The Law: Explained with Old and New Testament.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


Just picking up that surely the original tablets given by 'God' to the Jews were destroyed and the new tablets were written supposedly by Moses - whom no one can actually provide any proof that he lived or that the Red Sea was parted to allow the Exodus. Having grown up with the idea preached from the pulpit that the Jews built the pyramids and all sorts of other claims which now seem to have been ' put to bed' surely we are simply left with a set of laws given to a group of people by their own priests. And consequently their priest's own desires in order to get the gaggle of people into a unified military unit so they could take a decent piece of land for themselves. Its always very conveniently forgotted that in the stories God ordered the impalling of the leaders of the men who preferred to worship the 'golden calf' and kept impalling till the people capitulated. It was also clear that Moses was especially afraid of 'his God'. Its also forgotten that the Egyptians defeated the Jews in battle and so Canaan became a part of Egypt which is why there are the remains and artefacts from Egyptian rule. That land was also in the past governed by the Babylonians who also defeated the Jews and due to non-payment of taxes after two years simply carried off most of the people there and their Royal Family in slavery.

The rules that bothered your Brother so much (IMHO) are purely for the increase in numbers. If homosexuality was allowed and it is rampant in the stories in the Bible, then pro-creation was going to be slowed - fewer soldiers. As God is acknowledged to have made us all and is watching us all, if he 'hated' homosexuals so much he would surely not have created them in the first place.

In mythology the Sky God and Mother earth work together. Scientifically it is proposed that the planet is a living organism which is hard to dispute. Apart from not having enough people to the other extreme of having too many, homosexuality is one obvious natural method of controlling population. It comes down to real faith, either one trusts God's judgement and accepts what he creates with dignity or one nit-picks and ends up with priestly rules, which go against God's creation. If you follow a religion from the bronze age, or even earlier, then you get bronze age needs and ideals.

reply to post by Shiloh7


I hope it was clear that I believe Homosexuals are no different than any other sinner. I was only saying that we misinterpret the Old Law . It was a Law meant for the Jews. Yes there are other places in the OT were God shows his wrath, but as far as I know he always sends them a warning and gives them plenty of time to comply.

Just picking up that surely the original tablets given by 'God' to the Jews were destroyed and the new tablets were written supposedly by Moses - whom no one can actually provide any proof that he lived or that the Red Sea was parted to allow the Exodus. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by Shiloh7




www.smithsonianmag.com...

Interesting little read. I'd say its to be taken with salt, but it is definitely possible.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

Romans 3:20 tells us the law was given so that we may understand our sin, and when one understand sin they can then understand their need for a savior.

It doesn't say that. It says that we needed another form of righteousness than by the old written Mosaic Law. It isn't about someone else being righteous "for us", it is righteousness through spiritual means, that we do as our faith guides us.

Jesus came to hit the mark, and provide the sacrifice that allowed all people to be saved by Grace rather than thru the Law.

"Saved by Grace" has to do with being accepted into the community.
Gentiles can can sit with Jew converts to Christianity, to eat together as one community of Christians because it is something not based on keeping the old written Mosaic Law, but what God did for us through Jesus.
You may have in your mind, an idea of what "saved" means that comes from modern pop-culture religion, and not the Bible.
In the New Testament, saved does not mean a guaranteed golden ticket to the Rapture.
That is something invented after the Bible was written, and not the intent of the biblical writers.
Jesus is never described in the Bible as having "hit the mark" to create a substitutionary righteousness.
That is a later theological invention.
The Bible never describes Jesus as a substitutionary sacrifice to take away our "sin guilt".
God offered Jesus to the people of the world as a way of reconciling us to God, by our seeing that He is reaching out to us.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


That wasn't the word of God, that was the word of whoever wrote it. God speaks in love, not fear

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

The punishment for all sin is death. So putting someone to death for sin is technically just, and is what is deserved. My brother was not concerned with this, but rather if all sins are equal in God's eyes, why then the harsher punishment for sexual immoralities? I believe this can be justified because God didn't want any attempt at the bloodline of the Messiah being misconstrued. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

I just marvel at how some Christians can justify murder!

So, in your opinion, God ordered the death of homosexuals to protect the bloodline that Jesus was to suppose to incarnate into? But, gay sex doesn't produce children?!!

So, star crossed teenage lovers, caught in the act, should be stoned to death because the child that "she" may be carrying wasn't ordained to be by the elders, and Jesus my incarnated into a blood line tainted by bastardization, so, all three of them should be killed..... But abortion is wrong??!!! Got it! LOL

reply to post by windword


Haha I think you need to clarify to him that alot of the old testament was the laws at the time, and laws are interchangeable through time and not always perfect. People are born gay. Or bisexual, there would have been fear at that time because they lost understanding that all sexual energy is free to be expressed.

reply to post by ScottProphhit


Right. They were laws of the time, dictated and applied by men. I can believe in no loving God that would write laws that have people stoning their own children for exploring their spirituality, speaking out against their elders or having unauthorized sex.

Wait.... are you saying that gay sex would somehow taint the bloodline of Jesus? How is that even possible? Gay sex doesn't produce any children.

Even if it could somehow taint the bloodline, why was god afraid of this when he is supposedly all powerful and able to prevent this from happening with just a simple thought or wave of a hand? You probably should have thought this through a little more.

"Thou shalt not kill... unless I say its ok"? Seems like god is sending mixed signals here.

3NL1GHT3N3D1

simple thought or wave of a hand?

Take a quick look at the Sikh image of God to understand you should try to use that as only a metaphor. God thinks in all of us.

reply to post by ScottProphhit


I'm not sure what you mean by looking at the Sikh god? How is it a metaphor?

I agree that God thinks through us because we are how God experiences itself.

windword
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

The punishment for all sin is death. So putting someone to death for sin is technically just, and is what is deserved. My brother was not concerned with this, but rather if all sins are equal in God's eyes, why then the harsher punishment for sexual immoralities? I believe this can be justified because God didn't want any attempt at the bloodline of the Messiah being misconstrued. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

I just marvel at how some Christians can justify murder!

So, in your opinion, God ordered the death of homosexuals to protect the bloodline that Jesus was to suppose to incarnate into? But, gay sex doesn't produce children?!!

So, star crossed teenage lovers, caught in the act, should be stoned to death because the child that "she" may be carrying wasn't ordained to be by the elders, and Jesus my incarnated into a blood line tainted by bastardization, so, all three of them should be killed..... But abortion is wrong??!!! Got it! LOL

Thats exactly my point. If the wrong Jew were to fall to that desire then it could have stopped the Messiah from being born(Was Satan's Goal before the Messiah). Your ignoring certain parts of the op

jmdewey60
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

Romans 3:20 tells us the law was given so that we may understand our sin, and when one understand sin they can then understand their need for a savior.

It doesn't say that. It says that we needed another form of righteousness than by the old written Mosaic Law. It isn't about someone else being righteous "for us", it is righteousness through spiritual means, that we do as our faith guides us.

Jesus came to hit the mark, and provide the sacrifice that allowed all people to be saved by Grace rather than thru the Law.

"Saved by Grace" has to do with being accepted into the community.
Gentiles can can sit with Jew converts to Christianity, to eat together as one community of Christians because it is something not based on keeping the old written Mosaic Law, but what God did for us through Jesus.
You may have in your mind, an idea of what "saved" means that comes from modern pop-culture religion, and not the Bible.
In the New Testament, saved does not mean a guaranteed golden ticket to the Rapture.
That is something invented after the Bible was written, and not the intent of the biblical writers.
Jesus is never described in the Bible as having "hit the mark" to create a substitutionary righteousness.
That is a later theological invention.
The Bible never describes Jesus as a substitutionary sacrifice to take away our "sin guilt".
God offered Jesus to the people of the world as a way of reconciling us to God, by our seeing that He is reaching out to us.

edit on 10-4-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Jesus says he came to fulfill the Law and Prophets. This is him "hitting the mark." A righteous man for an unrighteous mankind. A show of God's love for us, and through His name we can be cleansed.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
Wait.... are you saying that gay sex would somehow taint the bloodline of Jesus? How is that even possible? Gay sex doesn't produce any children.

Even if it could somehow taint the bloodline, why was god afraid of this when he is supposedly all powerful and able to prevent this from happening with just a simple thought or wave of a hand? You probably should have thought this through a little more.

"Thou shalt not kill... unless I say its ok"? Seems like god is sending mixed signals here.

My God cannot stop Humans from doing anything. He can ask Humans to do things, but ultimately it is up to them to decide whether or not to listen. Free will.

No what I was saying is that God gave that law to the Jews in order to protect the Messiah. It was never meant to be applied to Gentiles. If a member of the bloodline were to become Homosexual(therefore never bearing a child) then it would have stopped the Messiah from being born. But it isnt just for homosexuality, it is any sexual immorality that might taint a bloodline. Look at Leviticus 20 with that in mind and it is obvious. The Law always points to Jesus.

When Jesus willingly went to His death, God entered a New Covenant of Grace with all people.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

If the wrong Jew were to fall to that desire then it could have stopped the Messiah from being born(Was Satan's Goal before the Messiah). Your ignoring certain parts of the op - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

What a small and tedious god you have.

As it was, as the myth goes, God had to find a virgin to use anyway. I guess there was no decent sperm at all left on earth. We don't even know God used Mary's own egg, or if he used a perfect one from "Heaven" were he got the perfect sperm from in the first place.

windword
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

If the wrong Jew were to fall to that desire then it could have stopped the Messiah from being born(Was Satan's Goal before the Messiah). Your ignoring certain parts of the op - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

What a small and tedious god you have.

As it was, as the myth goes, God had to find a virgin to use anyway. I guess there was no decent sperm at all left on earth. We don't even know God used Mary's own egg, or if he used a perfect one from "Heaven" were he got the perfect sperm from in the first place.

God is small and tedious because He gives humans free will?

God had to use a virgin, because sin nature is something that is passed on by the Male. Bible explains all that.

Jesus gave all of his teaching on The Sermon of The Mount.
Here is a summary, after he is done explaining it all, he summed it up like this:

Luke 6:34

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

Do this, and you will be a Child of The Most High (God).

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

God is small and tedious because He gives humans free will?

First of all, the god of the Old Testament does not offer free will. He condemns it and uses every trick to get you abandon it. There is no free will when a gun is held to your head.

Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away…

See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess.

But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish…I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live…. (Deut. 30:11–19)

God had to use a virgin, because sin nature is something that is passed on by the Male. Bible explains all that. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Where does the Bible explain "original sin" or that "original sin" is passed down through the male? Are you going to refer me to Paul?

Original sin is not supported by the Bible.

The Bible says the the Messiah was to be from the line of David. David was a male. David sinned. Your god appears small and tedious because, according to you, he was killing homosexuals, fornicators and adulterers to protect the blood line of David, a fornicator, adulterer and one who was in love and kissed a naked man, Jonathan.

First of all, the god of the Old Testament does not offer free will. He condemns it and uses every trick to get you abandon it. There is no free will when a gun is held to your head. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by windword


You then continue by quoting Deuteronomy


See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess.

But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish…I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live…. (Deut. 30:11–19)

Here God tells you that He has set specific choices before your.."I have set before life and death, blessings and curses." God gives you choices those choices are up to you. This passage also tells you the benefits or consequences of those choices. At no point in time does God say you don't have the right to choose.

Here is an analogy, You are standing before two paths. God, who cannot lie, stands beside you. He tells you one path leads to life and blessing and the other path leads to death and curses. Then He leaves and allows you to decide which path to take. Just because He tells you what will happen if you do not follow Him does not mean he is holding a gun to your head. He is merely informing you of the consequence of your actions.

Where does the Bible explain "original sin" or that "original sin" is passed down through the male? Are you going to refer me to Paul? Original sin is not supported by the Bible. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

What is your definition of original sin? I would like to see if I agree with it before I continue.

The Bible says the the Messiah was to be from the line of David. David was a male. David sinned. Your god appears small and tedious because, according to you, he was killing homosexuals, fornicators and adulterers to protect the blood line of David, a fornicator, adulterer and one who was in love and kissed a naked man, Jonathan - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Yes David struggled with Sin. We all struggle with Sin. That is the reason the Law was given.

Romans 3
20 because by the works [a]of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

No sin is greater than another. So even if David was only a liar, you could still call him and adulterer or a homosexual. No one can keep the Law. None is righetous-No not one.