Why Is the ATS Community Pro-Nationalist?

reply to post by RebelHart


I might agree that FUNCTIONAL NATIONALISM for America is largely an illusion, now.

HOWEVER,

There are still millions of patriotic Americans--particularly in the Western half--for whom our nationalist flavored patriotism is NOT AN ILLUSION. I think the recent NV thing was merely a hint of the truth of that.

Maybe we are championing a dying or even already dead reality in terms of the body politic at the governmental level . . . nevertheless, such an ideal . . . such an inner reality . . . is true for us . . . regardless of how much it appears to be a vain fantasy to certainly the globalists who will be devilishly intent on making certain such a patriotic 'inner reality' is only that . . . and not even that for long.

reply to post by amfirst1


But what do YOU get from the US being on top? The elite gets everything. If the wealth were a river, the elite at the very top get drenched, and you as an average Joe American citizen get droplets.

reply to post by BO XIAN


That's exactly my point. To the letter.

reply to post by BO XIAN


And I'm not trying to say that globalism is an answer to extreme nationalism. Or even that globalism is better than nationalism (patriotism, whatever). My point is that this all an illusion. Whether it's the elite running these countries or the elite running the NWO, they are always running the show. I think that anyone that opposes the Illuminati elite has to come up with a new paradigm to replace this situation or that situation. The NWO is the worst scenario, but what we have right now is also bad. And that's because it's all being controlled behind the scenes. I wonder if the NWO was something that was thought to be needed for full control of the world, while underestimating the fact that they would take full control even without the need for a NWO. Just a thought.

reply to post by brazenalderpadrescorpio

but it seems that people who believe in conspiracy theories in general tend to have a patriotic fervor that I can't understand. I can't understand it because of the tendency that conspiracy theorists tend to have of distrusting the government.

Distrusting the government is NOT conspiracy theorist specific. Distrusting the government, any government, is why the framers of the constitution tried to install a good checks and balances system. Look at the bill of rights. They included those amendments because they didn't trust the government to respect those 'natural rights'.

Also, let's define what a conspiracy theorist is because many "kooky conspiracy theories" aren't even controversial save among ignorant people. I myself, as a proponent of particular conspiracy theories, was ignorant. Did you know that the existence of Bilderberg isn't in question? For the longest time, I thought their very existence was a "conspiracy theory", but it turns out they even have an official website. www.bilderbergmeetings.org...

Did you know that the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) isn't a conspiracy theory? By his own admission, Dick Cheney was a long-time member and director of CFR. CFR isn't in of itself a "special interest group" (SIG), but it is a coalition of SIGs who develop think tanks to help guide all their 'interests'. One think tank pdf even goes as far to state that, "Finally, the separation of
powers enshrined in the U.S. Constitution, which gives Congress a critical voice in the ratification of treaties and
endorsement of global institutions, complicates U.S. assumptions of new international obligations." www.cfr.org...

So I believe we may need to differentiate between irrational conspiracy theories and reasonable suspicion.

My idea is that this tends to be the case here in the US, more so. My theory is that it has to do with the political climate of the US. For example, it seems that conspiracy theorists tend to be libertarian. Libertarians tend to be conservative, and conservatives, tend to be patriotic.

Libertarians don't "tend" to be conservative; they ARE conservative. Conservatism is a defining criterion for Libertarians. Conspiracy theorists tend to be both liberals AND conservatives. I myself seem to be a centrist leaning Libertarian. There are many republicans I feel are traitors to the Constitution just like Democrats. There are some liberal sects that, despite our disagreements, I feel are patriots.

Let's just say that for argument's sake that the Illuminati did worm their way into Freemasonry early on. Undoubtedly, at least a few of the Founding Father's were Masons. So many of the ideals that your country was founded upon were ideals that run contrary to what you have faith in.

The Illuminati's existence in the 1700s is also not in question. Even scholars know the Bavarian Illuminati existed until they were "officially" disbanded in 1784. I'm going to to use the term "conspiracy theorist" loosely here, like you. It's true, many conspiracy theorists equate masonry with a sinister group of elitists with nefarious plots and agendas known as the Illuminati, but the reality is that most of masonry is NOT this. Masonry, like most things, is ripe for producing cults.

What I'm getting here is that, no, just because a few founding fathers were Masons, it doesn't mean the ideals our country was founded runs contrary to what I/we have faith in. Yes, it is possible that the Illuminati survived its persecution and 'lurks in the shadows'.

reply to post by JohnFisher


You're sort of preaching to the choir because I agree with almost everything you're saying. The only things that I don't agree with are certain nuances in your statements.

would it be so bad? Global country, global freedom, global nation... I hope it will happen one day.

A very good question you pose here, and it's not easily answered. But here's my take on it:

Everybody knows the history of this country, the reason the revolution was started. The ideals of the founding fathers was a grand one. We, as Americans, know what this country was meant to be. We see the potential that this country has and the opportunity that it provides to the less fortunate, at least those willing to go through the proper channels to become a citizen. When politicians come to power and start to change the direction that this country should be going is when we get pissed. The United States of America is supposed to be the land of opportunity. A place where people who are repressed and treated like animals can come to begin anew. When that idea of freedom comes in to question by those who are elected to continue that idea, we get pissed. That's the best way I can explain it.

martinkb
would it be so bad? Global country, global freedom, global nation... I hope it will happen one day.

I think this is a pipe dream considering the common greed of man. Think of it this way: on man or woman will be in power. Or a group of people, at least. Like a world council. A representative from each part of the country will be a part of it. But that person will hold a certain power that others will lust. Just the power to control people period is a lust of many people in this world that can not be easily beaten. It will take a threat to this world from an outside source to bring the whole thing together.

I describe myself, politically, under the umbrella term 'libertarian'. I don't see how that automatically means I am a nazi. I'm Anti-Nationalist, Anti-Globalist, and Anti-Communist. I'm indifferent on socialism, because it could work on the local level, but I am Anti-Socialist when it comes to government and political systems. What we need is to go back to our roots and stop interfering in foreign countries, that is an Ultra-nationalist trait that I am opposed to 150%.

reply to post by brazenalderpadrescorpio


One thing in this thread is kind of being overlooked. In the case of Americans, maybe the nationalism in question is a sort of reaction to the sometimes fierce nationalism encountered from foreign nationals coming to the US. IE their consistent loyalty and identification with their home country instead of trying to assimilate and become Americans. Its ok to love the place you are from, I am not questioning that. But a subset of people are coming into the U.S. with an arrogant attitude and telling its citizens to "go back to Europe". I think its the encountering of that attitude that sets of nationalism sometimes. The feeling that the country is on some levels, being overrun by people who don't share our culture and values, puts some people off. One prime American value, is inclusion. We want to be one people, with one common language, so we are able to communicate. This has worked for a couple of centuries. Now for some reason the melting pot no longer seems to be melting, and it generates fear and apprehension in some of our citizens.

Don't know about ATS being more nationalist, but definitely more conservative.

studies are showing that liberals tend to have a larger and/or more active anterior cingulate cortex, or ACC—useful in detecting and judging conflict and error—and conservatives are more likely to have an enlarged amygdala, where the development and storage of emotional memories takes place. More than one study has shown these same results, which is why I felt it was worth investigating.
en.wikipedia.org...

Liberals are more ruled by logic and conservatives by emotions. Conspiracy theorists are more ruled by emotions too so they tend to be mostly conservatives, and thus maybe patriotic (it's even sometimes funny how contradicting some can be, being extremely patriotic "support our troops"-style and yet completely untrusting of the government).


Conspiracy theorists in the US also tend to be mostly white anglo-saxon protestants and pro-gun (to defend themselves against the evil gov trying to get them), to have poor critical judgement and a tendency for paranoia or other mental ailments.



Hopefully here the crowd is little more on the saner side but not completely.


P.S. : I'm not making any moral judgement here, I myself have been having a psychotic break and signs of paranoia and schizophrenia. These things happen (more than 1% of the US population has schizophrenia, 2.2 millions Americans, around the same numbers for paranoid personality disorders).

It's just that conspiracy sites tend to become echo chambers where paranoid and schizophrenics are able to mutually entertain their bizarre ideas, singling out and ridiculing any call to critical judgement as "sheeples", and thus favoring unhealthy beliefs and thought patterns.

It's OK to be a bit paranoid or open-minded to strange experience, but if it becomes the center point of your life and you aren't even capable of re-examining your conspiracy beliefs anymore, you are suffering from what is usually called delusion.


A true conspiracy theorists should be skeptical about everything. Even conspiracy theories.

openminded2011
reply to post by brazenalderpadrescorpio

 

In the case of Americans, maybe the nationalism in question is a sort of reaction to the sometimes fierce nationalism encountered from foreign nationals coming to the US. IE their consistent loyalty and identification with their home country instead of trying to assimilate and become Americans

Lol, no. I can tell you as a foreigner that Americans are among the most patriotic people worldwide not in reaction to others, but because they are raised that way.

Everything in your culture is oriented toward patriotism: saluting the flag, public display of flags and national anthem at any possible occasion, favoring american-made products, economical protectionism, more flags, emphasis on national security and terrorism, teaching the pride to be an american, even more flag. Etc...


Very few countries go as far as the US when it comes to national indoctrination in becoming "good patriotic citizen". This has nothing to do with foreigners and everything with your culture, historically, exactly like your gun problem or the general distrust toward the government.

openminded2011
reply to post by brazenalderpadrescorpio

 

One prime American value, is inclusion. We want to be one people

If that was true, how do you explain the treatment of black people in the south before the 60's?
Inclusion isn't a prime American value. You are raised believing it is but it is not in application. Just like you are raised to believe the American dream is possible for everyone while it's not the case.

reply to post by brazenalderpadrescorpio


I'm patriotic because 100 million people can do greater things than 10 people by themselves can. America has accomplished great things and it can become far greater than it already is, there are good people in this country as well and that is a reason to be patriotic. This applies to every nationality. That being said I may be patriotic but my loyalty lies to the good people of the world foremost before any nation. And about the NWO stuff, well I'd trust M1-6 by itself to run everything before I trusted 50 nations working separately and against each other. I imagine it takes a lot of hard work to get everyone to work together for the greater good and to get those fighting against each other to inadvertently do it for the greater good. It's sad that it has to be this way but bad individuals are the problem and always have been.

martinkb
would it be so bad? Global country, global freedom, global nation... I hope it will happen one day.

No way! That would be awful! One of the best thing about the Earth is the fermentation of cultures! If the system was simplified for everyone and every nation to participate in and was made completely convenient that would be way better. I love my USD but I wouldn't allow it to become the only currency. You only need 1 passport to go to any country, you only need 1 currency to exchange for any other currency. If anyone could buy property anywhere on Earth that would be the end all for me, as the soon to be emperor of the "nwo" I wouldn't take it further than that.

I'm a Libertarian. I find that the NWO, freemason conspiracy, and satanist agenda to be rather dubious and lacking. Of course, I'm a rather skeptical person who demands evidence in the face of outrageous claims. Instead I think that the problems of our world can just be traced to simple greed and power mongers. As a Libertarian I want to limit power mongering, that's all.

SpaceGoatFarts

openminded2011
reply to post by brazenalderpadrescorpio

 

In the case of Americans, maybe the nationalism in question is a sort of reaction to the sometimes fierce nationalism encountered from foreign nationals coming to the US. IE their consistent loyalty and identification with their home country instead of trying to assimilate and become Americans

Lol, no. I can tell you as a foreigner that Americans are among the most patriotic people worldwide not in reaction to others, but because they are raised that way.

Everything in your culture is oriented toward patriotism: saluting the flag, public display of flags and national anthem at any possible occasion, favoring american-made products, economical protectionism, more flags, emphasis on national security and terrorism, teaching the pride to be an american, even more flag. Etc...


Very few countries go as far as the US when it comes to national indoctrination in becoming "good patriotic citizen". This has nothing to do with foreigners and everything with your culture, historically, exactly like your gun problem or the general distrust toward the government.

openminded2011
reply to post by brazenalderpadrescorpio

 

One prime American value, is inclusion. We want to be one people

If that was true, how do you explain the treatment of black people in the south before the 60's?
Inclusion isn't a prime American value. You are raised believing it is but it is not in application. Just like you are raised to believe the American dream is possible for everyone while it's not the case.

edit on 15-4-2014 by SpaceGoatFarts because: (no reason given)

I feel like you're starting to characaturize all Americans as being the same and alike. That's kind of a bigoted assumption, you know? Not all of us believe the American dream is possible. I believe that is exactly what it is, a dream. Then you wake up of course. THAT'S WHEN IT BECOMES A GOAL.

Davian
I feel like you're starting to characaturize all Americans as being the same and alike. That's kind of a bigoted assumption, you know? Not all of us believe the American dream is possible. I believe that is exactly what it is, a dream. Then you wake up of course. THAT'S WHEN IT BECOMES A GOAL.

Generalization are easy and almost everyone is guilty of it at some point. But I'm not generalizing here.

I know very well many Americans aren't like that. Just saying that's how the vast majority of Americans are raised:

Surrounded by patriotism and the belief that the US is the greatest nation in the world where everything is possible if you work hard enough.

Caricatures are usually based on a bit of truth that gets exaggerated. I know you are all different and unique, but you can't deny the American culture is based on these values.

reply to post by brazenalderpadrescorpio


People get the wrong idea about patriotism. It is not blind for a start. I know, for example, that during the phase of empire building that my own nation went through, our country inflicted our culture, and our war and disease on other cultures, destroying many along the way. We became the very kind of imperialist bastards which showed up to butcher the ancient culture of the peoples who lived here before the Romans came.

We became our tormentors, which is to our shame. It is also a long time in the past. My nations government does things even now in the name of its people, which make me sick to my guts. Their foreign policy is murderous and foolish, their home affairs policies dispassionate and cold. These things I have no love for.

However, this country, for all its warts, has had some shining moments of grand achievement, had a hand in literally saving the world from the clutches of the most terrible organisation ever born unto the planet, has been home to some of the foremost minds in science, art, literature, architecture, engineering, music, and has a long historical record.

However, I feel patriotic about this land, because it is my home. I feel patriotic about this place, because this is where my ancestors were born, lived, and died. I feel love for this country, because both my Grandfathers fought to defend it from tyrants, and I respect their efforts, and the sacrifices that their generation were forced to make on my behalf, and the behalf of every other person living on this group of islands, not just those who have direct descendants who fought under a British flag, but everyone currently living here.

True patriotism does not involve toeing a party line, or believing the government story on every little thing. Patriotism, is about loving the country you live in, respecting the BEST of its history and culture, and striving to learn how to avoid repeating its worst mistakes. It is neither blind, nor arrogant, nor ignorant.

There are those who operate a system of what they call patriotism, but is actually xenophobia in disguise. You can tell them from the true believers if you will, by simply listening to what they have to say. A patriot will tell you how much he loves his country, but a xenophobe will follow a patriotic statement, by explaining his dislike of a certain group of people, based on that love, because of that love.

There is nothing wrong with being a patriot. There is nothing wrong with loving the place you are in, the place you are from. These are healthy, as they show respect for an ideal beyond simple grinding existence, an ability to comprehend that there is more to living than being a person on ones own, that being a part of a community, a nation, is something you feel conscious of, aware of, and proud of. But being blindly patriotic, to the point of being ignorant of all other places, cultures, ideals... that is not patriotism. Being blind to the failings of ones government, ethically and legally, or even finding excuses to gloss over the behavior of ones government, or ones chosen party however, are not symptomatic of patriotism. They are a consequence of stupidity and xenophobia.

Thankfully in most of my dealings with the membership here, I have to say that I have come across blatant xenophobia on only very rare occasions. I run across patriotism on a regular basis, and generally speaking I am happy to see it, no matter who from, or from where that member might hail. We should all be proud of our heritage, and conscious of the histories of our ancestors. Only by understanding the best values of, and learning how to avoid the worst fates, of those who came before us, can we ever hope to improve our own futures, and that of our descendants.

reply to post by martinkb


I think it depends on who's ruling. If we were all in an enlightened society that has learned to overcome its human difficulties, then you're right, it wouldn't be so bad. I think that people are scared of that happening under present conditions.