Demonic forces and horror movies/death metal.

@eNumbra....
No, but all of this reinforces the idea that you seem to think there is a such thing as "normal" when it comes to the personality, art, creativity... etc. Even if they aren't "normal" minds, it would only prove that they're "abnormal" minds.

most people would find repulsive and grotesque the examples I posted above. The fact that a small minority of musicians/visual artists find it appealing suggests they aren't like other people who find it revolting.

Nothing in this thread, nothing you have provided, nor I suspect you will ever provide will prove:
1: The existence of "other worldly" beings"
2: That these beings are "evil"
3: That these beings are influencing certain artists in the death metal scene.

This thread was originally posted in the religion forum. It was intended for an audience that accepts the existence of demonic forces...but a mod moved it here.

You refuse to believe that human minds are capable of this imagery on their own ......

Theists understand that demonic forces can influence people. The premise of the thread as intended for the religion forum was that these artists are under demonic influence.

I must ask though, if human beings are incapable of "extreme" imagery such as this, would they also not be incapable of "extreme" good imagery? Where is the line between influenced and uninfluenced and who has seemingly made you the definitive expert on the line between the grotesque and the "only slightly less so grotesque that is wasn't influenced by demons"?

the topic of the op was extreme horror/death metal and the gore/death/perversion obsession that manifest in their ''creative expression''.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

This is simply NOT the work of normal minds. It reinforces my earlier statement that there are other worldly demonic forces working on the creative imaginations of artists.

Again you have reinforced nothing. The only thing you have reinforced is that it is your assumption that this is taking place without actually fully understanding the process behind death metal.

Heavy metal author Gavin Baddeley also stated there does seem to be a connection between "how acquainted one is with their own mortality" and "how much they crave images of death and violence" via the media.[48] Additionally, contributing artists to the genre often defend death metal as little more than an extreme form of art and entertainment, similar to horror films in the motion picture industry

en.wikipedia.org...

If you want to get into the type of music that could be influenced by something like this I suggest Black Metal would be where to start not Death Metal.

sk0rpi0n

most people would find repulsive and grotesque the examples I posted above. The fact that a small minority of musicians/visual artists find it appealing suggests they aren't like other people who find it revolting.

So then these "Demonic" forces are not acting on the audiences they appeal to as well?
There is a perversity already embedded in the human mind, you can see it every time commuters rubber-neck past the scene of an automobile accident. People want to look, they need to look: their reasons tend to vary, are they alright? Wow, look at that damage? Mommy, is that man sleeping?

People differ, people vary; even in to the extremes. Some people would never skydive, some would never climb a mountain, some don't care for fancy cuisine, some can't stand to be alone, some can't stand to be in a crowd. To blame the extreme end of humanity's morose curiosity on demons would be to blame everything on the work of spooks and spectres.

This thread was originally posted in the religion forum. It was intended for an audience that accepts the existence of demonic forces...but a mod moved it here.

Not everyone on the religion board accepts the existence of "demonic forces"; that's the great part about humanity, that we're so wildly different one person to the next, that some people can sit at their computer screen and wonder if people are possessed by demons. But if you intended this topic for people who believed in such entities and forces, you didn't actually want a discussion on the topic then, you wanted a bunch of people who agree with you to back up your theory.

Theists understand that demonic forces can influence people. The premise of the thread as intended for the religion forum was that these artists are under demonic influence.

Merriam-Webster
the·ism noun ˈthē-ˌi-zəm :
the belief that God exists or that many gods exist
Full Definition of THEISM :
belief in the existence of a god or gods; specifically : belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world

Not all theists believe in demons, but here we all are now, regardless of belief asking you to further define your theories.

the topic of the op was extreme horror/death metal and the gore/death/perversion obsession that manifest in their ''creative expression''.

But who are you to define it as extreme? or as an obsession? Why is your measuring stick "the right one"? When the news media talks about the violence in the middle east, cartel be-headings in Central America; why do the actual acts and stories relating the actual acts get a pass on demonic influence while the parody of the human condition not?


Look at the comedians who practice in the most perverse of humor; are they too influence by demonic forces? Or do demonic forces only dabble in food coloring and cornstarch? If one extreme is the work of something supernatural then all others must be as well.

tsurfer2000h
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

This is simply NOT the work of normal minds. It reinforces my earlier statement that there are other worldly demonic forces working on the creative imaginations of artists.

Again you have reinforced nothing. The only thing you have reinforced is that it is your assumption that this is taking place without actually fully understanding the process behind death metal.

Heavy metal author Gavin Baddeley also stated there does seem to be a connection between "how acquainted one is with their own mortality" and "how much they crave images of death and violence" via the media.[48] Additionally, contributing artists to the genre often defend death metal as little more than an extreme form of art and entertainment, similar to horror films in the motion picture industry

en.wikipedia.org...

If you want to get into the type of music that could be influenced by something like this I suggest Black Metal would be where to start not Death Metal.

so now black metal musicians "could be influenced by something"? while death metal is immune from "being influenced by something"?

you take genres way to rigid.

what about "blackened death"?
what about bands that are considered death metal but are using lyrics and visual style that is more like black metal?
what about the bands that change their styles in career or are of mixed style?

are you serious?
you got so much worked up about death metal only to say that black metal is a type of music that could be influenced by something?

do you realize (as I mentioned more than once) that this not talk about any specific style...

and please don't try to generalize genres.

reply to post by demus

so now black metal musicians "could be influenced by something"? while death metal is immune from "being influenced by something"?

If you look at the origins of both and the ideology that they have for the music you will see why I posted that.

do you realize (as I mentioned more than once) that this not talk about any specific style...

And you obviously didn't pay attention to this from the OP.

The bottom of the first post on this page...

the topic of the op was extreme horror/death metal and the gore/death/perversion obsession that manifest in their ''creative expression''.

So yes it is.

tsurfer2000h
reply to post by demus

 

so now black metal musicians "could be influenced by something"? while death metal is immune from "being influenced by something"?

If you look at the origins of both and the ideology that they have for the music you will see why I posted that.

do you realize (as I mentioned more than once) that this not talk about any specific style...

And you obviously didn't pay attention to this from the OP.

The bottom of the first post on this page...

the topic of the op was extreme horror/death metal and the gore/death/perversion obsession that manifest in their ''creative expression''.

So yes it is.

so every death metal band share same ideology for their music? NOT
every black metal band share same ideology for their music? NOT

death metal has different meaning to different people but even if he meant exactly what is considered definition of death metal it still doesn't mean this is a topic about specific genre.
you said yourself that there could be something in black metal.

so, we are already getting somewhere.

this is not the topic about death metal only.

demus

tsurfer2000h
reply to post by demus

 

so now black metal musicians "could be influenced by something"? while death metal is immune from "being influenced by something"?

If you look at the origins of both and the ideology that they have for the music you will see why I posted that.

do you realize (as I mentioned more than once) that this not talk about any specific style...

And you obviously didn't pay attention to this from the OP.

The bottom of the first post on this page...

the topic of the op was extreme horror/death metal and the gore/death/perversion obsession that manifest in their ''creative expression''.

So yes it is.

so every death metal band share same ideology for their music? NOT
every black metal band share same ideology for their music? NOT

death metal has different meaning to different people but even if he meant exactly what is considered definition of death metal it still doesn't mean this is a topic about specific genre.
you said yourself that there could be something in black metal.

so, we are already getting somewhere.

this is not the topic about death metal only.

This thread is a no win. The OP continually repeats that this thread is about "extreme death metal" anytime someone makes a point about a band that does not fit that defintition. So when people try to stay on point you come in and state that this topic in not about death metal only.

Either way this is the answer..... Demonic forces are not proven to exist. Without any proof your assumption has no validity. In the face of these facts the answer to your question is No, there aren't any demonic forces guiding the minds of the people who create "extreme" death metal / horror movies.

tsurfer2000h
reply to post by demus

 

so now black metal musicians "could be influenced by something"? while death metal is immune from "being influenced by something"?

If you look at the origins of both and the ideology that they have for the music you will see why I posted that.

do you realize (as I mentioned more than once) that this not talk about any specific style...

And you obviously didn't pay attention to this from the OP.

The bottom of the first post on this page...

the topic of the op was extreme horror/death metal and the gore/death/perversion obsession that manifest in their ''creative expression''.

So yes it is.

It's hard to keep track of what genre we are allowed to use to make a point because when we stick to Death Metal generally, the bands that have been mentioned (Slayer, Sepultura etc..) are not "extreme" enough and are not suitable for discussion yet the OP will then throw out some stuff from Mayhem which is Black Metal while at the same time telling us the discussion is only for "extreme" death metal. It's all very confusing..

Gargamel

demus

tsurfer2000h
reply to post by demus

 

so now black metal musicians "could be influenced by something"? while death metal is immune from "being influenced by something"?

If you look at the origins of both and the ideology that they have for the music you will see why I posted that.

do you realize (as I mentioned more than once) that this not talk about any specific style...

And you obviously didn't pay attention to this from the OP.

The bottom of the first post on this page...

the topic of the op was extreme horror/death metal and the gore/death/perversion obsession that manifest in their ''creative expression''.

So yes it is.

so every death metal band share same ideology for their music? NOT
every black metal band share same ideology for their music? NOT

death metal has different meaning to different people but even if he meant exactly what is considered definition of death metal it still doesn't mean this is a topic about specific genre.
you said yourself that there could be something in black metal.

so, we are already getting somewhere.

this is not the topic about death metal only.

This thread is a no win. The OP continually repeats that this thread is about "extreme death metal" anytime someone makes a point about a band that does not fit that defintition. So when people try to stay on point you come in and state that this topic in not about death metal only.

Either way this is the answer..... Demonic forces are not proven to exist. Without any proof your assumption has no validity. In the face of these facts the answer to your question is No, there aren't any demonic forces guiding the minds of the people who create "extreme" death metal / horror movies.

what he said in his first sentence in the opening post:

I believe demonic forces influence the minds behind extreme ''entertainment'', such as horror/gore movies, death metal etc.

so yes, the topic is not about death metal only.
he even mentions that he doesn't mean all death metal bands.

demonic forces are not proven to exist... that is true. is there any proof that demonic forces do not exist?

and you answered to the wrong guy, I don't claim that "demonic forces guide the minds..."

I am just discussing the possibilities.

what kind of experience you have with extreme music/movies and other extreme entertainment, care to share?

After many, many years of being involved in the metal genre.. I think I have to agree with ya OP.

Its interesting though, because the genre seems to go to further "extremes" in almost every aspect. I tend to prefer thought-provoking lyrics, and I find it is more prevalent in metal (and its millions of sub-genres) than many others. In the other direction, I find it can be significantly more violent and even "evil" than many others.

That said, I have my doubts about "outside" influence being needed at all. I do believe true evil exists in some context, but I think it could be sourced in human beings rather than an outside entity. It almost seems like a scapegoat to escape some personal responsibility. There is definitely a chance that "otherworldly" beings exist as well, I just dont feel they are necessary for humans to display evil, or be the source of their own evil.

Regardless of where the "source" of evil is located, I do think it is on full display in some metal bands and at a higher percentage than many (if not all) other genres. This might be explained through the concept that metal takes everything to extremes, and can be perceived by some to be evil in and of itself. So, it is all much more blatant and honest as a genre, but popular perception (and its counter culture) can be reflected proportionally.

I think that counter culture reaction also applies to things like horror movies. It can draw a certain type of person that wishes to express themselves through that specific media. If someone who has "evil" thoughts wishes to express themselves through film, they are likely to do so through a genre that includes dark imagery, violence, etc. There is also probably a distinct difference between someone who has "evil" thoughts and expresses them, and a truly evil person though. I think actions say more than words ever could in that respect.

reply to post by Gargamel


the discusion is not about music genres, especially since music genres are not rigidly define.

I have already said I don't want to discuss genres on this topic.

about the bands:

Slayer - trash metal
Sepultura - trash metal, death metal etc.

and I also think you may have confused me with the OP.

demus

Gargamel

demus

tsurfer2000h
reply to post by demus

 

so now black metal musicians "could be influenced by something"? while death metal is immune from "being influenced by something"?

If you look at the origins of both and the ideology that they have for the music you will see why I posted that.

do you realize (as I mentioned more than once) that this not talk about any specific style...

And you obviously didn't pay attention to this from the OP.

The bottom of the first post on this page...

the topic of the op was extreme horror/death metal and the gore/death/perversion obsession that manifest in their ''creative expression''.

So yes it is.

so every death metal band share same ideology for their music? NOT
every black metal band share same ideology for their music? NOT

death metal has different meaning to different people but even if he meant exactly what is considered definition of death metal it still doesn't mean this is a topic about specific genre.
you said yourself that there could be something in black metal.

so, we are already getting somewhere.

this is not the topic about death metal only.

This thread is a no win. The OP continually repeats that this thread is about "extreme death metal" anytime someone makes a point about a band that does not fit that defintition. So when people try to stay on point you come in and state that this topic in not about death metal only.

Either way this is the answer..... Demonic forces are not proven to exist. Without any proof your assumption has no validity. In the face of these facts the answer to your question is No, there aren't any demonic forces guiding the minds of the people who create "extreme" death metal / horror movies.

what he said in his first sentence in the opening post:

I believe demonic forces influence the minds behind extreme ''entertainment'', such as horror/gore movies, death metal etc.

so yes, the topic is not about death metal only.
he even mentions that he doesn't mean all death metal bands.

demonic forces are not proven to exist... that is true. is there any proof that demonic forces do not exist?

and you answered to the wrong guy, I don't claim that "demonic forces guide the minds..."

I am just discussing the possibilities.

what kind of experience you have with extreme music/movies and other extreme entertainment, care to share?

Well I've been a metal fan for close to 30 years and I also enjoy a very large collection of horror movies. One of my favorite concerts was the GWAR "Scumdogs of the Universe" tour. It's not death metal but I came away from that show covered in fake blood ,guts etc... it was awesome. (RIP Dave Brockie)

To me it's all about shock value which turns into bands having to go further than the last guy to show that they are more hardcore. All these bands are just trying to one up each other and that's how it gets to the level we are now discussing.

reply to post by demus


My apologies. I realize you are not the OP. That last post was a general observation for the thread as a whole. I'm not the greatest at forum etiquette.
I do however agree that Slayer and Sepultura do not really belong in the death Metal genre. To me they will always be thrash/speed metal.

Gargamel

demus

Gargamel

demus

tsurfer2000h
reply to post by demus

 

so now black metal musicians "could be influenced by something"? while death metal is immune from "being influenced by something"?

If you look at the origins of both and the ideology that they have for the music you will see why I posted that.

do you realize (as I mentioned more than once) that this not talk about any specific style...

And you obviously didn't pay attention to this from the OP.

The bottom of the first post on this page...

the topic of the op was extreme horror/death metal and the gore/death/perversion obsession that manifest in their ''creative expression''.

So yes it is.

so every death metal band share same ideology for their music? NOT
every black metal band share same ideology for their music? NOT

death metal has different meaning to different people but even if he meant exactly what is considered definition of death metal it still doesn't mean this is a topic about specific genre.
you said yourself that there could be something in black metal.

so, we are already getting somewhere.

this is not the topic about death metal only.

This thread is a no win. The OP continually repeats that this thread is about "extreme death metal" anytime someone makes a point about a band that does not fit that defintition. So when people try to stay on point you come in and state that this topic in not about death metal only.

Either way this is the answer..... Demonic forces are not proven to exist. Without any proof your assumption has no validity. In the face of these facts the answer to your question is No, there aren't any demonic forces guiding the minds of the people who create "extreme" death metal / horror movies.

what he said in his first sentence in the opening post:

I believe demonic forces influence the minds behind extreme ''entertainment'', such as horror/gore movies, death metal etc.

so yes, the topic is not about death metal only.
he even mentions that he doesn't mean all death metal bands.

demonic forces are not proven to exist... that is true. is there any proof that demonic forces do not exist?

and you answered to the wrong guy, I don't claim that "demonic forces guide the minds..."

I am just discussing the possibilities.

what kind of experience you have with extreme music/movies and other extreme entertainment, care to share?

All these bands are just trying to one up each other and that's how it gets to the level we are now discussing.

edit on 8-4-2014 by Gargamel because: (no reason given)

yes, I agree: "that is how it gets to the level we are now discussing"
since you mentioned "level" I suppose you acknowledge there are some really sick things in the music/movies etc. as we're keep pushing boundaries.
also, refer to the post by saner?giram few posts before this.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I disagree. Alot of it is simply personal predilication and how the brain fires.

From personal experience, my wife cannot stand heavy metal, death metal, techno metal, etc. Any chaotic music causes her to get scatterbrained and puts her emotionally on edge. Loud music and loud conversation has the same effect on her. SHe also does not watch horror movies whatsoever. I, on the flip side of the coin, can sleep peacefully with metal blarring, find that my mind works better and I can concentrate much more acutely with extremely chaotic music blasting, and absolutely love horror movies. (I also take Zinc every few night before bedtime because it causes vivid dreams, often in the category others would consider "nightmares" which I happen to enjoy.)

That said, I'm of the Christian persuasion and was raised in a much more religious home than my wife was. I just happen to be wired in a manner that enjoys certain forms of chaos. If I'm trying to concentrate and can hear someone in the office quietly conversing, or trying to sleep and hear a faucet dripping or some other quiet noise, it drives me nuts. Loud and chaotic, however, I'm good with. I fail to see "demonic" in any of that.

demus

Gargamel

demus

Gargamel

demus

tsurfer2000h
reply to post by demus

 

so now black metal musicians "could be influenced by something"? while death metal is immune from "being influenced by something"?

If you look at the origins of both and the ideology that they have for the music you will see why I posted that.

do you realize (as I mentioned more than once) that this not talk about any specific style...

And you obviously didn't pay attention to this from the OP.

The bottom of the first post on this page...

the topic of the op was extreme horror/death metal and the gore/death/perversion obsession that manifest in their ''creative expression''.

So yes it is.

so every death metal band share same ideology for their music? NOT
every black metal band share same ideology for their music? NOT

death metal has different meaning to different people but even if he meant exactly what is considered definition of death metal it still doesn't mean this is a topic about specific genre.
you said yourself that there could be something in black metal.

so, we are already getting somewhere.

this is not the topic about death metal only.

This thread is a no win. The OP continually repeats that this thread is about "extreme death metal" anytime someone makes a point about a band that does not fit that defintition. So when people try to stay on point you come in and state that this topic in not about death metal only.

Either way this is the answer..... Demonic forces are not proven to exist. Without any proof your assumption has no validity. In the face of these facts the answer to your question is No, there aren't any demonic forces guiding the minds of the people who create "extreme" death metal / horror movies.

what he said in his first sentence in the opening post:

I believe demonic forces influence the minds behind extreme ''entertainment'', such as horror/gore movies, death metal etc.

so yes, the topic is not about death metal only.
he even mentions that he doesn't mean all death metal bands.

demonic forces are not proven to exist... that is true. is there any proof that demonic forces do not exist?

and you answered to the wrong guy, I don't claim that "demonic forces guide the minds..."

I am just discussing the possibilities.

what kind of experience you have with extreme music/movies and other extreme entertainment, care to share?

All these bands are just trying to one up each other and that's how it gets to the level we are now discussing.

edit on 8-4-2014 by Gargamel because: (no reason given)

yes, I agree: "that is how it gets to the level we are now discussing"
since you mentioned "level" I suppose you acknowledge there are some really sick things in the music/movies etc. as we're keep pushing boundaries.
also, refer to the post by saner?giram few posts before this.

I agree that some of the stuff out there is quite disturbing but I do not think that it has anything to do with demonic influences. Some people are genuinley messed up (like the dudes from Mayhem) and some are just trying to push the envelope in order to try and seperate themselves from the pack.

Gargamel

demus

Gargamel

demus

Gargamel

demus

tsurfer2000h
reply to post by demus

 

so now black metal musicians "could be influenced by something"? while death metal is immune from "being influenced by something"?

If you look at the origins of both and the ideology that they have for the music you will see why I posted that.

do you realize (as I mentioned more than once) that this not talk about any specific style...

And you obviously didn't pay attention to this from the OP.

The bottom of the first post on this page...

the topic of the op was extreme horror/death metal and the gore/death/perversion obsession that manifest in their ''creative expression''.

So yes it is.

so every death metal band share same ideology for their music? NOT
every black metal band share same ideology for their music? NOT

death metal has different meaning to different people but even if he meant exactly what is considered definition of death metal it still doesn't mean this is a topic about specific genre.
you said yourself that there could be something in black metal.

so, we are already getting somewhere.

this is not the topic about death metal only.

This thread is a no win. The OP continually repeats that this thread is about "extreme death metal" anytime someone makes a point about a band that does not fit that defintition. So when people try to stay on point you come in and state that this topic in not about death metal only.

Either way this is the answer..... Demonic forces are not proven to exist. Without any proof your assumption has no validity. In the face of these facts the answer to your question is No, there aren't any demonic forces guiding the minds of the people who create "extreme" death metal / horror movies.

what he said in his first sentence in the opening post:

I believe demonic forces influence the minds behind extreme ''entertainment'', such as horror/gore movies, death metal etc.

so yes, the topic is not about death metal only.
he even mentions that he doesn't mean all death metal bands.

demonic forces are not proven to exist... that is true. is there any proof that demonic forces do not exist?

and you answered to the wrong guy, I don't claim that "demonic forces guide the minds..."

I am just discussing the possibilities.

what kind of experience you have with extreme music/movies and other extreme entertainment, care to share?

All these bands are just trying to one up each other and that's how it gets to the level we are now discussing.

edit on 8-4-2014 by Gargamel because: (no reason given)

yes, I agree: "that is how it gets to the level we are now discussing"
since you mentioned "level" I suppose you acknowledge there are some really sick things in the music/movies etc. as we're keep pushing boundaries.
also, refer to the post by saner?giram few posts before this.

I agree that some of the stuff out there is quite disturbing but I do not think that it has anything to do with demonic influences. Some people are genuinley messed up (like the dudes from Mayhem) and some are just trying to push the envelope in order to try and seperate themselves from the pack.

yes, but do you know that Mayhem and complete beginning of black metal in Norway was for MANY of the young musicians that participated in the movement just good fun and way of shocking the country/world.

in the end some end up doing some nasty things - almost like they were influenced by some evil forces.

call it a demon or whatever.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

I was into Slayer and bands like that when I was in high school. It was a time when heavy metal branched into thrash and speed metal. The thrash metal bands chose the imagery of death, murder and horror as it suited their music. This meant that thrash was an extreme contrast to mainstream rock and popular metal bands. Likewise it was a time when other genres of 'rock' came about like funk-rock with the Chilli Peppers and Faith No More. There was industrial and weird prog-stuff like VoiVod.

The thing with being extreme is that it can't last. It wasn't long before Scandinavian bands were farming out Black Metal that went all-in to out-horror the thrashers. When Slayer were singing about murderous Nazis and Satan's dreams of ruling Earth, these guys had the imagery of killing kids and raping the dead. Lyrically they had to out-gun thrash-metal to show how extreme and shocking they could be. One group was even involved in murders.

I guess my point is that human nature caused these guys to out-shock each other and one reason why death and black metal's lost its reputation is the banality of it all. I mean, how many songs can be written about killing kids before the listener isn't moved or shocked? All they are now are tedious guys trying to shock while the rest of us roll our eyes and yawn...

Gargamel....
I agree that some of the stuff out there is quite disturbing but I do not think that it has anything to do with demonic influences. Some people are genuinley messed up (like the dudes from Mayhem) and some are just trying to push the envelope in order to try and seperate themselves from the pack.

The fact that an entire genre of music comprises of bands that rely on the most sickening imagery and lyrics indicates to me that demonic forces are most active in that particular scene. If you find your kid with a ''Cesspool of Vermin'' or ''Devourment'' CD (see samples on previous page) , are you going to push it aside like it was nothing...or are you going to raise questions? As of now, I am questioning the source that produces such vile work. People say its human in origin...I am saying it originates from demons.

You know, all the things I was trying to convey, conjure, conject in a reply here; it all boils down to one question:
How many of these bands/movies members/directors/actors enact the concept of their art and imaginings? In other words, how many dig up corpses, mutilate living beings or consume human flesh?
Sure it's happened, and surely will happen. Unfortunate, but a fact. The most unfortunate thing is that there is no way to tell which fan of which art, or which creator of what art medium, will turn their fantasy into reality. (that should have probably been written more generally, but, ya.)

In actuality, most of the art and imaginings of these individuals are inspired, i.e. not created thought, but influenced thought.
At the very base of the matter, leading up to this point and traveling through time, ALL we think, say and do is influenced.
Our seemingly unique thoughts are just shades of archetypes and memes older than recorded time...

I don't see any real difference in my premise, than in one where demonic forces are responsible... only that demonic forces seem more a scapegoat than accepting that our mental faculties are subject to predisposed socio-biological influences, both ancient and contemporary.

No matter the demons nor ancient memetic behaviour, we are decision makers, and not all decisions meet glory.