Materialism should be labeled a religious belief

There's this back and forth between materialism and idealism but the fact is materialism has no basis in reality according to current scientific understanding.

Materialism is the belief that matter somehow randomly forms into the world that we see. Even when you look at the definition it's labeled as a philosophy.

the philosophical theory that regards matter and its motions as constituting the universe, and all phenomena, including those of mind, as due to material agencies.

dictionary.reference.com...

The problem occurs because many in science treat materialism as an objective truth. Therefore everything must fit into a materialistic box when nothing fits into a materialistic box. Einstein and the advent of Quantum Mechanics destroyed any notions of materialism.

The guiding force of materialism is an atheistic belief system This goes directly to Darwin and evolution. Science shouldn't be guided by materialism or idealism because both are philosophies. Science should be guided by evidence.

So if the evidence supports idealism, then it just supports idealism. What happens today is any notion that materialism isn't the answer is derided as pseudo science when there's zero evidence to support materialism.

There's no evidence that matter has an objective existence of the cup sitting on my table or a tree I see when I look out of my window. There's only 2 things that give these things existence, the mind and mathematics.

In fact, Quantum Mechanics tells us matter is like play dough. It exists as a wave of probabilities until the mind and mathematics give it form. Mathematics allows the Mind to understand and predict the nature of reality down to the smallest levels. Materialism will have believe that mathematics just describes the random interactions between matter. This isn't the case at all. The mathematics puts constraints on how matter can behave and this is why we have the laws of physics.

There was a recent discovery of gravitational waves which supports inflation. It was mathematics and mind that allowed Alan Guth and others to make these predictions that can be confirmed by observation and it's also mathematics and mind that allows these observations to be observed.

When someone drops a ball and it falls to the ground, it's not because any random interactions of matter. It's because the laws of Gravity tells matter how it will behave and the mind observes and understand this.

This isn't just to belittle the role of matter, but it's obvious that matter plays a secondary role to mathematics and the mind.

reply to post by neoholographic


very nicely presented and i agree totally.
S&F

As per materialism it also occurs to me that the ONE thing responsible for all societal achievement--including "science"--is that weightless, massless wonder we call "consciousness." The most astounding phenomenon we know is non-materialistic, eh? Go figure. Then there's paradox..."material" my butt.

reply to post by neoholographic


Who are "materialists" worshiping? Who do they pray to? Which power to they believe is controlling everything?

If you can't name a superhuman controlling power, then its not a religion no matter how hard to try to bend the definition to fit your preconceived notion.

reply to post by xDeadcowx

The flawed god, Darwin?

If no "gods" or higher consciousness/matrix exists, as the materialist suggests, then worship is worship, no?

I would be inclined to call it a mild form of mental illness. After all, the extreme forms of materialism are hoarding, and that is classed as a mental illness, no?

preoccupation with or emphasis on material objects, comforts, and considerations, with a disinterest in or rejection of spiritual, intellectual, or cultural values.

SOURCE

Either definition, mine or yours, is a valid conclusion.

The problem I have is that we (or at least I) do not have very good tools to intent->manifest things I want in the quantum reality (excluding limited Reiki).

The so called intention->manifestation seem to be very low leveled and to be able to achieve temporary synchronicity between two minds to achieve simple telepathic messages seems to be very hard and time consuming (especially with ego projection distortions).

Materialism is just basic evolutionary psychology - not religion.
The more stuff you have then the better chance of survival and the more attractive 'mate' you'd make.
The more stuff the male has, the better he can provide for a womans' children.
The more stuff the male has, the more choices in mating partner he'd get.
The more stuff the female has, the better she can provide for her children.
And basic evolutionary psychology .. it's all about passing down the DNA and mating ...

So materialism is basic evolutionary psychology.
Nothing religious about it.

Side note - someone brought up extreme hoarding. That's different. That's a disorder.

reply to post by The GUT


re·li·gion
riˈlijən
noun
1. the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.

So no, not a religion.

I posted on the inflation thread about ''anti knowledge'' (gossip / celeb culture /corporate and government lies / banking system /unsubstantiated religious beliefs etc) being parallel to knowledge, it is an interesting concept.

dw2blog.com...

reply to post by xDeadcowx


Wrong.

There's Buddhist that don't worship a super human controlling power. This goes for Taoist also. There's a reason why you didn't post the full definition of Religion.

Religion

: the belief in a god or in a group of gods

: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods

: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group

www.merriam-webster.com...

There appears to be some confusion in the thread -- the OP is talking about the philosophy of materialism, not physical materialism ("hoarding") or consumerism.

In philosophy, the theory of materialism holds that all things are composed of material, and that all emergent phenomena (including consciousness) are the result of material properties and interactions. In other words, the theory claims that our reality consists entirely of physical matter that is the sole cause of every possible occurrence, including human thought, feeling, and action.

Materialism is typically considered to be closely related to physicalism; although, to some philosophers, materialism is synonymous with physicalism.

Contrasting philosophies include idealism and other forms of monism, dualism, and pluralism. (Source)

Much of modern atheistic thought is rooted in a ancient form of materialism, Epicureanism (which, to avoid further confusion, has nothing to do with food, lol.)

reply to post by neoholographic


I agree with you about matter. It hasn't been properly defined. The same goes for physicalism.

But this?

There's only 2 things that give these things existence, the mind and mathematics.

You have left the evidence, friend, and have merely postulated your own beliefs where others have stood. This is no different than than what you are writing against, and I fear we have entered the realm of double-standards and even superstition.

reply to post by The GUT

The most astounding phenomenon we know is non-materialistic, eh? Go figure.

Stupidity is another astounding phenomena that is "non-materialistic", but it is nonetheless performed by physical things. Go figure.

reply to post by Words

Outstanding job of arguing my point and demonstrating yours.

reply to post by neoholographic


So should many other things... man made global warming, the Theory of Evolution, Liberalism, and many, many others.

reply to post by The GUT

Outstanding job of arguing my point and demonstrating yours.

Strange. There is a consciousness typing words, with its non-material fingers and its non-material computer. That's quite the magical powers you have there. At least you don't have to take responsibility for yourself. Let your consciousness do the work and the heavy lifting.

reply to post by Words


How much does consciousness weigh again? What "material" does it consist of? Ghost in the machine. Of course material things exist too, so your argument isn't very coherent. Try to type a message on your computer (that was created by consciousness, btw) without your non-material consciousness.

That's quite the magical powers you have there. At least you don't have to take responsibility for yourself. Let your consciousness do the work and the heavy lifting.

Did you even think about that before you wrote it? I'd say consciousness has everything do to with taking responsibility for one's self. It's still non-material though.

reply to post by The GUT

How much does consciousness weigh again? What "material" does it consist of? Ghost in the machine. Of course material things exist too, so your argument isn't very coherent. Try to type a message on your computer (that was created by consciousness, btw) without your non-material consciousness.

I don't know, how much does a push-up weigh? How much does a dance routine weigh? What is a swim made out of? How much does a smile weigh? How much does sleep weigh? How much does sight weigh? What material is bravery made of? What material is thinking made of? You're right—none—because they aren't anything. It's a non-sensical question. They are what the body does. They are actions performed by a body, just like being conscious.

You can only ever say consciousness creates something, that somehow something other than the body sees, thinks, and types the keyboard, but you could never explain how a non-material substance can interact with physical things. You could never explain how a non-material consciousness can remember physical interactions. You could never explain how a non-material consciousness has come to be imprisoned inside a physical body. And your ghost in the machine analogy is the weakest analogy I may have ever come across. Name one ghost in any single machine that has ever existed, and it might make sense. But it doesn't. No ghost. No machine. The only phenomena you or anyone else has ever witnessed in regards to consciousness is the physical human body.

Words
...your ghost in the machine analogy is the weakest analogy I may have ever come across. Name one ghost in any single machine that has ever existed, and it might make sense.

You'll have to take up the "weakness" of that with neurophysiologist and Nobel Prize winner Sir John Eccles who described the brain as "…a machine that a ghost can operate."

Quantum Physics seems to finally be shedding some light on what "science" once knew. What I mean by that is that Philosophy is the father of the scientific method. When the materialists pulled so blindly away from philosophy, we lost the greatness of the "Alchemists." The alchemist (no, I don't refer to the turning lead into gold-type per se) being more rounded (science, philosophy) and now being re-birthed--hopefully--by quantum discoveries.

Sir John Carew Eccles, AC FRS[4] FRACP FRSNZ FAAS (27 January 1903 – 2 May 1997) was an Australian neurophysiologist who won the 1963 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for his work on the synapse…Eccles was key to a number of important developments in neuroscience.
en.wikipedia.org...(neurophysiologist)

A couple more quotes by Sir John as relates to this OP:

The materialist critics argue that insuperable difficulties are encountered by the hypothesis that immaterial mental events can act in any way on material structures such as neurons. Such a presumed action is alleged to be incompatible with the conservation laws of physics, in particular of the first law of thermodynamics. This objection would certainly be sustained by nineteenth century physicists, and by neuroscientists and philosophers who are still ideologically in the physics of the nineteenth century, not recognizing the revolution wrought by quantum physicists in the twentieth century.

“We regard promissory materialism as superstition without a rational foundation. The more we discover about the brain, the more clearly do we distinguish between the brain events and the mental phenomena, and the more wonderful do both the brain events and the mental phenomena become. Promissory materialism is simply a religious belief held by dogmatic materialists . . . who often confuse their religion with their science.”

― John C. Eccles, The Wonder of Being Human: Our Brain and Our Mind

There is no, "Theory of the Mind" as of yet, and one might say that it's the materialists--who by their "handicap"--have limited themselves to ever having one.