With 79% Turnout, Exit Polls Confirm 93% Voters Back Crimea Joining Russia

benrl
This is an internal matter between the People of the Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

It should remain such until directly asked in the UN by one of those parties.

I disagree.

It is an internal disaster within a sovereign state, inflicted externally, by Russia, on Ukraine.

Crimea is Ukraine.

Now Putin, the godless thug, will attempt to 'consolidate' the theft, with more theft, period.

# 214

Yusomad


As opposed to the neo-nazis that established themselves in kiev? :

This is not being mentioned by western media, I don't think the public would be comfortable knowing the UK/US backed far right neo nazi groups to overthrow a democratically elected leader just because he didnt want to play the EU happy families game.
The whole situation out there is screwed.
There is propaganda by both the western media and Russian and both are playing games with peoples lives
This is not black and white, not simply evil Russia vs Good US/UK.

They have taken away Kosovo from my country, then, Russia has the full right to do the same. It's the same situation. Absolutely the same. And I don't quite remember anyone here was against taking away Kosovo back then, when it was in favor of the west.
So I don't believe anyone here of you have any rights whatsoever to oppose this, instead just let it be, just like you let it with Kosovo.

If the majority of the Crimean population is Russian, it's hardly very surprising that, when asked, they would vote to be part of Russia. Duh.

By that logic, large areas of the UK should belong to India and Pakistan.

It's a cynical manipulation of truth by the gangsters currently governing the second most powerful country on the planet.

Let Russia trade with its mate, China; but the rest of the world should ignore and boycott these maverick states until they choose mature, responsible leaders to run their affairs.

The west could assist this process by not invading/bombing sovereign states without a UNSC mandate.

Nikola014
They have taken away Kosovo from my country, then, Russia has the full right to do the same. It's the same situation. Absolutely the same. And I don't quite remember anyone here was against taking away Kosovo back then, when it was in favor of the west.
So I don't believe anyone here of you have any rights whatsoever to oppose this, instead just let it be, just like you let it with Kosovo.

Nobody is taking away anything ..People have spoken in both instances.

The only difference is totally different reaction by two-faced western countries. They don't care about laws or democracy, it's all about oil, gas and geo-strategy to them.

reply to post by Bassago


Well i guess that's democracy in action then, problem solved!

reply to post by Bassago


Thank goodness for democracy and the rule of law.

The people behind this whole mess, and who financed and instigated it all HATE democacy, which is after all an illusion. When people make it work and decide to vote on what is best for THEM, and not the elites, they need to be shown who is master.

No violations at the Crimea referendum have been reported by the international observers currently present in the republic.

“It’s all quiet so far,” Mateus Psikorkski, the leader of the European observers’ mission and Polish MP told Itar-Tass. “Our observers have not registered any violations of voting rules.”

Another observer, Ewald Stadler, member of the European Parliament, dispelled the “referendum at gunpoint” myth, by saying he felt people were free to make their choice.

“I haven’t seen anything even resembling pressure,” he said. “People themselves want to have their say.”

rt.com...

So, all this nonsense about people being forced at gunpoint to vote "the right way" is, as expected, utter nonsense and completely baseless. Of course, it makes a god story for those pushing the line that what happened in Ukraine was all above board and legit and the will of the people etc...etc...
If that were really the case, they'd have voted out Yanukovich at the ballot box, not by violent overthrow, especially financed and run by foreign powers. I am sure those Ukrainians not in Crimea will all be dancing in the streets as they are impoverished further by their new overlords, who will sell off whatever they can and push the country further into debt to the globalist bankers and corporations.
Oh, but Yanukovich was a corrupt politician is the cry of those defending the actions of the foreign backed, self appointed government. But was he really any more corrupt than our own politicians? I am quite sure he probably has less blood on his hands than our own masters and as for corruption, he was probably a bit low key compared to our own bunch of western criminals.

SLAYER69

benrl

And according to this poll at least, the Russians seem to be invited.

Russia invited to an election deciding whether or not to leave their mother country and join Russia....

Seems legit.

Slayer,
What's new? The US only recognizes regimes that are willing to play the game and give them space to make a new base. I dont know what to think about all of this right now. And it's not my job to think about it. But I did have pause when on Saturday the emergency alert system went over the radio...I used to ignore them as tests. At least I did since 1990. It seems like people want everyone on edge again for nuclear destruction.

SLAYER69

benrl
This is an internal matter between the People of the Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

If truly 'internal' it wouldn't include 'Russia...

Depends on how you look at it. Secession generally leads to civil war, does it not? Crimea has tried to secede from Ukraine off and on since the 90's. This time, while Kiev was a mess, they made moves to do so again while the leadership of Ukraine was in flummox. As Crimea's desire was to go to Russia and that tendency of secession linking to civil war, then is it really surprising that Russia may move to support the republic's desire as a defensive move and perhaps at the Crimean Parliament's request?

The majority of Crimea's population has been largely of Russian descent so no great surprise at the voting outcome. Additionally, what occurred in the Ukraine could've been a "revolution" to one group while being seen as a "coup" by another. Apparently, to the people of Crimea, they perceived it as a coup and began making moves again to secede from Ukraine. Hence how Crimea got to the point of voting on the matter. Last I checked, the border between Ukraine and Crimea was being manned, according to Crimean press, by both Russian and Crimean self defense. That, to me, shows collaboration between Russia and Crimea in expectation of possible civil war.

Democracy is democracy even when the outcome of a vote is not what some other wants. It's not our business. It's Crimea's.

reply to post by WhiteAlice


Dang. That is the first time I have ever read one of your posts and agreed with you. As a matter of fact, I have been saying the same thing although you said it very succinctly.

Nikola014
They have taken away Kosovo from my country, then, Russia has the full right to do the same. It's the same situation.

No it's not; not even close to the same situation.

As I recall, ethnically separate Muslims were being murdered en masse, and that this was being instigated by your (then) government, some members of which are currently doing serious jail-time for war crimes.

The partitioning of Yugoslavia was necessary to protect the Muslim contingent from suffering a similar fate in the future.

Yusomad
As opposed to the neo-nazis that established themselves in kiev? Yup.

You need to stop blurting out Russian propaganda. The non-Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine are not fascists. Whatever happened to people's ability to question what they read.

Any half-brain knows that this is a sham. The result was preordained. Russia has engineered this very well, right down to the Russian troops keeping the Ukrainian troops in their barracks. I guess the next move will be to kick them out as Putin consolidates. Pity there were not more Crimean Tartars around to vote; no, wait, the Russians killed most of them off in one of their attempts at cultural genocide. Look at the history.

Regards

reply to post by WhiteAlice


I'll agree, you often do see that but not always, when the Soviet Union disintegrated we didn't see much in the way of civil war. We saw many former Soviet states go their own way. If Crimea wishes to be part of Russia that's their business but let's not pretend like these results are completely accurate. Nobody ever gets figures that high, well, maybe in North Korea.

Last I checked, the border between Ukraine and Crimea was being manned, according to Crimean press, by both Russian and Crimean self defense.That, to me, shows collaboration between Russia and Crimea in expectation of possible civil war.

How can there be the possibility of civil war if Russia is in their business? We have one poster saying it's 'Internal' with Russia involved and now another saying it's a civil war potential with Russian troops supporting one side.

Yup, ATS

reply to post by paraphi


'neo-nazi' is code for 'anti-semitic'.

It's supposed to carry a tacit branding of malum in se.

It's like calling Ukraine persons who rally against invasion 'radicals'.

It's the media in action. This time, they were hesitant to use it, even to mention it.

I guess they feel more confident now.

Anyone wonder why the UN is sitting back, doing nothing?

One day the neo-nazi slander meme game will backfire.

I predict lots of cameras placed everywhere, being operated by the usual suspects.

More jailer tactics, to keep their place at the top, intact. Then, drones.

# 215

I think it's none of our god damn business what Ukraine and Russia want to do with Crimea, it's their problem, let them sort it out. Unless america and its corporate puppet government wants to make money (as usual) off the crisis.

greencmp
reply to post by Bassago

 

Thank goodness for democracy and the rule of law.

Only WHITE land owning males of age could vote in this stronghold of democracy known as the US and A. It took amendments to the Holy Constitution to have anyone else vote. 2/5ths clause, no chicks...Then the gerrymandering and poll taxes...who is the US to call b.s. for any election.
History. Too many investors in petrochemical interests in east Europe...

the owlbear
Too many investors in petrochemical interests in east Europe...

Who is Russia for 500 Bob

This vote gives Obama, Kerry, the administration an "out" as far as intervention goes.

They'll just shrug their shoulders and say that the people have spoken. They'll continue to talk tough to give the semblance of a backbone, but this is a done deal.

reply to post by SLAYER69


I believe that 70% of Crimea's population is of Russian descent and of Pro-Russia stance. The history of the relationship between Ukraine and Crimea has not been an easy one. As I already stated, Crimea actually voted to secede from Ukraine in the 90's. At the same time, they created their own Constitution. The Ukraine Parliament not only annulled their vote to secede but also annulled Crimea's Constitution. Iirc, the Crimean Parliament attempted again to create their own Constitution and their existing one was allowed only after Ukraine made them amend specific lines of that Constitution and allowed them to become an autonomous republic. I can imagine that these moves by Ukraine are probably not a source of love by the people within Crimea. There's a whole nest of issues within that relationship that have affected the lives of the Crimean people. Between this and that 70% of Russian descent, is it still that surprising that the turn out would be so high?

I think the primary group that had issue with returning to Russia was the Crimean Tartars and primarily due to discriminatory abuses that had occurred in the past. From what I understand, the Crimean parliament made moves to assure the Tartars that those abuses would not occur again. They are a minority within Crimea.

As far as the dissolution of the USSR goes, part of the reason why it was so relatively peaceful was because it was led by Yeltsin, who was fairly popular at the time. Yeltsin, on a trip funded by the Esalen Institute, met with many American business leaders and former presidents (ie Reagan) that basically changed his mind on the USSR's stance. Just as a fun fact, Esalen also had a great deal of influence with Gorbachev as well. Curious bunch.

Part of the reason why Yeltsin was so easily converted was because Communism was turning into a logistical nightmare. I went to the USSR in 1987 and there was a tremendous shortage of toilet paper at the time. The number of production shortages for the entire country was huge and of a sort that we would consider basic needs. Toilet paper, soap, shampoo--and this condition was all the way into the heart of the Soviet Union--Moscow. The USSR that I saw had very poor living conditions and they knew there was a problem.

By the time that Yeltsin came onto the scene, the USSR had already been reducing down into areas of chaos and deep civil unrest, particularly in the Baltic and Caucus regions. Its dissolution was not entirely smooth and violence did occur. By the time 1990 rolled around, the political scenery had been forced to both adapt and change and that's when sovereignty votes were occurring on numerous fronts. It didn't precisely all go down smoothly but, quite frankly, I'm pretty sure that the leadership of the USSR at the time knew that their goose was cooked.

I don't see why you expect the variety of posters here to have the same view on any given subject. Consensus is very rarely reached in reality and I'm grateful for the disparate views here on ATS. As far as the possibility of civil war with Russia involved, I think that that is the point. With Russia backing Crimea's vote for independence from Ukraine, it makes it a much scarier issue for Ukraine to move into Crimea in response. It could very well be construed as a preemptive defensive stance to prevent civil war.

More reading (second link for fun on Esalen because, frankly, they don't get enough attention):
en.wikipedia.org...
www.nytimes.com...