Papyrus" by Charles Larson. I've read Todd and Larson, but have only skimmed Peterson.

djohnsto77:

As far as the seven letters to the seven churches in Asia Minor of Revelation, I think they are really letters to seven churches in Turkey at John's time

That's what I think, too.

questionreality:

Yes they believe that Lehi cam to the americas, but its not as simple as they were the Aztecs and the Inca, the Jaredites were still around then as well, and many other factors.

I don't think we have enough information to make any correlations between Aztecs, Inca, Mayan, Olmec, etc and BoM peoples, Nephites, Lamanites, Jaredites, etc. There's theories on this, but since archaeology hasn't provided anything more than circumstantial evidence for the BoM, it would be guesswork.

Polygamy isnt considered a sin necessarily, but it is forbidden to be practiced because it contradicts the law of the land

Exactly. If it was made legal again (fat chance, lol) we would probably start it up again.

Blacks did not suddenly get the right to hold the priesthood during the Civil rights movement, they were allowed to receive the priesthood in the 70's, adn i thought the civil rights movement was in the 50's.. Any Black man claiming descrimination and demanding he receive teh priesthood WILL STILL BE DENIED. The priesthood is only bestowed on those of Faith within the church. Black, white, yellow, red or green all can hold the priesthood. I know MANY black members that old the Priesthood. It changed the way many in the church thought, and many fell away, it challenged their faith in God.

As of Sept.30,1978, all men old enough and worthy enough were allowed the priesthood, "without regard for race or color" (direct quote from the official declaration by president kimball who announced it) I know a few blacks who have the priesthood (not many, but then, not many blacks, mormon or not, around here) The civil rights movement had nothing to do with the revelation on priesthood, they were separated by over 2 decades.

When you die, you do not go to heaven or hell, you go and await the second coming, where that is, I do not remember what it is call, but EVERYONE goes there until the return of Christ.

It's called the 'spirit world'. Depending on your conduct in life, it can been seen as 'spirit prison' or as a 'paradise' (hence some of the confusion by nonmormons on this) It's kind of like the waiting room before the 2nd coming. We believe a lot of missionary work goes on in that place, to people who never got to hear about the gospel while on earth.

Lamagraa:

an incedent at a ward we're there were non-members sitting on a couch outside the chapel during sacrament (the passing of the bread and water) and the kid was about to give these non members it and an older member told them the could'nt recieve it yet most of the wards I've gone allow this (he was just rude about it)

Hmm that older member was a jerk. Nonmembers are allowed to take the sacrament, but since they haven't been baptized, it doesn't mean anything. The only people who can't have the sacrament are those who are excommunicated. You are also counseled not to take it if you feel you have sinned recently, but that is betewen you and God.

This was a bloody awesome topic to read about, thanks a lot mate for the in put on Mormons.

Theirs a Mormon temple a block away from me and the ironic thing is that their is a Catholic Church almost kitty corner to it lol.

Ok, following the longest post in ATS history (or at least my ATS history!) I'm going to comment on the symbols, as saint4god requested me to.

On www.helpingmormons.org...:

Keystones: seem pretty harmless to me, just stylish architecture.
Sunstones: the sun symbol is found on the temple garments. I haven't been through the temple (and shouldn't know anything about the inner ceremonies, but I do anyway, don't tell anyone!) but I would say that it symbolizes the celestial kingdom. The celestial kingdom is typically compared to the sun, the terrestrial to the moon, and the telestial to the stars; the light is analogous to the reward in those kingdoms.
sun with face (claimed to be baal) Reminds me of the sunstone, except for the face in it. Don't know about this one. Reminds me of stuff on Central American ruins. Maybe it's supposed to do just that, since we believe native americans are descended from BoM peoples. Just a theory.
nauvoo temple replicates My, what a big nose he has, seeing him from profile see sun with face comments, its the same face.
moon on parts of temple As I said above, the terrestrial kingdom is likened unto the moon.
moroni on temple top He's there because without Moroni's visitation to Joseph Smith, there'd be no Mormon religion today. The trumpet he has is for calling people to Christ. I didn't know they always faced east, hadn't noticed that before. Maybe that's the sun/celestial symbolism again.
inverted pentagrams As above, these look like stars to represent the telestial kingdom. In the temple, there are 3 rooms, one each named after each kingdom, so this symbolism makes sense to me, at least.
pentagram I don't have a convincing interpretation of this one. (dons apologist mantle) I'd say it's either symbolizing the telestial again, or maybe outer darkness? (doffs apologist mantle) I'll confess, this one bothers me. Does the pentagram have multiple connotations, maybe some that are less disturbing? The swastika for example, used to be a symbol of peace, until the Nazis adopted it. (www.albertlowe.com...) I put 'pentagram symbolism' into google, and just looking at the webpage summaries, there's a lot of different symbolisms for it, no idea which one was intended. I'll stick with the telestial or O.D. theory, myself, but I'm rather iffy on that.
egg shaped windows/pictures No symbolism here, just aesthetics.
all seeing eye Check out www.crystalinks.com... I think this eye is probably symbolizing God and his omnipotence/omniscience, since it is also known as the 'eye of God'.
handshake The handshake is part of the temple ceremony too, so this makes sense, except putting it on the outside of the temple is hardly a way to keep it secret, hehe.

Other than the pentagram, I'm not bothered by any of these suns/moons/stars on the temple, and certainly not keystones or ovals. The sun-face is kinda weird, though, too, but just odd, not disturbing, like the pentagram is to me.

Hope that helps. I imagine that some of you are as skeptical about the veracity of the Mormon religion as I am of stuff like NWO theories, aliens, and anything to do with David Icke or shapeshifting reptiles, so I doubt I'll convince those people.

(edit starts here)
yikes i just spent the whole freaking evening on ATS writing this stuff up, lol. Glad to see at least one person liked it (Grey Fox)

[edit on 12-4-2005 by DragonsDemesne]

Thanks for taking the time to put together your responses. Very interesting read and I cannot find a single thing that I disagreed with - other than religion itself -lol.

You have voted DragonsDemesne for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Kudos to you my friend,
Bleys

Originally posted by Bleys
Thanks for taking the time to put together your responses. Very interesting read and I cannot find a single thing that I disagreed with - other than religion itself -lol.

You have voted DragonsDemesne for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Kudos to you my friend,
Bleys

Cool, my first WATS (that I know of!) Thanks!

Outstanding post, jukyu. Great formatting and very information-rich.

Personally, I grew up as a Jehovah's Witness and I always saw the Mormons (LDS) as a far more modern, higher class of religion than ours. They were the Brahmins of doorknocking and we were the Shudras. One thing that always amazed me was the complete information-void regarding mormons that existed in the JW church. Witnesses rarely discuss mormons and seem totally oblivious to the fact that the world sees the JWs as a low-rent mormon knock-off.

I wouldn't be afraid of the LDS being an NWO tool, if that's what you were suggesting. 250 million people, yes, but how many of those are the stereotypical battle-age adults? Where would these people strike and in what capacity? If you have a few million people, you still need to set up a stream of ammunition for them to conduct a battle, or do you imagine they'll make a move in a quick, strike-force fashion?

Frankly, it's the JWs and their territorial mapping project that seems odd to me. Their obsession with marking and mapping every house in the US is fanatical. From my discussions with LDS, they tell me that fellas on their missions just go wherever the spirit moves them. The JWs, however, have complete records of every address in the US. I always thought this was weird.

My opinion of LDS came when my girlfriend ran out of gas on the highway once. She and I were driving from Colorado to California and were in that 100-mile no-mans-land stretch of highway on I-70 through Utah . It was pitch black and she had run out of gas when she woke me and told me so. I was having nightmares of a hundred-mile walk for gasoline when a truck pulled over. This kind man drove us up to get gas and drove us back, fourty-miles round trip. When he was leaving, I tried to pay him and he looked at me like I was crazy. He shook his head and said, "Tell you what, if the Mormons ever come to your door, just have a listen to what they have to say." and he left.

Needless to say, I loved all LDS members after that, even if I have a low opinion of their male-centered church. I have known several LDS since then and they're all great people. I can easily see them providing major assistance and succor to the human race when WW3 happens. I do think that churches like the LDS are easily hijacked, however. Notice how the "Fundamentalist" Latter Day Saints offshoot-church was hijacked by their own prophet, Warren Jeffs. Read more about this here.

I believe the same thing could happen to the LDS, particularly in a time of crisis.

There is even a mormon doctrine albeit not a well known one that in the final days that the United States will begin to fall apart and it will be necessary for the church hierarchy to take over the country to prevent it from collapsing.

I've never heard this one before. We do believe that at the 2nd coming, Jesus will lead a kind of one world government, kind of like a benevolent NWO, but quote #15 I am nearly certain is untrue.

Can you explain more about this? Where is the confusion coming from? I'd like to know more about what role Mormons see themselves playing as issues like nuclear war, peak oil, etc play out.


[edit on 12-4-2005 by smallpeeps]

I appreciate seeing someone of the Mormon belief taking a critical look at these things. Admittedly looking back, it appears I'm "flying off the handle" but I can also say that a lot of these symbols looked immediately familiar without reading any of the text in that link. That's what concerned me since they were opposite of Christian origin. I think it would be in everyone's best interest to research where they all come from in detail. I'm sorry to say though, they did not begin in early America. Even the detail like pillars themselves and prominent noses have a meaning. I don't see how any of these were 'designed for fun'.

Someone from the First Presidency of the Mormon church is coming to my brother's ward to talk about temples this Sunday. They are also going to have a Q&A session. If anyone has any questions, I'll be more than happy to go and ask away.

I do plan on asking about the symbolism of the sunstone and the pentagram on the new Navuu temple.

Bring your questions here, and I will post what his answers are Sunday night.

Originally posted by thirddensity
I do plan on asking about the symbolism of the sunstone and the pentagram on the new Navuu temple.

Thank you thank you! That's what I want to know about. Maybe even print-outs would help to bring along too, yes?

Originally posted by thirddensity
Someone from the First Presidency of the Mormon church is coming to my brother's ward to talk about temples this Sunday. They are also going to have a Q&A session. If anyone has any questions, I'll be more than happy to go and ask away.

I do plan on asking about the symbolism of the sunstone and the pentagram on the new Navuu temple.

Bring your questions here, and I will post what his answers are Sunday night.

Hmm, good, I want to see if I was right or not about those. Which leader is coming to your brother's ward, do you know? I'm assuming it's not president Hinckley or you would have remembered that, so that means its either James Faust or Thomas Monson.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by thirddensity
I do plan on asking about the symbolism of the sunstone and the pentagram on the new Navuu temple.

Thank you thank you!

That's what I want to know about. Maybe even print-outs would help to bring along too, yes?

If you can point me in the direction of some printouts, I'll gladly bring them.

I'm not sure who is coming. I was just told one of the First Presidency. When I find out, I'll let you know.

Originally posted by thirddensity
If you can point me in the direction of some printouts, I'll gladly bring them.

I'm not sure who is coming. I was just told one of the First Presidency. When I find out, I'll let you know.

Sure thing, it's on the link from page 3:

www.helpingmormons.org...

Hello. I did go to that meeting they had about temples. They did have a Q and A session as advertised. The kicker was that you had to give your questions to the bishop who would in turn give them to the speaker. I was also misinformed about the speaker. It turned out to be David Glover, 1st Councelor of the Chicago Temple and his wife, Emma, Matron of the Chicago temple.

Suffice to say, not one of my questions were handed over to David Glover. I asked the bishop why they weren't answered and he responded that he felt the questions were too hostile and might cause confusion to any people in attendance who were investigating the church.

So there you go. Sorry everyone, I tried.