Gun Control in the UK: misconceptions, where do people get them?

So I ask you folks.. in the event that someone does break into your house with a gun and shoots you because you have no gun to defend yourself - what then? Heck or even stabbed with a knife for that matter. I am sure there are many victims in the UK that wish they did have a handgun for personal defense -

any country that restricts the citizens right to proper personal protection, is just as guilty of wrong doing/murder as the thug that committed the crime IMO.

So it doesn't happen often you guys say.. but that one life that was taken because they couldn't defend themselves - is it worth it? I don't see how it can be.

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


Who said anything about not being able to protect ourselves in our own home?

These days it is fully legal to use appropriate force to subdue an assailant, once he/she is on the ground though and no longer a threat you have to stop.

Anyone breaks into my home meets appropriate force of several heavy objects, my fists and most likely my head.

If at first you don't succeed, in wi' the boot and then the heed.

reply to post by woogleuk

I guess my question then is how do you counter the force of a ranged weapon like a gun when you don't have handguns? Assuming you don't have a shotgun or rifle. Handguns are faster and easier to draw aim and shoot than a rifle or shotgun. If your invader is 40 feet away and aims to shoot you with a handgun, you have very little recourse but to hope he misses. You cannot counter that type of force (ranged weapon) without like force. I don't see how you can unless you train everyone to be expert knife throwers.

JohnPhoenix
I guess my question then is how do you counter the force of a ranged weapon like a gun when you don't have handguns?

Charm. Wit. A stern look.

Thing is. In the UK the chance anyone will ever be threatened with a gun are pretty slim, so the question is moot. I do feel sorry for many people in countries like the US, that they feel the need to carry a handgun to protect themselves from their peers.

In the US – population 311.5 million – there were an estimated 13,756 murders in 2009, a rate of about 5.0 per 100,000. Of these 9,203 were carried out with a firearm.

In the UK – population 56.1 million – there were an estimated 550 murders in 2011-12, a rate of about 1.4 per 100,000. Of these 39 were carried out with a firearm.

Source

Regards

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


It makes no difference, the likelihood of the assailant having a firearm is so low it's not even worth thinking about.

I can understand why you would have difficulty understanding that as you come from a culture where guns are a very big part of your society, it's one of the things I have come to accept in these arguments between the UK and the US...you don't get us very well and same for us you.

Limeys, I think thou doth protest too much. On any gun related thread all the no-gun-having countrymen chime in about how much they don't need or want guns. Oh yes, and how happy they are without them. Got it, I believe you, you don't need to convince me any further.....but something just keeps compelling you to come here and declare it yet again.

reply to post by hammanderr


The thread is about gun control in the UK.....what did you expect? Marshmallows and flame throwers?

hammanderr
Limeys, I think thou doth protest too much. On any gun related thread all the no-gun-having countrymen chime in about how much they don't need or want guns. Oh yes, and how happy they are without them. Got it, I believe you, you don't need to convince me any further.....but something just keeps compelling you to come here and declare it yet again.

Mostly because it's baffling to us why you glorify guns so much. I'll tell you this much - the first time I saw an armed UK policeman the hairs on the back of my neck stood up on end. I grew up thinking of coppers as people I could rely on if I was in trouble, and none of them was armed with anything other than a truncheon. The first time I met a US policeman I got the crap scared out of me (I was in a car with a busted taillight that was no fault of the driver, who was a mate of mine) due to the way they waved their shotguns around.

reply to post by AngryCymraeg


Look no further than writs of assistance and the revolutionary war to understand our rabid firearm enthusiasm. We are raised from a young age to understand that it was firearms that created our country. Although nowadays some people might be raising their children to believe that it was "diversity" that freed the colonies(that word is in big use in the states these days).

Although I am a firearm loving American I am incredibly bothered by all these mass shootings and whatnot. And because I don't believe in the Illuminati or mind control by the "the powers that be" I am left wondering how anyone gets so crazy as to be willing to gun down a school full of children. Yet I cannot bear the thought of standing by powerlessly as witness to a crime that a firearm would quickly solve. You see, for those of us actually somewhat well trained, a firearm is a powerful tool, not a magic wand to be feared and misunderstood.

reply to post by Kryties


The difference is not that people act differently in Australia verses America, its that Australia has less people. When you look at crime committed with a firearm per capita, you get a much different picture.

In the United States there are over 313 million people... compare that to Australia's 22 million, and you understand why it may appear that there is more gun crime, when in essence, per capita its most likely quite comparable.

Same applies to the UK... less people... so what you need to look at is a per capita statistical chart, rather than a sum total.

freedomSlave

Seriously how can you people go hunting for a deer with out this .. That is just insane I like my game food looking like swiss cheese.


But ya I am from Canada apparently we have no fire arms up here too lol , and frankly I am happy with our laws here to keep firearms away from unfit people .

edit on 13/4/14 by freedomSlave because: (no reason given)

Its coming right for us!!!!

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


I don't want a handgun to defend myself if my house is burgled...or even an AR-47-K or whatever they're called...no - I want one of those minigun things like in rambo.

And as my rights are apprently implied/validated by my desires it's therefore my right to own such a gun.

I'd also like some nukes.

I don't know why people start these threads, or why I read them...or respond to them, but they do, so I do.

Every gun thread there's some American guy who makes some catty jibe to the effect of us brits enjoying our big brother society...as if they genuinely believe the hype that America is land of the free - when history proves otherwise.

Assasinated presidents...the NSA snooping on everyone, the ATF burning kids at waco, the cops murdering Chris Dorner practically live on television, the murders of Martin Luther King Jr, John Lennon - the warrantless searches after the Boston fiasco...it goes on and on.

Yes, we're enjoying our big brother, surveillance society...we're so controlled and oppressed by our government here in the UK - and unable to fight back as apparently we've no constitution.

Given the apparent right to form militia and bear arms, to fight back against oppressive, tyrranical governments - and given the short list of examples I just presented...shouldn't you gun chappies be out overthrowing your government right now, as opposed to spending time here on ATS defending your right to own guns so that you can do what you're not actually doing?

Clear proof that your owning a gun vs your apparent reasons for wanting to own a gun don't quite match.

I don't want a gun, but if I did I like to think I'd be honest about it...it's for shooting animals and/or people...that's what it's for! If I laid claim to the notion that it was for overthrowing some oppressive government I'd be forced to then act, as I'm a man of my word - and our government is kind of oppressive at times...they ain't burned a load of people or hunted down too many fugitives on live tv - Raoul Moat, maybe...only one I can think of, there could be more - it's a lot easier to find such examples if you look to the states, though. Your history is strewn with oppression and injustice, assasination and dodgy surveillance...one day the pot will fall from that very high horse and break its spout...and the kettle will laugh and say I 'told you so'. Pot was too busy insulting everyone else to listen...

So stop arguing and go out there and storm Washington with your guns - show us all that it's more than just an excuse to get your own way because some dosument said you're entitled to it.

A lot of things have been said and written over the centuries by a lot of different people, don't make it right.

reply to post by samerulesapply


There was Derrick Bird in Whitehaven, 2010. He shot and killed 12 people and injured a load more before shooting himself.

Even if the police had been armed, things would still have played out the way they did. No on the foot bobbies got anywhere near him as he kept moving about in his car, and being a taxi driver he knew the area well so took a lot of side streets and smaller rural roads.

By the time the armed response unit found him he was already dead.

This was a guy who was quiet, got on with most folk and legally owned his weapons, both the shotgun and the rifle....

I met the guy earlier on towards the start of the millennium when he brought his computer in for us to fix, and I got on well with him over the years. Whenever I got his taxi up home with the shopping he wouldn't think twice about helping me in with it, so if a nice guy like that can snap, can you imagine what it would be like if half the idiots on our streets had access to guns?

reply to post by woogleuk


Aye, and if the people he shot had all themselves been carrying a gun whilst out for a country cycle ride or popping down the shop for the morning paper and a bottle milk, it wouldn't have made any difference as they had no warning that he was going to shoot them.

Unless we want 65 million people walking around with a cocked gun in their hands at all times in case any of the other 65 million people now walking around with a cocked gun in their hands decided to shoot us!

I know what world I prefer to live in

Owning a gun wouldn't help me be safe if someone broke in at 3am. I can sleep through a riot.
The GSD that sleeps at the side of my bed, however, he's a totally different proposition. I don't even have to aim him.

That said, there's something to be said for the original arguments. Though I do think it's mad that you need a licence for an air rifle over 12 ft/lbs.

reply to post by SprocketUK


12ft/lbs is the point where generally its non lethal to most humans but is good enough for vermin control and the hassles of licensing such weapons probably make it more hassle than its worth as who fancies waiting for the paperwork when you have some rats in the garden.

reply to post by paraphi

Text In the US – population 311.5 million – there were an estimated 13,756 murders in 2009, a rate of about 5.0 per 100,000. Of these 9,203 were carried out with a firearm. In the UK – population 56.1 million – there were an estimated 550 murders in 2011-12, a rate of about 1.4 per 100,000. Of these 39 were carried out with a firearm.

I am an American of advanced age and have fought two wars through conscript. Most folks can present their opinions with incomplete facts and without consideration of the entire picture of the problems of firearms. I have a firearm and use it at time at a certified range only to keep my skill intact. I have owned my revolver for well over seventy years without having to use it in self defense. I do carry a certification for a concealed weapon but have not carried my revolver for a great many years.

I have been in England in my youth and in fact lived with a gracious English family for a few years while doing my schooling in various subjects. But while being a guest in your country I had never thought about the weapons issue simply because it was never publicized such it was here in this country. In fact in my early youth it was not predominate in this country either. Then we had civil rights reformation and gradually the influx of illegal criminals which was ignored by our corrupt politicians till it became a cancer upon our society.

I believe that the UK people have overlooked two very important factors in this weapons discussion. The first and foremost is that of the cultures of politics and that of border (immigration control). I have noted that the UK citizens have more respect and are better represented by their government than the US. I believe this to be because of better breeding and education of their people. We have a rotten system of representation when compared to the UK. Our government is so corrupt that I believe that it is now impossible to reform this system with out a total revolution.

We then have open borders and in this mix we have criminals who do as they wish in this country. One example is that we have approximately 25 American deaths per day just by illegals alone. That is to say we have 12 American deaths per day by illegals with firearms and about 13 deaths per day by illegal drunken drivers. This alone would be over 3,600 firearm deaths of your 9,000 firearm deaths being performed by illegals. This does not say a thing about other crimes by illegals. All of this goes unchecked by the corrupt politicians who use the illegals in the unchecked voting frauds which have control in this government. Then we have the issue of drugs which is now being legalized in this country. When you add all of this complex corruption, you can better understand that the decent citizen must defend themselves from this unchecked rotten culture which has become a cancer in this republic. The criminals are now in charge of the prison and it grows larger each day.

Now as you publish the chart of statistics most all of this of what I have said is kept silent. Mostly because the political controlling powers will not allow this record to be publicized. The wide spread racial and base lazy corrupt citizenry will never improve to a first class culture as long as we continue this path of destruction. Now I do love my country and I want to see her healed but my fear is that we must gain control of our government before we can educate our populace as to respect and honor. Respect must come from the elected officials first and this is reflected by the approval poll of only about 12% in favor of this government by the people. This distrust from the people creates a fear among the people and with fear comes the attempt of self protection. If this continues then I fear a revolution is imminent. You should not expect the people to lay down their arms while the criminals are given license to do as they very well please. The criminals must be controlled first which is not even being considered at this time.

JohnPhoenix
So I ask you folks.. in the event that someone does break into your house with a gun and shoots you because you have no gun to defend yourself - what then? Heck or even stabbed with a knife for that matter. I am sure there are many victims in the UK that wish they did have a handgun for personal defense -

any country that restricts the citizens right to proper personal protection, is just as guilty of wrong doing/murder as the thug that committed the crime IMO.

So it doesn't happen often you guys say.. but that one life that was taken because they couldn't defend themselves - is it worth it? I don't see how it can be.

Haveing a hand gun is no Grantee that that you will be able to defend your home against a similarly armed intruder. They could shot you first.

In the US of A if some one breaks in its likely 50/50 who shoots first. 50/50 be it killed a crook or died defending your home. And the fact is the one doing the home invasion will have a gun.


In the UK I know that 999/1000 if some one breaks in the worst they will have is knife.
Great I have a real razor Sharpe Katana, a claymore great sword and a crossbow.

I fancy my chances better.

hammanderr
We are raised from a young age to understand that it was firearms that created our country.

No wonder you are all failing in education your being taught fake history.

Its was French intervention that forged your country. Without those Frenchies you would be like Canada now (SHOCK HORROR!)

Sorry but the humble farmer with his hunting rifle winning the revolution is false.

Yeah they won Lexington and Concorde. Minor battles really and only won due to the British not having a senior officer to order a full attack on the colonists.. After that all the main fighting was done and won by regular soldiers equipped and supplied by the french.

The humble militia men got negated to rear guard actions, nuisance raids and militia on militia action. O and when needed cannon fodder