It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
OptimusSubprime
reply to post by AfterInfinity
All of the terrible things you mention are actually evidence of God's mercy. When you realize that all human beings are sinful by nature, and that all human beings deserve death, followed by an eternity of condemnation in hell, then the fact that we are even alive on this Earth is proof of a merciful God. If God were only just, without mercy, then we would all be in hell right now. We live in a fallen world, and what you have described is evidence of that, but there is freedom and liberty in Jesus Christ.
ServantOfTheLamb
Yet I have already shown you the statistical improbability of Abiogenesis. If you choose to put your faith in that rather than the supernatural that is fine, but it is dishonest to say that evidence points to that because it doesnt. Evidence seems to show that it is extremely unlikely.
SaturnFX
168617
SaturnFX
168617
Maybe your society shouldn't of turned from God in the first place and things might be a bit different. God is the Bible, Allah is the Qu'ran, I'm pretty sure both books could produce something better than what is called the United States of America in the state it's in right now.edit on 12-4-2014 by 168617 because: (no reason given)
Ahh yes, like the good ole dark ages...good times, good times.
3 cheers for a Spanish inquisition.
The estimate that over a million Iraqis have died received independent confirmation from a prestigious British polling agency in January 2008. Opinion Research Business estimated that the death toll between March 2003 and August 2007 was 1,033,000.
That's a democracy death count on mostly innocent people. 3 Cheers for Democracy (Which still hasn't been sighted in Iraq).
Cool story. Perhaps if the Iraqi people didn't turn from God...then erm...
etc.
Why blame the presence or lack of presence of deities on the turmoil of society? I tend to blame people with ambition...God didn't save the Iraqi's, nor did he save the jews in Germany, the Christians in Rome, etc...because at the very least, it appears God isn't about stepping in and stopping man from killing man...that's a decision we as grown ups have to one day come to.
It is the fact that the chemical reactions produce information that carries meaning. This argument is hard for you to grasp because it means you might have to admit you could be wrong. I have no problem admitting that I could be wrong. THat is why you see me using the word probable instead of speaking in absolutes as do many of us.
SaturnFX
ServantOfTheLamb
So are you saying that just because the planets are the same size they should support life?
Yes...that is obviously exactly what I am saying.
lol
(that's sarcasm btw). The suggestion is, the more favorable conditions are for life, the more likely it is we will find it. We are barely opening our eyes in space at this point though, so will need to advance our detection abilities for detecting the evidence of life, but with our latest tools, we have found not a few, or dozens, but in a very short time, hundreds upon hundreds of potentials.
ServantOfTheLamb
SaturnFX
ServantOfTheLamb
So are you saying that just because the planets are the same size they should support life?
Yes...that is obviously exactly what I am saying.
lol
(that's sarcasm btw). The suggestion is, the more favorable conditions are for life, the more likely it is we will find it. We are barely opening our eyes in space at this point though, so will need to advance our detection abilities for detecting the evidence of life, but with our latest tools, we have found not a few, or dozens, but in a very short time, hundreds upon hundreds of potentials.
Well I'd say until we verify one planet actually has life on it, I'd say the probability as of current information agrees with the theistic side of the argument.
Chamberf=6
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb
It is the fact that the chemical reactions produce information that carries meaning. This argument is hard for you to grasp because it means you might have to admit you could be wrong. I have no problem admitting that I could be wrong. THat is why you see me using the word probable instead of speaking in absolutes as do many of us.
Just one more before I am out of this redundant and pointless thread.
You may be using the words "probable" and improbable" every now and then, but it comes across pretty clear which side of the fence you are on and are therefore biased in your own way as far as "probable/improbable" goes.
I am agnostic, meaning basically "I don't know". To me there is no evidence that amounts to proof either way on the subject of "god"... and that doesn't bother me at all. I don't spend my time looking for something to make me believe specifically in a "god" (pick your favorite) or not.
I study and research a wide variety of subjects and look for evidence and proof in them, but coming out on the top in a "god" or no "god" debate will never happen for anyone, so not to sound as an over-all complacent person (just on this never ending debate) I say "why even bother".
That's my take and opinion on this "god"/no"god" (pick your favorite) issue.
But in this thread you asked specific things and said very specific things and I asked you questions. Is the argument "hard for me to grasp"?
No.
Do I see it as a thread that is just like thousands before it?
Yes.
Do I see it as pointless?
Yes.edit on 4/12/2014 by Chamberf=6 because: (no reason given)
AfterInfinity
ServantOfTheLamb
SaturnFX
ServantOfTheLamb
So are you saying that just because the planets are the same size they should support life?
Yes...that is obviously exactly what I am saying.
lol
(that's sarcasm btw). The suggestion is, the more favorable conditions are for life, the more likely it is we will find it. We are barely opening our eyes in space at this point though, so will need to advance our detection abilities for detecting the evidence of life, but with our latest tools, we have found not a few, or dozens, but in a very short time, hundreds upon hundreds of potentials.
Well I'd say until we verify one planet actually has life on it, I'd say the probability as of current information agrees with the theistic side of the argument.
Which would make a bigger difference if your opinion amounted to anything at all. In the big scheme of things, none of our opinions really matter. In a thousand years, no one will remember us. But at this point in time, the jury is still out. And no, your opinion is not the end of it, so don't act like it is. Neither is mine, and I'm happy with that. I just wish people didn't need a god in order to feel safe about not being an asshole - or safe at ally, for that matter. We are what we are because of what we've done, and we we'll be what we will be because of what we will do. No higher power need be involved because none can stop us, or they would have long ago.edit on 12-4-2014 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)
ArtemisE
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb
Actually as an atheist. That's a false comparison.
If Jesus shows up on the White House lawn, walking on water and making wine, every atheist will convert. That's the difference between faith and reason. Christians don't convert as the Big Bang is confirmed.
It's not at all the same thing.
ServantOfTheLamb
ArtemisE
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb
Actually as an atheist. That's a false comparison.
If Jesus shows up on the White House lawn, walking on water and making wine, every atheist will convert. That's the difference between faith and reason. Christians don't convert as the Big Bang is confirmed.
It's not at all the same thing.
The Big Bang does nothing but validate the Bibles claim that the universe had a beginning, so why would we convert when something backs up a Biblical claim in a huge way? Have you never heard the saying
"For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountain of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."
That was a from Robert Jastrow, an astronomer, physicist and cosmologist.
AfterInfinity
ServantOfTheLamb
Sremmos80
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb
Why would an agnostic want to play the "prove there is no god" game...?
Why would any one want to play that game? No one ever wins
Why didn't anyone pay attention to me when I stated in the OP that I am not asking for proof. Just evidence. For example, If Santa Clause was real we would see Him at the North Pole. Santa is not there. Nothing at the North Pole implies Santa is there. Therefore it is not probable(not impossible) that a Fat Man in a Red Suit with magical elves and reindeer doesn't live at the north pole. Also since I moved out of my parents house he quit visiting.
Now you should be able to give a similar deduction as to why God is not probable.edit on 12-4-2014 by ServantOfTheLamb because: (no reason given)
I find it difficult to believe that you can so easily execute that kind of deduction and still find yourself at a loss regarding our skepticism. It's not a big leap from one to the other.
That statement is completely subjective. Christians would say they experience God Daily as would people of ancient times. Religion has always been a part of people. So based on your own argument I'd say [you're] just misinformed.
ServantOfTheLamb
You just answered the Problem of Evil on your own friend. "We are what we are because of what we've done, and we will be what we will be because of what we will do." God created free will which gave way to the potential for Evil. He created that and lets you choose what you choose because He wants to know you. According to what you just said, if he had created the universe in any other way He couldn't have known you nor I.
SaturnFX
ServantOfTheLamb
ArtemisE
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb
Actually as an atheist. That's a false comparison.
If Jesus shows up on the White House lawn, walking on water and making wine, every atheist will convert. That's the difference between faith and reason. Christians don't convert as the Big Bang is confirmed.
It's not at all the same thing.
The Big Bang does nothing but validate the Bibles claim that the universe had a beginning, so why would we convert when something backs up a Biblical claim in a huge way? Have you never heard the saying
"For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountain of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."
That was a from Robert Jastrow, an astronomer, physicist and cosmologist.
Actually, the big bang does nothing of the sort.
Big bang is a explosion of matter which formed into the stars and planets. Earth formed well after our star
Genesis states this:
1) God makes light and dark, light is day, dark is night. (Not the sun, just..you know..light without source)
2)God separated water and made it the sky (where the sun lives)
3) God creates earth, dry ground is the land, wet ground is the sea. then makes plants and trees n stuff
4) God creates the sun, moon, and the stars (rest of the universe in a day..aka, on day 4 is the big bang..after the earth has trees n stuff)
5) God creates the animals
6) Man comes
7) Union calls for a break
As you can see, the big bang couldn't be further from the biblical creation story.
3)
LesMisanthrope
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb
That statement is completely subjective. Christians would say they experience God Daily as would people of ancient times. Religion has always been a part of people. So based on your own argument I'd say [you're] just misinformed.
Every statement is subjective.
If by "experience God" you simply mean Christians pray, or go to church, or adhere to certain doctrines I would agree—and yes, religion has always been a part of people and always will be—but "experiencing God" amounts to no more than having a certain feeling or idea and naming it "God".