Could a tiny Estonian town mean the end of NATO?

baburak
You must be kidding. About an invasion: can you tell me where in the history there was an invasion where people met soldiers as heroes, where army in that regions parties with 'attackers' and organizes a football tournament and where 97% of the voters choose to leave country?

Claims about discrimination are much different from claims of genocide threats against population. And those claims are not new. Same people that made the coup against democratic officials were making those threats for the last 15+ years. You heard leaked phone call from Tymoshenko? Few years ago she already said that if it was her decision that she would put a barbwire around Russian speaking regions. Wests favorite Tyagnibok was ousted from Svoboda because of anti-semitism in 2004. He was calling population of South Eastern Ukraine dogs and slaves for the last 15 years. Now he's back and he leads first Nazi party that has seats in the highest government position since WWII. Even Israel (few years ago) warned EU that they have to do something about him and Svoboda. Right sector made claims that they will kill Moscali as they call Russian speaking Ukrainians in the Southeastern part of Ukraine. Those slogans were among the loudest on the Maidan. And the language law was important catalyst ... You simply can not forbid people to use language that they speak from their birth and learn Ukrainian in the school as second language (this is the case in the Ukraine).

So, when people ASK for protection and get it, it's not an invasion. And btw: Yanukovich is still a president and he can legally call Russia to help him. When parliament voted him out, 'only' 72% of the parliament voted to do so when Ukrainian constitution clearly says that 75% is minimum. Someone should tell Obama and Merkel which number is to be considered in this case. So, he has the right to ask Russia for help and they have to respond because of the agreements they have.

And newest news: people of other regions are protesting and asking for Yanukovich to come back and ask Putin for help. This 'campaign' already has few tens of thousands of followers and is gaining popularity among the population of those regions. Situation in Ukraine is far from over.

But my main point was: Estonia cannot compare to Ukraine in this situation.

edit on 27-3-2014 by baburak because: (no reason given)

Most invaders are hailed as liberators. Ukraine in particullar is used to that game. Hail the people with the guns, show you love them and maybe they leave you alone. One of your puppets invited you in you in? we know better than to say otherwise. You want us to vote, sure. Leave off the option to stay a part of Ukraine? No problem. Troops at voting booths? No problem. Clear voting boxes? Sure we do not care. We love you guys. It will take awhile and when the cost to keep so many troops in Crimea gets to high and the withdraw then the resistance will start. This occupation is going to prove no different than any other as it has unfolded just like any other.

reply to post by MrSpad


"Leave of the option to stay a part of Ukraine":
- there was an option of seceding from Ukraine and joining Russia and option to stay in Ukraine and revert back to the 1991 constitution which would gave them more autonomy

"Troops at voting booth":
- there were no troops at voting booth.

"Clear voting boxes":
- I don't even know what you mean by that.

Costs to have troops in Crimea couldn't get high. Russia already had an agreement with Ukraine that it can have up to 25.000 troops in Crimea and there were 'only' around 19 thousands. Russia has it's navy forces in Crimea for the last two and a half centuries, more time then official US has a Navy.

International observers (unofficial since EU didn't want to send theirs) of the vote said that voting was clean and without any threats. Everyone in Crimea who is older than 54, was born on Russian territory. Their kids were always thought by their parents, that the were Russians. They tried to secede from Ukraine many times since the Soviet break-up and now they had their chance. For them it is like 'going home'.

I see that your belief is based on your convictions and beliefs that Russians invaded. The case is much different. They were already there for 200+ years. Without shots fired it is not even considered to be an invasion and that is why unelected Turchinov couldn't order Ukrainian troops to open fire. And when he finally did, they refused. At least 10 highest military officials were changed and accused of being national enemies because they refused to give order to attack Russian troops because it would be illegal and mainly because they know each other. They were in the same army, they were friends, they fought together ... nobody there wants to fight (except Right Sector, members of which Turchinov included in the 'national defense team' and gave them guns, even though they make threats on a daily basis to kill Russian speaking Ukraininans).

baburak
reply to post by MrSpad

 

"Leave of the option to stay a part of Ukraine":
- there was an option of seceding from Ukraine and joining Russia and option to stay in Ukraine and revert back to the 1991 constitution which would gave them more autonomy

"Troops at voting booth":
- there were no troops at voting booth.

"Clear voting boxes":
- I don't even know what you mean by that.

Costs to have troops in Crimea couldn't get high. Russia already had an agreement with Ukraine that it can have up to 25.000 troops in Crimea and there were 'only' around 19 thousands. Russia has it's navy forces in Crimea for the last two and a half centuries, more time then official US has a Navy.

International observers (unofficial since EU didn't want to send theirs) of the vote said that voting was clean and without any threats. Everyone in Crimea who is older than 54, was born on Russian territory. Their kids were always thought by their parents, that the were Russians. They tried to secede from Ukraine many times since the Soviet break-up and now they had their chance. For them it is like 'going home'.

I see that your belief is based on your convictions and beliefs that Russians invaded. The case is much different. They were already there for 200+ years. Without shots fired it is not even considered to be an invasion and that is why unelected Turchinov couldn't order Ukrainian troops to open fire. And when he finally did, they refused. At least 10 highest military officials were changed and accused of being national enemies because they refused to give order to attack Russian troops because it would be illegal and mainly because they know each other. They were in the same army, they were friends, they fought together ... nobody there wants to fight (except Right Sector, members of which Turchinov included in the 'national defense team' and gave them guns, even though they make threats on a daily basis to kill Russian speaking Ukraininans).

edit on 28-3-2014 by baburak because: (no reason given)

So by your logic since the US has been in Cuba with GITMO if we invaded and took over it would be perfectly fine? Or if Mexico took Texas because it is full of peopel with a Mexican heritage? And you seem to confuse the type of troops on the street in Crimea with what is their now. Those troops on the streets are not from the Naval base, they are not sailors or logistics troops. They are mostly Russia Special Forces. And if you think that vote was legit? I would hate to see what you think in not legit. The option to remain a part of Ukriane as is was not even on the ballet. Period. Troops were stationed in front of polling places to "keep order". And the voting boxes were clear, as in you put them in a big clear box so anybody can see how you voted. Not that it matters the fact the Russian military is in the streets makes sure nobody is dumb enough to vote the other way. Not even China or Iran think that vote was legit. Interesting you do.

I would not worry to much about it Cabin. That area is to vulnerable to Russian troops since any Navy from NATO could rapidly kick the Russians in the face from the sea. That is a bad choke point for them.

Old thread, but today came out the estimate of the amount of natural resources in the area and I thought it was worth sharing here. Most of it lies in that particular area, not all.

But well, it is believed the total amount of the resources there is worth more than 800 billion euros, some of the largest reserves of phosphorite and uranium in europe + molybdenum, gold, silver and several rare-earth metals. A lot of money to be made for someone some day.

Currently, there is no safe technology to extract it, although there are many corporations interested in it currently and there have been several pushes. I hope the government will not give before safer alternatives for mining it are invented.

And well, of course this is one of the reason, why Russia would be interested in the area. Although, so far when media have brought up a similar scenario like Crimea happening round here, majority of the local russians have rather felt insulted of even thinking some like that happening here.