Obamacare is working!

Gryphon66
reply to post by HomerinNC

 

Friend, I think that name-calling by and large is counterproductive, but everyone's mileage varies.

ACA is not perfect by a longshot ... a long long shot, but it's not what killed that lady in the article.

What should have been done was single payer for every American citizen equal (at least) to the Federal Employee Benefit Plan.

I don't care how we pay for it. Close a war. Sell a few drones. Fire Congress. Rent the Capital.

it's easy to do..and i think the term "single payer" is a bit of a misnomer, don't you? what it is is crowdfunded medical services.....kinda like kickstarter for medicine...

anyway, the way you do it, and i've outlined this already, but i'll be happy to type it up again, is you add a tax of 100 dollars a month. if you're being paid every two weeks, that boils down to 50 dollars per paycheck.....

you set up an independent NON-GOVERNMENT entity, to manage the program, with strict controls, and oversight. you immediately repeal the ACA....you take the money, dump it to the managing entity, and they pay the hospitals, doctors, etc.....you have set rates for things, and you put strict regulations on pharmaceutical companies, and medical device manufactures, so that they are no longer able to price-gouge the american people.

this keeps the costs low, ensures that EVERY american citizen has access to medical services, and having it managed by an independent entity, hopefully ensures that the money we're all dumping into the pot, isn't embezzled by the federal government...

of course, this isn't a comprehensive description of the whole thing as i would do it, but if i were to lay that out, i'd need about 10 or so maxed out posts to do it..

UziXxX

marg6043
reply to post by UziXxX

 

Sorry to bring this to you, Obama and Bush has been nothing but big government spenders, working with a broken economy, but Reagan was the one that handle the government to the hands of the corporate power, becoming the corporate government we have today.

He is been hailed as a savior, but in reality he just screwed the economy to the point that the results of all the subsequence policies of later presidents still can not fix the mess he started.

He was an actor that actually believe he could play the role of a president, the corporate power had him in his pocket from the time he was sworn in

Reagan is known as the president that gave America to be ruled by private interest.

In all honesty, I'm sort of split here. Part of me agrees with you, and part of me disagrees with you.

I'll agree that among those on the "right" side of the political spectrum have been guilty of pumping up the presidency of Reagan. I agree for the most part. He has been hailed as a savior, and people are quick to overlook the negative aspects of what he did. (1986 amnesty is a good example). In 1994 he even held the opinion that the public shouldn't have assault rifles. Don't get me wrong. Reagan wasn't a god, and I don't agree with everything he did.

As for Reagan handing over control and power to the corporations... debatable. Crony capitalism existed long before the 1980s. Whether or not unleashing the private sector was the final nail in the coffin is opinion based. It all depends on your point of view.

All of that having been said, I do agree that corporations have more influence in government than I'd like.

I never said Reagan was a "savior" , and I am confident that most admirers of Reagan do not view him as a savior.
I do think he was a great U.S. President for many reasons, but I won't bore you with the list.

Daedalus

i believe the point was that the ACA was sold to the american people as a cure-all, that would make it so EVERYONE could get health insurance....this clearly isn't the case..

it more or less boils down to "if it was what they said it would be, why couldn't she get insurance? why did she hafta die?"

Well, here's the way I look at the ACA: America gave the Democrats all the rope they could handle and they hung themselves with it. I mean, they had the House, the Senate and the Presidency. The great Healthcare Reform has been on the political table for two decades or more. And what did they do?

Played patty-cake with Big Insurance, Big Pharma, Big Medicine, sold out the American People (once again), had their main spokeszombie utter the DUMBEST words any politician has ever uttered since some idiot incorrectly corrected a kid at a spelling bee (And yes, if I'm being too coy I'm referring to Pelosi's "...just need to pass it so that you can find out what's in it." I know what she probably meant to say but Jeebus Ky-er-iss) ... and then the Administration botched the rollout of the actual plan in every frickin' way possible looking like the sheerest kind of probies ...

(See, there's plenty to nail these guys on without shrieking "COMMUNIST! DICTATOR!" LOL)

I don't have a party to belong to, anymore. I want the Truth and Common Sense Party ... where can I sign up for that one?

LOL!

I'm glad that humor came through. What I think is funny, isn't, sometimes.

reply to post by Daedalus


When are you running for "Dictator" ... you have my vote.

(And you might as well admit, at this stage of the game, it's going to take a despot to clean this mess up.)

(Seriously, that plan makes more sense than anything I've ever read.)

Gryphon66
reply to post by Daedalus

 

When are you running for "Dictator" ... you have my vote.

(And you might as well admit, at this stage of the game, it's going to take a despot to clean this mess up.)

(Seriously, that plan makes more sense than anything I've ever read.)

edit on 20Sun, 13 Apr 2014 20:01:49 -050014p082014466 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)

the sad, disgusting, and frightening part is that you might be right......

i mean, if you look at history, this is how the nazi think started in germany.....things were so completely f**ked over there, that they were DESPERATE for someone to fix it....hitler came along, said all the right things, made all the right promises, and he was in...and he appeared to be doing what he said he would at first, and then BAM "kill ze juden for aryan purity"..wait, what?

things are so terribly screwed in this country, people are getting desperate for someone to step up and fix it...

your joke about me running for "dictator" wasn't lost on me....because that's exactly what anyone who tries to fix this mess will be labeled.

spurgeonatorsrevenge

That is not true, the 81' - 82 recession was not worse than 08'. That is laughable, half the DOW did not disappear in less than a year and America was not losing 750,000 a month.

You can believe what you want, by my econ professor who holds a Ph.D would disagree with you.

spurgeonatorsrevenge
Nearly 35% of our current deficit of >18 Trillion was accrued during Reagan. But you guys still admire his conservatism?

Between 12/31/1981 and 12/31/1988 the U.S nation debt increased by:

$1,655,663,000,000 (www.skymachines.com...)

Our current debt according to the US Debt clock is roughly $17,577,172,000,000.

If 35% of that were because of Reagan, that would mean he would have had to raise the debt by $6,152,010,200,000.

17,577,172,000,000 * 0.35 = 6,152,010,200,000.

Not only that, but you don't seem to know the difference between a deficit and a debt. Why should I take you seriously when you can't even get the terms right?

spurgeonatorsrevenge
Reagan recovery is a bunch of horse$hit - Reagan single handedly gave birth to the modern nation debt by increasing US governmental expenditures by a 100% and more in many cases.

even the conservative Mises Institute confirms the phony hype surrounding Reagan's conservatism.

Again, false. The United States has held a debt since its founding. The reason the debt exploded under Reagan like no other president before was because of the military build up, seeming as many view the 1980s as the height of the cold war.

Secondly, you're quoting an opinion piece from an Australian source from 26 years ago. You do realize that American conservatism is different than Australian and European conservatism.... right?

HauntWok

All the things that Conservatives tried to tell us was going to happen under Obama. How many of these things happened?

Really? Do you live in a FEMA Camp?

I'll give you a little personal story, after Hurricane Charley, the town I lived in Punta Gorda Florida was pretty wiped out. My house was destroyed. I lived in a FEMA Camp for about 16 months. Far be it from a concentration camp that Conservatives often try and portray. It was actually pretty decent.

Gun owners, let me ask you a question. Do you still have your guns?

Really? You do? And what's the body count of the ATF members outside your house? Zero? Really? How did that happen? Maybe it's because "Da gubermint ain't comin after yer gunz"

Anyone have a government issued implant yet? Yea, I didn't think they did.

How's that Sharia Law workin out for Y'all? Oh there isn't Sharia Law?

Oh I'm so sorry to hear about Grandma, must be tough losing her to a death panel like that right? Oh what? Wait? No death panels?

So, how many reports of gay marriages destroying all that is good about this nation have there been? None? Weird!

Wonder if the ACA isn't just part of ALL THIS HYPE!

At this point it is quite evident that you either refuse to change your opinion, or (what I believe is more likely) you simply haven't read the responses people have written in the thread.

I almost wrote off your post off as satire. Perhaps I'm feeding a troll by responding, but screw it.

"Fema death camps, obama as the anti-christ, sharia law, death panels"? That isn't at all what mainstream conservatives believe at all. You are confusing Alex Jones fear mongering and religious fanaticism with real conservatism. But alas, I'm wasting my time because you probably won't even read this. Perhaps you're one of the drones that can't be converted.

reply to post by Daedalus


You know, not for nothing, maybe the answer is another honest to goodness Constitutional Convention ... let's throw all the cards in the air and see what kind of house WE can get them to fall into and how long it will last.

OR, maybe the answer is some kind of refactoring of the country ... not in some abrupt, mindless, "get off'n my land ya revenuers!" but a measured, reasonable movement toward dissolution, and amicable parting of the ways.

Now, were that to happen I for one think that China will take California, Russia will take Alaska, Canada will probably take New England and the Great Lakes, etc. within a few years and the former USA will basically be reduced to a Global Chessboard/ GMO Breadbasket ... either that or we'll end up nuking OURSELVES until we glow ... but what do I know, really?

What does anyone know?

UziXxX
Perhaps you're one of the drones that can't be converted.

I know you're not talking to me, and I don't mean to distract, but I have a small question that I promise I won't pursue the matter beyond your answer:

Why would you want to convert someone to your way of thinking? Logically, in problem-solving, many different approaches increase the probability that the correct (or perhaps "most efficient") solution will be found to a given question, yes? It seems that in modern American politics, we all want to reduce the perspectives down to one; this seems non-productive if not stagnant in the long-run, to me. Thanks if you choose to respond.

reply to post by UziXxX


Who says "Don't feed the trolls". I actually think its funny

Gryphon66

UziXxX
Perhaps you're one of the drones that can't be converted.

I know you're not talking to me, and I don't mean to distract, but I have a small question that I promise I won't pursue the matter beyond your answer:

Why would you want to convert someone to your way of thinking? Logically, in problem-solving, many different approaches increase the probability that the correct (or perhaps "most efficient") solution will be found to a given question, yes? It seems that in modern American politics, we all want to reduce the perspectives down to one; this seems non-productive if not stagnant in the long-run, to me. Thanks if you choose to respond.

You're right. "Convert" was probably the wrong word.

That having been said, I don't think he should "convert" his opinion or way of thinking to one identical to my own.

I agree with you for the most part. Conflicting points of view can often times create a better solution to a dynamic problem. What I really meant to say was that it is probable that he won't see the point I and others are trying to get him to see. And in all fairness, he is completely entitled to that and it is okay. I respect his opinion, and he is of course entitled to express it as much as he wants.

But I pose this question to you (And it isn't necessarily directed at the OP or his points of view- it is more of a philosophical question):

Can a problem be discussed between a group of people if there are those that refuse to acknowledge a problem exists? Going a bit deeper, is acknowledgement of said problem opinion based?

Lastly, I apologize if I have derailed the thread.

The point of the ACA was a start. It was a hard fought process. It wasn't perfect. Everyone involved knew it wasn't going to be perfect. But it had to pass. The reason that it had to pass was that something had to start somewhere. If left up to conservatives, nothing would ever get done.

The conservative ideal of health care coverage is. If you get sick, hopefully you have enough money yourself to cover the enormous costs of healthcare in America. Cause if you don't, your option is to die painfully.

Someone actually thought that was a good idea in this thread. Why do we have healthcare insurance to begin with? Why not pay doctors out of our own pockets?

This person obviously has never had a life threatening injury or something that required surgery before. Healthcare in America is freaking expensive. Without insurance, this kind of treatment will run you into bankruptcy.

Of course these same people who are against this are also against social security. You know, that thing that get's taken out of everyone's paycheck every week? These same people are against you ever collecting that money. They don't want you having YOUR money when you retire. Sure, for some, it's not too much of a problem, they have savings that they rely on. 401k's and such. For a great many of us, this is our retirement plan. Without it, when we can't work any longer, we would starve to death on the streets and die. But that's these people's plan.

These same people that are against any sort of universal health care coverage are the same people that want you if you don't earn enough to starve to death and die. They are brainwashed into thinking that if you don't earn enough, you aren't good enough. Their entire identity is based on earnings.

To these people your bank account is your worth. Forget if you work your ass off at a job they could never do 12 hours a day. You don't make that bank? You aren't worth scrap to these people. And they want you to die.

On this board there's a popular conspiracy theory that involves a thing called the New World Order. If you believe in this thing, then these people are their foot soldiers. For some reason they think that all the menial labor will happen automatically if all the poor people go away and die.

These people don't think that someone is going to have to bury all the bodies of the poor that starve to death under their ideology. Remember, to these people, if you don't make enough, you aren't good enough. So if you aren't pulling in the big bucks, you aren't worthy of living.

That's why they argue against things like insurance to begin with. Why pay a set amount each month, to insure that when you need a service it will be there? Why can't you just pay out of pocket for the service you need? Sure, everyone worthy has the money for cancer treatment out of their own pocket. Sure it costs hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars to save yourself from the slow painful death that is cancer. Why don't you have that money? Obviously to these people, if you don't you don't deserve to be treated for cancer.

ACA is class warfare people, and there's still a fight to be won. We as a society need to tell these insurance companies they can still make money while covering people at a reasonable price.

The markup for health care needs to come down. These things needs to be addressed, not by throwing away the idea of universal healthcare coverage. But by refining it, making sure that everyone in this nation has what they need to live a full long productive life therefore raising the GDP and bolstering the economy.

Not to conservatives though. Those poor people need to die the slow painful death their poverty demands of them. Screw those poor people. They deserve that death by virtue of being poor.

UziXxX

But I pose this question to you (And it isn't necessarily directed at the OP or his points of view- it is more of a philosophical question):

Can a problem be discussed between a group of people if there are those that refuse to acknowledge a problem exists? Going a bit deeper, is acknowledgement of said problem opinion based?

Lastly, I apologize if I have derailed the thread.

edit on 4/13/2014 by UziXxX because: (no reason given)

If we're derailing the thread, I guess they'll zap our posts, but I think there's a bit more lee-way in the "Mud-Pit"

To answer your question, first of all, I think we'd all have to agree to have a discussion rather than merely blurting talking points at each other, which, sadly, is what most political dialogue has devolved to.

Second, yes, of course, all members of the group would have to acknowledge the existence of the problem at least, if not the cause of the problem, as a starting place. My fundamental issue with politics is that we aren't solving problems anymore; we're creating them.

Third, we really all need to reeducate ourselves on the differences between opinion and fact and truth, because they are three very different things. After we teach kids to read and write (preferably in more than one language) and use arithmetic and basic logic, we need to teach them to think critically. Screw algebra and geography and biology; once they can think they can pick that up on their own on the internet.

But (and your mileage may vary on this, Uzi) I find that my thought is becoming just as corrupted by the ever-present over-emotionalism and partisanism and irrationalism in our culture today ... it's almost like a mental virus.

In fact, it's almost EXACTLY like that ... but that's a musing for another day.

I ramble; hopefully that answers your question. Best.

Gryphon66
You know, not for nothing, maybe the answer is another honest to goodness Constitutional Convention ... let's throw all the cards in the air and see what kind of house WE can get them to fall into and how long it will last.

unless we were to rise up, and FIRE every single congressman, senator, representative..EVERYONE at the federal level, a constitutional convention would do nothing.....with the gaggle of criminals we have in the district of criminals right now, a constitutional convention would be used to completely decimate the rights of the average citizen, and forever destroy, bury, and erase from memory, what we once were..

the current state of american politics and government reminds me of this:



call him what you will, but cohen nailed it...

either that or we'll end up nuking OURSELVES until we glow ... but what do I know, really?

i'm not sure why, but that made me laugh.....a lot...


also, i'm not at all in favor of balkanizing the U.S. the answer is not to split up, and all go our separate ways...the answer is to fix this broken system, and put the federal government back in it's place, doing the job it was intended to do..

HauntWok
The point of the ACA was a start. It was a hard fought process. It wasn't perfect. Everyone involved knew it wasn't going to be perfect. But it had to pass. The reason that it had to pass was that something had to start somewhere. If left up to conservatives, nothing would ever get done.

I've admired a lot of what you've said lately HW. You're a lot more patient than I am. And I probably didn't disagree with you about the ACA until I actually saw what it was ... let's put the cards on the table for a minute, I know the "fascists" are still watching but they're not going to listen to us anyway ... the ACA is an ALBATROSS. We had the Congress and the White House and two decades of impetus to get something done and THIS was the best we could do? May Random Chance help us if it is.

The conservative ideal of health care coverage is. If you get sick, hopefully you have enough money yourself to cover the enormous costs of healthcare in America. Cause if you don't, your option is to die painfully.

Someone actually thought that was a good idea in this thread. Why do we have healthcare insurance to begin with? Why not pay doctors out of our own pockets?

Some conservatives, yes, but did you read Daedalus' other post? He made an excellent suggestion that isn't too far away from what I (or I assume you) would sign off on. Democrats are in bed with the insurance companies just as much as the Republicans are Havoc ... or we would have had a better deal out of this, right?

This person obviously has never had a life threatening injury or something that required surgery before. Healthcare in America is freaking expensive. Without insurance, this kind of treatment will run you into bankruptcy.

Of course these same people who are against this are also against social security. You know, that thing that get's taken out of everyone's paycheck every week? These same people are against you ever collecting that money. They don't want you having YOUR money when you retire. Sure, for some, it's not too much of a problem, they have savings that they rely on. 401k's and such. For a great many of us, this is our retirement plan. Without it, when we can't work any longer, we would starve to death on the streets and die. But that's these people's plan.

THEY are not all the same. You're painting THEM with the same brush they paint us with. Are you a Socialist, Haunt? A Communist? A Kenyan-loving Sycophant? No ... neither am I. (Well, maybe a little "s" socialist, sometimes)

Etc. etc. etc.

Read some of the posts in the thread again. Daedalus and Uzi. Yeah, they can spew the same right wing stuff as we can left wing.

But just remember *cue new age music* ... it takes two wings to fly ... *retches*

holy f**king s**t......if you're going to attack, ridicule, call me names, and "put words in my mouth" at least have the balls to come right out and say my name, you jerk...

HauntWok
The point of the ACA was a start. It was a hard fought process. It wasn't perfect. Everyone involved knew it wasn't going to be perfect. But it had to pass. The reason that it had to pass was that something had to start somewhere. If left up to conservatives, nothing would ever get done.

define conservatives.

also, it wasn't designed to be "a start"..it's entire purpose is to take money from us, and give it to the companies that wrote the bill. it didn't "have to" pass...

The conservative ideal of health care coverage is. If you get sick, hopefully you have enough money yourself to cover the enormous costs of healthcare in America. Cause if you don't, your option is to die painfully.

again, define "conservative"

where i come from, we call people who think like that "assholes"

the cost of medical services in this country is only so high BECAUSE of HMOs, and unregulated, out of control drug companies, and device manufacturers who can get away with charging 10 dollars for a pill in a third-world country, and charging a hundred, or a thousand, for that same pill in america, because well "it's america, they can afford it"

if it weren't for them, things would actually BE affordable....imagine that...

Someone actually thought that was a good idea in this thread. Why do we have healthcare insurance to begin with? Why not pay doctors out of our own pockets?

it's what i used to do....i'd see my doctor, and pay him for his services....thankfully, i don't need to see him often, so it's not a huge financial burden.

This person obviously has never had a life threatening injury or something that required surgery before. Healthcare in America is freaking expensive. Without insurance, this kind of treatment will run you into bankruptcy.

you know what they say about assumptions, right?

don't presume to know me, or the circumstances of my life, got it?

and i explained WHY medical services in this country are so expensive....

Of course these same people who are against this are also against social security. You know, that thing that get's taken out of everyone's paycheck every week? These same people are against you ever collecting that money. They don't want you having YOUR money when you retire. Sure, for some, it's not too much of a problem, they have savings that they rely on. 401k's and such. For a great many of us, this is our retirement plan. Without it, when we can't work any longer, we would starve to death on the streets and die. But that's these people's plan.

wow....you actually believe that?

lemme tell you, people are against social security because it's a government ponzi scheme....the SS-trust fund is bankrupt...the federal government looted it until there was nothing left....when you trust the federal government to manage your money, you're asking for trouble, because they'll steal it, and lie to you about it every time.

why shouldn't people take responsibility for their future affairs? why not set up your OWN private savings for later? why expect the government to provide for you when you retire? is personal responsibility really such a foreign concept?

it's not as if the government said "ok, if you want, you suckers, i mean fine citizens can send us money, and we'll hold it for you, and when you're old, we'll give it back"..no they said "we're just gonna take your money, whether you want us to or not, and we promise to give it back later"....it's an intrest-free loan, that they can't pay back. part of the national debt is social security obligations...that money is supposed to come out of the trust fund, but since it's empty, it's coming from the tons of money they're printing out of thin air...

These same people that are against any sort of universal health care coverage are the same people that want you if you don't earn enough to starve to death and die. They are brainwashed into thinking that if you don't earn enough, you aren't good enough. Their entire identity is based on earnings.

i'm not against universal health care coverage.....i actually talked about a plan that would give every citizen access to medical services...i'm not against the idea....i'm against the ACA, because IT IS NOT anything like universal medical services....it's a forced purchase of overpriced, unnecessary crap..

so i'm rich now?

lemme tell you something, sunshine....i unemployed....i STILL can't find a goddamn job...i have no income, no savings, nothing..i'm stuck living with my parents, who cover my essentials, and a place to sleep...

so you can take that "entire identity is based on earnings" crap, and shove it.....you couldn't be more wrong...

To these people your bank account is your worth. Forget if you work your ass off at a job they could never do 12 hours a day. You don't make that bank? You aren't worth scrap to these people. And they want you to die.

more assumptions....try doing some of the jobs i've held....i doubt you'd be able to stand it for long...

i used to work 10-20 hours a day, busting my ass for lousy pay...did it for years, and i have jack s**t to show for it....i hate namecalling, but you are really goddamn stupid.

On this board there's a popular conspiracy theory that involves a thing called the New World Order. If you believe in this thing, then these people are their foot soldiers. For some reason they think that all the menial labor will happen automatically if all the poor people go away and die.

These people don't think that someone is going to have to bury all the bodies of the poor that starve to death under their ideology. Remember, to these people, if you don't make enough, you aren't good enough. So if you aren't pulling in the big bucks, you aren't worthy of living.

wow, what a load of crap.....

this is some of the most dangerously idiotic garbage i've ever read.

That's why they argue against things like insurance to begin with. Why pay a set amount each month, to insure that when you need a service it will be there? Why can't you just pay out of pocket for the service you need? Sure, everyone worthy has the money for cancer treatment out of their own pocket. Sure it costs hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars to save yourself from the slow painful death that is cancer. Why don't you have that money? Obviously to these people, if you don't you don't deserve to be treated for cancer.

you obviously ignored EVERYTHING i've said in this thread, and all you want to do is call people names, and continue to say the same uninformed crap over and over....accusations, lies, baseless assertions, hyberbole....do you ever get tired of trolling?

ACA is class warfare people, and there's still a fight to be won. We as a society need to tell these insurance companies they can still make money while covering people at a reasonable price.

no, the ACA is a blank check to the insurance companies, and the federal government, made out in the name of the american people....HMOs do not need to exist....there is a much simpler way to provide access to medical services to the people.

i mean, seriously, why do you have such a hardon for the insurance companies?

The markup for health care needs to come down. These things needs to be addressed, not by throwing away the idea of universal healthcare coverage. But by refining it, making sure that everyone in this nation has what they need to live a full long productive life therefore raising the GDP and bolstering the economy.

the only people throwing out the idea of "universal healthcare", are the people who support the ACA...the ACA is nothing even remotely RESEMBLING "universal healthcare".....

Not to conservatives though. Those poor people need to die the slow painful death their poverty demands of them. Screw those poor people. They deserve that death by virtue of being poor.

what the hell is wrong with you?

throughout this ignorant diatribe, there is the constant reinforcement of the NEED for more government, the NEED for the government to be everything to everyone, for them to feed, clothe, house, entertain, care for, and tend to their every need.....this is NOT what the federal government is for....

you seem to believe that we should thoroughly abdicate any sense of responsibility for ourselves, and simply allow government to manage the totality of our every affair, in all aspects of our lives.....this is not what the federal government is for...

your views disgust me, your words disgust me, your assumptions, accusations, baseless assertions, and libelous nature disgust me....i don't know what manner of life led you to be so completely misinformed, but you ought to be ashamed of yourself for saying such vile things about people you know nothing about...

shame on you.

reply to post by Gryphon66

We had the Congress and the White House and two decades of impetus to get something done and THIS was the best we could do? May Random Chance help us if it is.

Yea, sadly yes it is, for the moment. It was the best that we could hope for. Why? Because of the health care lobby. It should have been a lot better, but thanks to the health care lobby, we got this.

But it's a start. Believe me when I say that the things that are good in life are worth fighting for. I spent years as a homeless man, fighting to get my son back. The state of Florida made me jump through hoops you wouldn't believe, including three different agencies randomly warrantlessly inspecting my home when I did get one. When all was said and done, I did get my son back. But still, do I get child support from his mother? Oh hell no. The state of Florida won't even pursue a case against her.

Believe me, when I say things that are good are worth fighting for. Even if it's jacked up, things can be good.

Democrats are in bed with the insurance companies just as much as the Republicans are Havoc ... or we would have had a better deal out of this, right?

Oh yes they are, they most definitely are. The health care lobby was an even bigger obstacle than the right wing was. Unfortunately, it was either deal with the health care lobby or nothing. But sometimes you got to get your foot in the door.

THEY are not all the same. You're painting THEM with the same brush they paint us with. Are you a Socialist

That's the thing about this fight. Our opponents in this fight aren't going to play by a fair playbook. The few that make the rest of conservatism look bad aren't out to be fair. They aren't going to be reasonable, they aren't going to be rational. They are going to play dirty. They are going to play harsh. They are going to use dirty tricks and tactics that undermine everything that this country is founded upon just to win their point.

Fight a state to get custody of a child. You will learn that it has absolutely nothing to do with the welfare of the child, and everything to do with politics. Same here, this has nothing to do with universal heath care. It has everything to do with those that have money and those who don't and those who have money are out to do everything they can to make damn sure they keep their money. Even go so far as to brainwash those that don't have money to fight for them.

The health care lobby hates the ACA, and the reason is, it's a crack in the armor. In time, if we all are willing to fight for it, it will turn out to be universal health care for every American. They do not want this. And this is why they send their parrots spouting FOX News propaganda out into the world. It's because it is a chink in the healthcare industry's armor. They know it.

This fight is going to get worse. And with it, we are going to see some of the worst that these FOX News parrot's have to offer. They are going to parade examples of the worst that the ACA has to offer out. They want this to die, because if it dies the healthcare industry wins. These guys fighting against it are just pawns. These people that call me a shill, or a troll, are just the cannon fodder the insurance companies are using to undermine the idea.

America has started on an uphill battle here. There's a lot of bull snip on both sides to wade through, a lot of hoops to jump through, a tough fight ahead. These conservatives don't understand the end game, because to be conservative is to be near sighted. By definition, to keep things the same. They want the status quo, they want only the well to do to not die a painfull death.

They have been programmed to worship what is called The New World Order. (if you believe in such a conspiracy) Too big to fail, we must go to war because they have WMD's, Crimea is the new cold war. These are the things these people are being brainwashed on a daily basis to believe. Hell, these people actually think our soldiers fight for our freedoms somehow. And if we don't support our all freaking volunteer military, then somehow we aren't patriotic and are shunned.

But, keep in mind, I'm the shill, and a troll. I think for myself, and don't let things like propaganda and media influence regulate how I think. I'm a shill, and a troll. I don't believe that the president was born in Kenya. But I'm the shill, and a troll. I don't believe that everyone should be constantly armed to the teeth, but I'm the shill and a troll. I believe that maybe we as a society should help the poor, but again, I'm a shill, and a troll.

I believe that we shouldn't have a permanent army because of what is prescribed in the United States Constitution, but again, I'm a shill, and a troll.

I think that people who want firearms should join up with the reserves and the national guard because of what it says in the United States Constitution, but I'm a shill, and a troll.

I believe that the government has the constitutional duty to promote the general welfare of the nation, and part of that is through a universal health care plan, but I'm a shill, and a troll.

Should I give these people any leeway? Why? Why should I treat them any differently than they treat me? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you right? By their example that is what they want others to do unto them. So I guess I am justified by their example.

HauntWok

America has started on an uphill battle here. There's a lot of bull snip on both sides to wade through, a lot of hoops to jump through, a tough fight ahead. These conservatives don't understand the end game, because to be conservative is to be near sighted. By definition, to keep things the same. They want the status quo, they want only the well to do to not die a painfull death.

I think liberals are the ones that are nearsighted. Most of their ideas are ungodly shallow and only carry merit on the fact that they sound good on the surface. Nothing proves this better than Nancy Pelosi saying, "We need to pass this to know what's in it." in regards to the ACA:

www.youtube.com...

So basically "vote for this because it sounds good".

How much more f***** irresponsible can you get? Conservatives are near sighted? You passed a bill that no one read because it sounded good, and you have the balls to call us nearsighted? You've got some serious balls. Not even the president read it, that's why he said "If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor". It's because he didn't know.

Anyone who said they read the bill is a liar. It's over 20,000 pages and is written in legalese. Secondly, it is filled with references to other legislation, which you then must go and read for context.

HauntWok
I think for myself, and don't let things like propaganda and media influence regulate how I think.

That's such a load. You repeat everything Barack Obama and Jay Carney say. You are willing to let Barack Obama walk you right off a cliff pal. All he needs to do is put the word out through CNN or MSNBC.

HauntWok
I'm a shill, and a troll. I don't believe that the president was born in Kenya.

See, this is what I'm talking about. I know for a fact you don't think for yourself, otherwise you would realize that the folks that think Obama is actually from Kenya are a small minority that don't believe he was legitimately elected president. We call you a troll because you spew these satiric statements, but what makes it even funnier is that you believe this to be the general consensus of every conservative.

HauntWok
I believe that maybe we as a society should help the poor,

The right also believes in helping the poor. Except we do it in ways that are sustainable and actually thought through. A liberal sees a homeless man and says, "This is horrible. How can we help him?" A conservative looks at that same man and says, "How can we fix this?". We think on a deeper level to get to the root of the problem. Conservatism is an intellectual pursuit. We have hearts, but we don't pass feel good legislation based on whats in our heart. We think before we act.

HauntWok
I believe that the government has the constitutional duty to promote the general welfare of the nation, and part of that is through a universal health care plan, but I'm a shill, and a troll.

Stop kidding yourself. You don't believe in the constitution. You don't even know whats in it. The favorite liberal argument is to attribute every federal program with the general welfare clause. Let me ask you something. If the government can establish anything it wants to, as long as promotes the general welfare, why would the framers have bothered writing the rest of the constitution? You see, you must apply critical thinking skills (Which you clearly lack, no offense) to understand that the general welfare clause doesn't give ultimate authority. There are limits placed on government after that clause.

HauntWok
Why should I treat them any differently than they treat me? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you right? By their example that is what they want others to do unto them. So I guess I am justified by their example.

You're right. I always try to be polite to people and keep the high ground, but because we're in the mud pit, let's get dirty.

You judge people you don't even know, slandering their ideology. But as a liberal, don't you preach tolerance of others? But what have you done here except judge everyone that has called themselves a conservative? You insult our intelligence by labeling us with stereotypes. Doesn't that make you a hypocrite?

Hypocrisy: noun
1.
the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.

You claim to be a compassionate liberal person, yet you support Barack Obama? One of the most fiscally irresponsible presidents to ever become POTUS? Liberals love to say that the recession of 2007 was caused by deregulation of the banks, which lead them to commit fraud and mismanage money. Barack Obama is doing the same thing. Under this president, we have seen spending on a level never seen before. The deficits have been the highest in world history. Do you not understand that this is unsustainable? That these actions will have very real and severe consequences? You claim to be compassionate.. what a joke. If you were two drops compassionate, you would be speaking out about this administration. You would be enraged that this spending is going to create an economic collapse so large, that your children and grand children are going to suffer more than you can comprehend.

And another thing pal:

You don't know me, or anyone else in this thread. I was born into a family that has jack #. I've been poor my entire life. I'm seeking higher education, and am currently a mechanical engineering student at a university, going to school strictly on loans and grants. So don't you dare go around saying that every conservative is some wealthy pretentious f*** who thumbs their nose at everyone.

I'm only 20 years old, but I've already learned some important life lessons. I may be young but I can tell you that there are two types of poor people:

There are poor people who complain, mope around, and hold out their hand for free government cheese. These people never get anywhere in life because they are resentful and feel that society owes them a living. Let me tell you, society doesn't owe you #.

And then there is the other type of poor people. I fit into this category. These people hate being poor so much, that they use it as motivation to bust their balls at every opportunity to try and get ahead in life.

We owe out children and grandchildren the opportunity for freedom in this country. Freedom is never guaranteed to anyone. It is always a generation away from being dissolved. As the federal government grows bigger and bigger, it encroaches further and further onto every American's guaranteed rights. This massive spending is going to ensure a collapse in the next 50 years. It is so bad, that all of these republicans, democrats (Obama especially) should be thrown in prison for child abuse.

You slam conservatism, yet an element of conservatism is having personal responsibility. If you can't afford to feed your family, you go out and shovel # for 15 hours if you have to. People make fun of bootstraps, but honestly that's why society has gone down the tubes in the past 25 years or so. We have this whole young generation spawned from white bourgeois liberals who haven't prepared their children for life. For some reason these selfish little pricks feel that they are owed something. Do me a favor and quit ruining my country.

rickynews

SearchLightsInc
Ive noticed a lot of hatred on ATS in regards to Obamacare, A lot of those individuals sound like they've got their head's stuck up their asses. I cant believe that you guys WANT private healthcare to rule freely. Its a crazy idea!

I for one, like knowing i can visit a doctor/hospital, receive medical treatment without ever worrying about the cost. The NHS was set up to help those that "Cant pull their own weight"

Oh what an imperfect system we seem to have

The U.S. Healthcare and Medical Industry is the finest in the world, without exception. That is why many world leaders come to the U.S. for serious conditions to be treated.

While that statment is true, it is only true for those that can afford to pay for the finest treatment, hence why the private system is flawed.

The Health Insurance Industry, although imperfect, is (was) highly competitive, but arguably could use reforms in the best interests of the people and patients.

So, it was working, then the corporate overlords got greedy but you still dont want government involved? So your choice is to live with the disease of corporate greed (and pay extortionately for it) or let the government try and do something about it... Hmmm.

The Governemnt and the ACA , by essentially taking control over both industries, is moving directly towards the Socialization of Medecine, and there are many reasons why this is dangerous,

Dangerous is a subjective word.

not the least of which is the Government making policy and decisions for the Patients, or that directly affect the approved or unapproved treatments of the Patient, instead of the Doctors and Patients making the decisions for the best and most effective treatments.

On paper it sounds scary doesn't it?

So to Recap:

- America has one of the best healthcare systems in the world - But you have to be rich to access the best of the best treatment/facilities.

- Government involvement would make healthcare more accessible to the people of america, but limit how and where they treated, despite most of them not being able to access the top-notch medical care anyway.

I think the people of america need to think more logically about their healthcare system. Meanwhile, the NHS is consistently under threat from being privatized

reply to post by SearchLightsInc


Healthcare reform is one thing, and a Government overhaul and control of the Healthcare Industry is quite another.

rickynews
reply to post by SearchLightsInc

 

Healthcare reform is one thing, and a Government overhaul and control of the Healthcare Industry is quite another.

Are you kidding with this kind of thing? If anything the Healthcare Industry is in control of Government ...

Seriously, what the heck are you talking about? Real world examples and not just buzz-words or talking points.