Babylon, Islam and magic

WarminIndy.. But then allah has no words because allah doesn't speak.... a god that doesn't speak and didn't even show up.

Ridiculous strawman.

God showed up to Abraham (Genesis 18) and God shows up to Moses (Exodus 2) and God speaks to both of them, but doesn't show up or speak to the greatest prophet of all??

So was Jesus was lying when he said ''no man has seen God''. Or is there a serious error in the text that claims Moses and Abraham saw God. Either Jesus was lying or the older texts are wrong. Pick one and stick to it.

Oh yes, Gabriel just goes around beating up people...no, wait, only Mohammed gets beat up and runs away.....So it makes me wonder who this entity was.

Do you also wonder about the entity in the bible that.... toasted Aarons sons, diseased Aarons wife, tried to kill Moses and blinded Paul? If not, then Gabriel roughing up Mohammad is no big deal. Besides, even if Mohammads encounter with Gabriel was peaceful, christians would still find a reason to ''wonder'' about the angel who met Mohammad.

sk0rpi0n
The Father, son and the holy spirit are all seperate from each other...therefore three seperate beings. Trinitarianism = Polytheism.

God the Father = head Jesus = hand Holy Spirit = food. All separate yet all one body. The hand and foot do what the brain in the head commands. Since you can't comprehend what Christians believe .. then perhaps you should refrain from attempting to comment on it. You get it wrong every time.

The topical question is about ''Babylon and magic and Islam'', as the thread title says. Op's main question was regarding the ''magic'' in question..

AGAIN - Stop deflecting and address the topic of the discussion. The OP asked this ...

introspectionist
Maybe the Quran is an allegorical myth and not a historical account.

So is the Qu'ran an allegorical myth or is it a reliable historical account ...

sk0rpi0n
Gabriel roughing up Mohammad is no big deal. Besides, even if Mohammads encounter with Gabriel was peaceful, christians would still find a reason to ''wonder'' about the angel who met Mohammad.

Dude ... God didn't come down in 600 AD and reveal the secrets of the universe to a murdering caravan thief. Muhammad didn't meet any angel ... and he had no visions. Anyone can claim that. He backed it up with NOTHING except the point of a sword. The Qu'ran is easily debunked. Again ... address the question from the OP -

introspectionist
Maybe the Quran is an allegorical myth and not a historical account.

So is the Qu'ran an allegorical myth or is it a reliable historical account ...

168617
I have read the qu'ran many times.. It's as close to truth as you will get when reading religious books.

That's funny.
Question .. do you blow your nose in the morning when you wake up so the devil will get out of it?

Scientific Errors in the Qu'ran
Contradictions in the Qu'ran
Historical Errors in the Qu'ran
1000 Mistakes in the Qu'ran

Wanna address the question in the OP?

introspectionist
Maybe the Quran is an allegorical myth and not a historical account.

So is the Qu'ran an allegorical myth or is it a reliable historical account ...

@WarminIndy .....YOU have to testify (you don't even have to believe it) that allah (which god is this anyway?)

which God was ''Eloah'' who Jesus called out to on the cross? Also, what if I ''confess'' Jesus is my savior without believing it... How would that work? Its quite easy to play these games.

how do you know Mohammed is the apostle of allah?

How do YOU know Jesus is the savior? Because you read words in a book?

you bow down to a god that you don't know, that never speaks, that barely listens,

you mean speak to me directly? Have YOU ever had God speak to you directly? If so, prove it.

why is it that you bow down to a god that you don't even know who it is?

Because unlike you, I believe God isn't a man you can ''know'' through carved images and paintings.

allah loves numbers, wow. And the odder the better for allah.

last I checked, christians were making a big deal over odd numbers 3 and 7.

@ FlyersFan.... All separate yet all one body.

Yes. All seperate. Three seperate entities, therefore, polytheism.

Stop deflecting and address the topic of the discussion.

OP stated on the previous page that it was not the topic of discussion. The main topic, as you can see in large lettering, is ''Babylon, magic and Islam''...not the matters you are bringing up in somebody elses thread.

Both Christianity and Islam came out of complicated origins, Pagan faiths combined with new ideas. Allah means "the highest" and ancient Arabs referred to the moon as "Allah" because they believed the moon god was the most important, and this title carried over when monotheism decided that "one true god" was now "the highest".
Mohammed was a guy who carried on with nomads but eventually in trading cities decided that the Jews and Christians he met there had a better system, and adopted it along with his own ideas. He probably was involved in some shady caravan doings, but as I dont know much about Islam ill stop there.

Christianity - what we know it as - was a combination of countless pagan holy days (Christmas, Easter, etc) to keep the pagans happy to convert, the Mithraic story of the sun god, eucharist cannibalism, and so forth with the Jewish tales as a backstory. Speaking of which, archaeology shows that the Jews were heavily pagan, many statues of YHWH's wife have been found.

Never forget that Christianity was compiled by an emperor who erected statues of himself as the Sun God and a council who picked and chose which books and writings they wanted to include or burn. Jesus (Yahshuah) was probably a real guy in my opinion, but without the pagan Roman empire creating and preserving a doctrine about him, we probably would never have heard of him. So I mean, all abrahamic faiths came out of paganism, and retain some elements today.

sk0rpi0n
Yes. All seperate. Three seperate entities, therefore, polytheism.

So the hand and the foot and the head ... they aren't all part of the same body?
All with different DNA, eh? Yeah ... okay .... obtuse.

The main topic, as you can see in large lettering, is ''Babylon, magic and Islam''...not the matters you are bringing up in somebody elses thread.

Deflection. The OP asked right in the main body of his statement ...
Is the Qur'an allegorical or reliable history? ANSWER IT.

Funny how the Muslims are running in circles trying not to answer a simple question in the opening post. That says a lot.

Ridhya
all abrahamic faiths came out of paganism, and retain some elements today.

Very true. What is absurd is when the Muslims jump up and down pointing at the date of the Christmas celebration and scream 'pagan!' (the date set was done so in order to correspond to the pagan festivals so as to bring in the pagans to the Christian faith) ... and yet those same muslims turn a blind eye to their pagan origins and practices - the Hajj, the stone throwing, the running between hills, the worship of a meteorite and the running circles around it ... Hypocrisy.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Yes, but (without going too far off topic) psychology shows this is a fact of human nature. We all have a bias that what we do and know must be inherently right and what is different must be inherently wrong. I see the same pot calling the kettle black thing not just between religious folk but also of religious vs atheist folk... The way I see it atheists are saying Shrodingers cat is dead, religious people are saying Schrodingers cat is alive, all the while neither one has opened the box.

You are right about the Bible and Quran not being historical books because neither was written down as it happened. In fact in both cases illiteracy was so rampant most must have been oral tradition, and I recall that the Muslims required followers to memorise it. In the Bible's case events happened over hundreds or thousands of years and are written in retrospect, and actually many studiers believe that the old testament was written completely in Babylon during the captivity (where much Babylonian mythology was added, including the story of Moses/Sargon, Noah/Utnapishtim, etc).

FlyersFan

168617
I have read the qu'ran many times.. It's as close to truth as you will get when reading religious books.

That's funny.
Question .. do you blow your nose in the morning when you wake up so the devil will get out of it?

Scientific Errors in the Qu'ran
Contradictions in the Qu'ran
Historical Errors in the Qu'ran
1000 Mistakes in the Qu'ran

Most of those can be used in the Bible also.. But there is 7 layers to the atmosphere and that is one error that your sources points out. What makes you think that the information is meant to be taken literally anyway? Certainly shows how spiritual you are and why you shouldn't even speak about religion.

168617
Certainly shows how spiritual you are and why you shouldn't even speak about religion.

Funny guy .. still putting himself in God's shoes and daring to judge a persons soul. You know nothing.
Your 'most accurate' religious book has been proven to be full of errors. Unreliable.

Answer the question asked by the author in the opening post -

introspectionist
Maybe the Quran is an allegorical myth and not a historical account.

So is the Qu'ran an allegorical myth or is it a reliable historical account ...

reply to post by FlyersFan


Expanding Universe

"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."
(The Qur'an, 51:47)

The Sun and Moon in their orbits

"It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They swim along, each in an orbit. "
(The Qur'an, 21:33)

"And the sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. "
(The Qur'an, 37:38)

"By the sky full of paths and orbits."
(The Qur'an, 51:7)

The Sky

"We made the sky a preserved and protected roof yet still they turn away from Our Signs.."
(The Qur'an, 21:32)

So what could this mean? Have you ever seen objects from space come into the atmosphere?



Islam is spot on in most cases and the sad thing is that it is basic stuff... Can't say the same for your wiki links.

More explanation's here

reply to post by 168617

You didn't read any of the information at the links showing the massive number of errors in the Qu'ran. Typical. Dude .. it's just a mess. And it didn't come from God. The ancient Summerians and Zoroastrians had all the science thousands of years before Muhammad stole it from them. Now answer the OP's question ... is the Qu'ran literal historical fact or is it allegorical?

reply to post by FlyersFan

Dude .. crack open a history book and shake off the indoctrination from the Imams. Muhammad was a dirty slave trader ... getting slaves by raiding peaceful people and stealing them, and their goods. He faked visions from God and gave no proof of any truth to his statements.

Never read the bible huh? Seeing how you want to call people dirty slave traders the bible says to make people slaves so it looks like many people in the bible is dirty slave traders. And show one vision of God in the bible that can be proven.

Typical religious extremist arrogant rhetoric .... daring to judge the souls of others who worship God differently .. and daring to judge them as 'going to hell'. Judging souls is a job for GOD ALONE. And dude, you are not God. Putting yourself in His shoes is a big no no.

You should follow your own advice. You have done nothing but judge the founder of the Islamic faith when you really know nothing about the man you didn't live back then so all you know is what was passed down over that ages. Back when things were written about him the only people that could write were religious people and the wealthy so do you really think that an accurate accounting of a person that preached a different religion would be told? Christians spent a lot of time burning books that they didn't agree with if it weren't for the Christians and their book burnings would could be far more advance than we are now.

buster2010
Never read the bible huh?

Deflection and not on topic.
It's a FACT that Muhammad was a murdering caravan thief. Deal with it.

Oh .. and just for fun .. some (not all) of my threads dissecting the bible and certain Christian beliefs ...
ATS Thread - Did Abraham Even Exist
ATS Thread - 10 Commandments Doctrine of Men
And of course the 'Noahs Ark Didn't Exist' posts here - ATS Thread - A Game of Logic

How about you get on topic and answer the question .. is the Qu'ran a reliable historical document or not?

sk0rpi0n

@WarminIndy .....YOU have to testify (you don't even have to believe it) that allah (which god is this anyway?)

which God was ''Eloah'' who Jesus called out to on the cross? Also, what if I ''confess'' Jesus is my savior without believing it... How would that work? Its quite easy to play these games.

how do you know Mohammed is the apostle of allah?

How do YOU know Jesus is the savior? Because you read words in a book?

you bow down to a god that you don't know, that never speaks, that barely listens,

you mean speak to me directly? Have YOU ever had God speak to you directly? If so, prove it.

why is it that you bow down to a god that you don't even know who it is?

Because unlike you, I believe God isn't a man you can ''know'' through carved images and paintings.

allah loves numbers, wow. And the odder the better for allah.

last I checked, christians were making a big deal over odd numbers 3 and 7.

Can you answer any question directly without deflecting?

It appears that you are much like what Barnum said "A sucker is born every day". You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time.

But here's another good one, if you can't convince people with intelligence, dazzle them with .....

The deflection dance isn't fooling anyone, and you haven't convinced us with intelligence, and you aren't very dazzling with your dance. So please, stop the deflection and question your god. The imams have dazzled you and still continue to dazzle you, thereby fooling you all the time.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Funny how the Muslims are running in circles trying not to answer a simple question in the opening post. That says a lot.

your constant attempts to fight Islam in every thread says more than any Muslim running in circles can say.

That's funny. Question .. do you blow your nose in the morning when you wake up so the devil will get out of it?

So a person gives their opinion on the Qur'an and you just cant help but show your hate?

InhaleExhale
your constant attempts to fight Islam in every thread ...

This thread IS about Islam.

you just cant help but show your hate?

I dare you to take a look at the links I posted to threads I've authored showing how ignorant major portions of Judaism and Christianity are ... then eat your words and come back and get on topic ... and the topic of this thread is the Qur'an quote.

Exposing errors in the Abrahamic religions isn't 'hate' ... it's just exposing errors.
Oh .. and it's not bad to hate error. Get on topic. I"m not it.
The OP asked a question ... is the Qu'ran story literal reliable history or is it allegorical?
Instead of deflection ... answer the question.

I've been on forums where the mods are way too trigger happy. But this is the opposite. When for once mods are needed they do nothing.