Good evidence for Atheism and Theism.

ServantOfTheLamb
I believe in Science and God. Just because Science can explain something(most of which works in a very precise fine-tuned way which implies intelligence imo) doesn't mean it was not created by God.

Why is your belief in a supernatural deity important in finding physical works of said deity?

Some spiritualists simply see the whole spirit realm not as creators of the physical universe, but rather of beings basically hijacking these basic physical animals and riding/experiencing this universe through their life. They didn't create it, they are simply exploring it.
If you believe in a perfect god/spiritual world, then life itself, as imperfect as it is (lion will eat the cubs of a lioness if she pays too much attention to them over him..nature..love it) simply wouldn't have been created by such a being..else things without free will (such as the other animals of this world) would be of perfection and balance.

SaturnFX

ServantOfTheLamb
what is the probability of an explosion bringing a finely tune environment such as this?

PS and which side of the argument does this probability lie upon? Theistic or Atheistic. If it is statistically impossible, then creation itself would be considered a miracle. If the explosion turned out to do pretty much the same thing everytime then it would be on the Atheistic side of the argument.

edit on 12-4-2014 by ServantOfTheLamb because: (no reason given)

Well, I would say 100% considering its here.

But on a cosmological scale, not very high..probably why most of what we see so far is dead husks, gas giants, and other lifeless crap planets.

But here is where it happened to work perfectly, right distance, right materials to allow for all this stuff. Granted, took over 4 billion years of smashing around and all sorts before intelligent life popped up, but it got there eventually. A god would have made quick work of this..maybe I donno..6 days or so.

So you agree that if we were to say redo the big bang that the probability that we would still be here is small. In fact the laws of physics might even be different according to Lawrence Krauss. So my point is that the fact that after one explosion that created everything and after we have calculated the likelihood of it occurring the way it did to produce not just life but the fine precise tuning and found it to be highly improbable, you still think it is likely that random chance is what caused this?

SaturnFX

ServantOfTheLamb
I believe in Science and God. Just because Science can explain something(most of which works in a very precise fine-tuned way which implies intelligence imo) doesn't mean it was not created by God.

Why is your belief in a supernatural deity important in finding physical works of said deity?

Some spiritualists simply see the whole spirit realm not as creators of the physical universe, but rather of beings basically hijacking these basic physical animals and riding/experiencing this universe through their life. They didn't create it, they are simply exploring it.
If you believe in a perfect god/spiritual world, then life itself, as imperfect as it is (lion will eat the cubs of a lioness if she pays too much attention to them over him..nature..love it) simply wouldn't have been created by such a being..else things without free will (such as the other animals of this world) would be of perfection and balance.

And according to the Bible, things used to be perfect and in balance before the fall. We have no way of studying life before the Fall. It is all we know.

168617
Maybe your society shouldn't of turned from God in the first place and things might be a bit different. God is the Bible, Allah is the Qu'ran, I'm pretty sure both books could produce something better than what is called the United States of America in the state it's in right now.

edit on 12-4-2014 by 168617 because: (no reason given)

Ahh yes, like the good ole dark ages...good times, good times.
3 cheers for a Spanish inquisition.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

Why didn't anyone pay attention to me when I stated in the OP that I am not asking for proof. Just evidence. For example, If Santa Clause was real we would see Him at the North Pole. Santa is not there. Nothing at the North Pole implies Santa is there. Therefore it is not probable(not impossible) that a Fat Man in a Red Suit with magical elves and reindeer doesn't live at the north pole. Also since I moved out of my parents house he quit visiting.

Now you should be able to give a similar deduction as to why God is not probable.

Every time we open our eyes, and every moment we do not experience God, is an ever growing pile of evidence. This evidence has been compiling for thousands of years. If we were to compare evidence for and against, there is a clear indication which conclusion is more probable.

SaturnFX

168617
Maybe your society shouldn't of turned from God in the first place and things might be a bit different. God is the Bible, Allah is the Qu'ran, I'm pretty sure both books could produce something better than what is called the United States of America in the state it's in right now.

edit on 12-4-2014 by 168617 because: (no reason given)

Ahh yes, like the good ole dark ages...good times, good times.
3 cheers for a Spanish inquisition.

The estimate that over a million Iraqis have died received independent confirmation from a prestigious British polling agency in January 2008. Opinion Research Business estimated that the death toll between March 2003 and August 2007 was 1,033,000.

That's a democracy death count on mostly innocent people. 3 Cheers for Democracy (Which still hasn't been sighted in Iraq).

btw, I try to stay away from the word "proof" as it is subjective. When you go into a courtroom, you present evidence..even if the evidence is solid. it is only considered proof after judgement is made and it swayed someone in one direction or another. So far, all evidence seems to lead to abiogenesis that set off complexity eventually. No evidence of supernatural origins on this level...still a work in progress of course...but roadsigns point to that being the likely scenario.

reply to post by SaturnFX



Please show me this evidence. This is what I created the thread for and have gotten hogswash for evidence.

ServantOfTheLamb
So you agree that if we were to say redo the big bang that the probability that we would still be here is small. In fact the laws of physics might even be different according to Lawrence Krauss. So my point is that the fact that after one explosion that created everything and after we have calculated the likelihood of it occurring the way it did to produce not just life but the fine precise tuning and found it to be highly improbable, you still think it is likely that random chance is what caused this?

1 in a million maybe
but in a universe of trillions...in regards to a solar system, rare, in regards to a galaxy, perhaps fairly common, and in a universe, a dime a dozen.

1 in a million may be wildly exaggerated however.
NASA’s Kepler discovers 715 new planets, many of which are near-Earth sized

NASA’s Kepler mission has announced the discovery of 715 new planets — almost doubling the total number of known exoplanets to nearly 1,700. These planets orbit just 305 stars, meaning they belong to multiple-planet solar systems just like our own — and, perhaps excitingly, nearly all of the planets are smaller than Neptune, which is only four times larger than Earth

Ultimately, we would -like to think- we are rare, but it seems our latest views of our milky way is showing this may not be the case...maybe 1 in a hundred...or less.

put that equation on a galactic or universal scale...one crowded reality we may be existing in.

LesMisanthrope
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

Why didn't anyone pay attention to me when I stated in the OP that I am not asking for proof. Just evidence. For example, If Santa Clause was real we would see Him at the North Pole. Santa is not there. Nothing at the North Pole implies Santa is there. Therefore it is not probable(not impossible) that a Fat Man in a Red Suit with magical elves and reindeer doesn't live at the north pole. Also since I moved out of my parents house he quit visiting.

Now you should be able to give a similar deduction as to why God is not probable.

Every time we open our eyes, and every moment we do not experience God, is an ever growing pile of evidence. This evidence has been compiling for thousands of years. If we were to compare evidence for and against, there is a clear indication which conclusion is more probable.

edit on 12-4-2014 by LesMisanthrope because: (no reason given)

That statement is completely subjective. Christians would say they experience God Daily as would people of ancient times. Religion has always been a part of people. So based on your own argument I'd say your just misinformed.

ServantOfTheLamb

btw, I try to stay away from the word "proof" as it is subjective. When you go into a courtroom, you present evidence..even if the evidence is solid. it is only considered proof after judgement is made and it swayed someone in one direction or another. So far, all evidence seems to lead to abiogenesis that set off complexity eventually. No evidence of supernatural origins on this level...still a work in progress of course...but roadsigns point to that being the likely scenario.

reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Please show me this evidence. This is what I created the thread for and have gotten hogswash for evidence.

The evidence is life.

If you come across a person dying with a bullet in their stomach, this is evidence that a gun was used. sure...god may have made a hole randomly in this person and shoved a bullet into the hole for ? reason, but the evidence suggests it was a gun at work here.

Life is, in the same way, evidence of abiogenesis...the only other explanation is supernatural..and "god did it" is not in the realm of scientific investigation.

SaturnFX

ServantOfTheLamb
So you agree that if we were to say redo the big bang that the probability that we would still be here is small. In fact the laws of physics might even be different according to Lawrence Krauss. So my point is that the fact that after one explosion that created everything and after we have calculated the likelihood of it occurring the way it did to produce not just life but the fine precise tuning and found it to be highly improbable, you still think it is likely that random chance is what caused this?

1 in a million maybe
but in a universe of trillions...in regards to a solar system, rare, in regards to a galaxy, perhaps fairly common, and in a universe, a dime a dozen.

1 in a million may be wildly exaggerated however.
NASA’s Kepler discovers 715 new planets, many of which are near-Earth sized

NASA’s Kepler mission has announced the discovery of 715 new planets — almost doubling the total number of known exoplanets to nearly 1,700. These planets orbit just 305 stars, meaning they belong to multiple-planet solar systems just like our own — and, perhaps excitingly, nearly all of the planets are smaller than Neptune, which is only four times larger than Earth

Ultimately, we would -like to think- we are rare, but it seems our latest views of our milky way is showing this may not be the case...maybe 1 in a hundred...or less.

put that equation on a galactic or universal scale...one crowded reality we may be existing in.

So are you saying that just because the planets are the same size they should support life?

168617

SaturnFX

168617
Maybe your society shouldn't of turned from God in the first place and things might be a bit different. God is the Bible, Allah is the Qu'ran, I'm pretty sure both books could produce something better than what is called the United States of America in the state it's in right now.

edit on 12-4-2014 by 168617 because: (no reason given)

Ahh yes, like the good ole dark ages...good times, good times.
3 cheers for a Spanish inquisition.

The estimate that over a million Iraqis have died received independent confirmation from a prestigious British polling agency in January 2008. Opinion Research Business estimated that the death toll between March 2003 and August 2007 was 1,033,000.

That's a democracy death count on mostly innocent people. 3 Cheers for Democracy (Which still hasn't been sighted in Iraq).

Cool story. Perhaps if the Iraqi people didn't turn from God...then erm...

etc.

Why blame the presence or lack of presence of deities on the turmoil of society? I tend to blame people with ambition...God didn't save the Iraqi's, nor did he save the jews in Germany, the Christians in Rome, etc...because at the very least, it appears God isn't about stepping in and stopping man from killing man...that's a decision we as grown ups have to one day come to.

SaturnFX

ServantOfTheLamb

btw, I try to stay away from the word "proof" as it is subjective. When you go into a courtroom, you present evidence..even if the evidence is solid. it is only considered proof after judgement is made and it swayed someone in one direction or another. So far, all evidence seems to lead to abiogenesis that set off complexity eventually. No evidence of supernatural origins on this level...still a work in progress of course...but roadsigns point to that being the likely scenario.

reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Please show me this evidence. This is what I created the thread for and have gotten hogswash for evidence.

The evidence is life.

If you come across a person dying with a bullet in their stomach, this is evidence that a gun was used. sure...god may have made a hole randomly in this person and shoved a bullet into the hole for ? reason, but the evidence suggests it was a gun at work here.

Life is, in the same way, evidence of abiogenesis...the only other explanation is supernatural..and "god did it" is not in the realm of scientific investigation.

Yet I have already shown you the statistical improbability of Abiogenesis. If you choose to put your faith in that rather than the supernatural that is fine, but it is dishonest to say that evidence points to that because it doesnt. Evidence seems to show that it is extremely unlikely.

SaturnFX

168617

SaturnFX

168617
Maybe your society shouldn't of turned from God in the first place and things might be a bit different. God is the Bible, Allah is the Qu'ran, I'm pretty sure both books could produce something better than what is called the United States of America in the state it's in right now.

edit on 12-4-2014 by 168617 because: (no reason given)

Ahh yes, like the good ole dark ages...good times, good times.
3 cheers for a Spanish inquisition.

The estimate that over a million Iraqis have died received independent confirmation from a prestigious British polling agency in January 2008. Opinion Research Business estimated that the death toll between March 2003 and August 2007 was 1,033,000.

That's a democracy death count on mostly innocent people. 3 Cheers for Democracy (Which still hasn't been sighted in Iraq).

Cool story. Perhaps if the Iraqi people didn't turn from God...then erm...

etc.

Why blame the presence or lack of presence of deities on the turmoil of society? I tend to blame people with ambition...God didn't save the Iraqi's, nor did he save the jews in Germany, the Christians in Rome, etc...because at the very least, it appears God isn't about stepping in and stopping man from killing man...that's a decision we as grown ups have to one day come to.

Thank God we have Russia.

ServantOfTheLamb
So are you saying that just because the planets are the same size they should support life?

Yes...that is obviously exactly what I am saying.
lol

(that's sarcasm btw). The suggestion is, the more favorable conditions are for life, the more likely it is we will find it. We are barely opening our eyes in space at this point though, so will need to advance our detection abilities for detecting the evidence of life, but with our latest tools, we have found not a few, or dozens, but in a very short time, hundreds upon hundreds of potentials.

ServantOfTheLamb

Grimpachi

ServantOfTheLamb

Grimpachi
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

I already said in my previous reply that there is no "evidence" for some creator deity.


Perhaps you do not understand that the one making claims of the existence for something is the one who must provide evidence of its existence. The non believer does not need to provide evidence of non existance as that is illogical.

It seems your entire premise falls under a logical fallacy.

And I have provided some already. However what you are telling me is I must back up my world view that is an absolute, but you can pass that judgement upon your own world view.

My premise is not flawed. No one has an argument that is why. My parents have also admitted to delivering those Gifts therefore it is still improbable that Santa is real.

First off you were having the conversation about Santa with someone else. Try to keep things strait when replying.

Your premise is based of a logical fallacy you have simply switched the words proof with evidence and asked us to prove a negative.

As far as what you have provided as evidence...well...the bible is not evidence of anything except that man has imagination. As far as DNA encoding and sequences you have yet to demonstrate that those things could not come about naturally without the help or direction of some deity. So no you have not provided any evidence of a deity so far.

What you are failing to understand is that I have not just swapped those words. It is not impossible to show something is improbable. I am not asking for certainty I am asking for numbers. For example what is the probability of an explosion bringing a finely tune environment such as this?

PS and which side of the argument does this probability lie upon? Theistic or Atheistic. If it is statistically impossible, then creation itself would be considered a miracle. If the explosion turned out to do pretty much the same thing everytime then it would be on the Atheistic side of the argument.

edit on 12-4-2014 by ServantOfTheLamb because: (no reason given)

So now you move the goal to show things are improbable. As far as the gog argument I can't give probabilities on something for which there is no evidence to base off of. You did swap the words.

The probability for the environment we have now is a 100%. Calling it fine tuned is a miscaricterization beyond exaggeration. The universe is a disorganized mess constantly colliding and being torn apart by itself. Even nature the environment here on earth will kill you. Hurricanes, volcanos, tsunamis, tornados, lightning, and earthquakes to name just a few. My bike is fine tuned the universe is a mess.

What side does what argument lay on, the existence of the universe?

I don't think it is an argument for either how could it be.

windword
reply to post by benrl

 

Theist, and Atheist that try to argue physics, should stick to philosophy first and foremost as even trained scientist hesitate to rule out outside causes.

Neither should Christians, then. I'm not the one who brought the "dual particle/wave...observer" question in the first place, the OP did. But, I still think my question is valid.

If the OP, or anyone else, thinks that the observer effect proves the existence of god, and we are all observers, does that make us all gods?

Are Christians not Theist? or did I leave that out of my post, I believe I said BOTH theist and atheist, yep its right there in the quoted part.

It makes both sound ignorant, and is silly to argue.

As neither is right on the matter, it is a Philosophy debate, not pseudo science to be argued by non-scientist.

Its why I hated the Bill nye debate,

It was someone who is not a Scientist, arguing with a Theist who was also equally untrained in his own theology.

If I wanted that level of debate Id come to ATS.

Oh wait...

168617

AfterInfinity
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

I am not asking for proof, but rather just something we see in the natural world that implies there is no design, and that it is improbable that a God exist.

Cancer. Please show me where God is in that. Or child molestation. Or a shootout at the local school. Or a shootout at the movie theater. Or a bombing at a marathon. Or planes crashing into towers full of innocent people. Or an aerial strike slaughtering thousands of men and women at harbor. Rape. Murder. Disease. Abuse. Starvation. Negligence. Should I go on? There's about 500,000 years worth of stupid, violent, unnecessary and very damaging stuff that's happened without any discernible cause or justification. Stuff that, should a god exist, would force any reasonable thinking individual to call into question that entity's regard for our well-being.

edit on 12-4-2014 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

And what? Because your society is screwed that must mean there is no God? Maybe your society shouldn't of turned from God in the first place and things might be a bit different. God is the Bible, Allah is the Qu'ran, I'm pretty sure both books could produce something better than what is called the United States of America in the state it's in right now.

edit on 12-4-2014 by 168617 because: (no reason given)

Oh, nice little baiting trick. But America is not the topic, nor is it at all relevant. Keep your political barbs to the political forums. At least America requires child molestation to be reported to the proper authorities, unlike certain religious establishments.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


All of the terrible things you mention are actually evidence of God's mercy. When you realize that all human beings are sinful by nature, and that all human beings deserve death, followed by an eternity of condemnation in hell, then the fact that we are even alive on this Earth is proof of a merciful God. If God were only just, without mercy, then we would all be in hell right now. We live in a fallen world, and what you have described is evidence of that, but there is freedom and liberty in Jesus Christ.

Here are a few things to consider when getting in to the conversation that was started with this thread.

Q: Do you believe in a single God, multiple gods, or no Gods, and why?

This is a good question to think on because it will usually show that despite claims of being neutral, most people are anything but, and have preconceived notions based off of what they were taught and what is popular in society at the moment.

Q: Where is the line between faith and insanity?

If one person believes in something that can't be seen, heard or touched, and is impossible to prove, they are considered Insane. If a group of people all believe in the same thing, they have Faith. What is the difference?

Q: Why do you choose to believe in what you believe over any or all of the 1200+ known gods that have been worshipped in recorded history? Were the other gods real, or fake? Were they real at the time, but then died, making room for the next? If one is "more real" than the rest, why?

There is nothing that can be presented as evidence for why one deity is "more real" than any other throughout history, leaving only "faith". People through out history had "faith" in their particular god, but modern religion claims they were all wrong. If they were wrong then that means their "faith" was worthless. Who's to say that in 500 years there won't be a new God, or gods. How much value will "faith" in the past gods have then?

DC