Hey Fat Cats wake up!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yo!!!!!

What are you doin????

We don't want tax cuts!!!!!!

Can't you see that people need jobs first????

This country is pissed.

No one is happy with these tax cuts, and everyone has someone to blame.

What else is new right???

The people want more than just kickbacks, they want justice.

Give our people more constructive operations to boost the economy. Money back does nothing when the money is just taken back by another taxer.

The cycle never ends.

People need to wake up.

People need to get real.


Abe

ah... right.

While I'm not in complete agreement with the style and substance of this tax cut, the basics of the idea are economically sound. Especially the concept of removing the traditional double-tax on stock dividends.

Macroeconomics is a comlex concept... while on the surface, it may seem as though simple job-creation programs would benefit the economy better than tax cuts, traditionally, such programs only create low-paying "blue collar" jobs. On the other hand, tax cuts (and high-end cuts) sometimes don't bring the desired results other.

I agree with the strategy behind the reasons for the cuts, an attempt to improve the health and vitality of corporate America... which in-turn, should generate jobs. However, not enough was done to ensure corporate America has improved its ethics since the market scandals.

More should be done to improve the stock market. We now have a economic culture dependent on the health of the market... and I don't think Bush's old-school cronies understand that.

I agree with William that using fiscal policy to manage the macro-economy is always an unpredictable affair. Also, there is the issue of managing the tax-cuts: if it results in genuine economies that's to the good; but if it results in lay-off's cut services public sector pay-freezes and the like it could do more harm that good.
Ultimately in the free-market, greater productivity always has to be the final answer.

I tend to agree with Abraham, actually, on the basis of "where's the money coming from?" We rely on government services (such a medicare and medicaid) and the states rely on federal monies to help with certain programs. Bush (who has NO concept of budget or management and has managed to run several of his own companies into bankrupcy) has a very poor grasp of economics.

As a result, we're $3 billion in debt and sinking fast (after Clinton left us with no national debt.) Bush grew national debt faster than his father did -- and his father didn't do us any economic good, either.

There was a political cartoon recently that pointed out another hazard -- the states also need that money, and they're all set to raise state income taxes. So while your federal tax may sink, you wil undoubtedly see rises in state and local taxes, and those may t ake an even larger chunk out of your income.

I don't think Clinton had as much direct influence on the amount of national debt as many people seem to feel. He was the lucky benificiary of a very good market-based economy. With the tech-boom of the last half of the 1990's, the swell in available capital helped all sectors of society. Corporations realized more cash for growth, people realized bigger paychecks, governments realized more income from taxes, and so on.

This only shows how tighly interwoven the health of the stock market is to our current economic structure (it's always been tight, but now it's damn symbiotic or something)... and again, Bush's old-school chronies from the voodoo economics era simply don't understand this.

[Edited on 25-5-2003 by William]

The priorities of world capitalism...

Annual amount that is necessary for:
Education for all mankind: 6 billion $
Drinkable water for all mankind: 9 billion $
Healthy deliveries for all women: 12 billion $
Basic health care and nourishment for all mankind: 13 billion $
Elimination of the worst poverty: 40 billion $


Annual amount spent on:
Parties and pleasure for managers in Japan: 35 billion $
Alcoholic beverages in Europe: 105 billion $
Drugs: 400 billion $
Weapons: 780 billion $
Advertisement and marketing: 1000 billion $

Source: Human Development Report of 1998 p. 63

src: www.el-comandante.com...

Its the same loop-da-stoop our government has been playing for decades. Come on people, how many tax cuts and blah blah can you recall in just the past two decades alone! I really wonder if anyone is paying attention to the patterns our government exibits? Please, tax cuts are only followed by new taxes, because they just cut and then paste them somewhere else! Ask anyone who is in Ohio, they can vouch for the BS thats non stop from above. Don't get caught up in the bull jive, We have voteing rights and as a PEOPLE we control the government not the other way around. And if you've forgotten READ THE CONSTITUTION! Thats why it was made FOR THE PEOPLE BY THE PEOPLE.

What constitutes an American? Not color nor race nor religion. Not the pedigree of his family nor the place of his birth. Not the coincidence of his citizenship. An American is one who loves justice and believes in the dignity of man. An American is one who will fight for his freedom and that of his neighbor. An American is one who will sacrifice property, ease, and security in order that he and his children may retain the rights of all free men.
Harold Ickes
"I Am an American" speech

the shifting of the burden from federal to state taxation does need keeping in mind, as a poster noted.
Given that almost every state is required to balance its books this is where fiscal changes will bite and where I -were I an American citizen -would be most alarmed.

The Guardian had a fairly sober piece on this, this morning -and a reminder of where state cutbacks hit -health, education etc.
"Oklahoma .. cutting 6,000 teaching jobs in the financial year just ending and the next.....the budgetary outlook is grim. But for Ms Kelly, there is more at stake than losing her vocation. Her breast cancer ... in remission.... requires monitoring and medicines. Without.... health insurance.. came with... job ..... can afford neither."

story here: and it does not seem excessively sensational.

www.guardian.co.uk...

So, let me get this straight, Ech, I'm supposed to work for my money and then hand it over to the government to spend. Wrong answer.
Over half of what I make goes to taxes. Over half. That's figuring all the different taxes I pay. Now, my state (Alabama) is about to raise taxes again. Sure, the new governor has cut out alot of stupid spending, but that is beside the point.

But lets look at your list.

Education for all mankind: What difference does it make? I work for a corporation that will pay for employee education, books tuition, everything. They'll give you approximately 1/2 day off a week to study, and they'll pay you 10,000 bucks for every bachelors degree you pick up. How many people do you think collect on that? If your guess is low, you are right.
People do not have education owed to them, they need to earn it. Its not my place to pay for their education. Id you'd like to pay for someone's education, have a couple kids and send them off to school.

Drinkable water for all mankind. An important thing, and something we all need. That is obtainable, assuming people live in places that can viably support people and some of those people get the education necessary to build the water supply.

Healthy deliveries for all women.
While travelling through an area, a tourist asked a local, "Were any famous people born in this town?" to which the old local responded thoughtful, "Nope. Only babies."
Again, as areas progress, people become more educated and some of them doctors, this will be. But as of right now, as with the drinking water, who do you assume should pay this international tax? Communism doesn't seem to be for the worker if you ask me, your ideas are the kind that break the back of your strongest horse.

Basic health care and nourishment for all mankind.
We tried to help out in Somalia, the people needing the medical and nutritional assistance killed some of us. Maybe they should attempt to go forward as a community, a culture, and provide this need for themselves. They don't seem to open to outside help.
Norht Korea could sure use some food and medicine, huh? Too bad special eapons and pissing contests with the West is more important. How about Iraq? We secured their freedom for them, lets see how that all works out. My feeling is what is gained cheaply is thrown away easily, so I imagine to se them back in the dire straights they were in, both with food, medicine as well as freedom.

Point is, who is to provide this food and medicine? People already donate to the needy. Yet another pledge response letter came to my house just today. I give on my own will, I need nobody to tell me and tax me.

Eliminating the worst poverty. You say that would only cost 40billion bucks? AS with all your numbers, I think its a bit off, but why should I point this out late in the game? What is poverty? Not having? Not having what? You already covered the major necessities before this one. Not having a cadillac? I already pay taxes so that other people in my town can have cadillacs and not work while I driving a tiring Ford a round trip of 90 miles to the job site. I stand in line at the grocery store buying what I can afford while those ahead of me use that government "credit card" and purchase (with my freakin' hard-earned tax dollars) some of the most beautiful cuts of meat one could imagine. Meanwhile we try to save for a house and some land by working our arses off, my wife and I. Don't hand me any garbage about so much money could cure all these things, buddy, I'm all paid out. All these high-spending liberals and government ticks in Congree need to cough up the money a little while. The ones that tell me these kinds of things are the ones having the parties to which you speak, use the druggs you talk of... Hell, those intelligent stars that despise this nation so much and find their way on the TV to bash the war and Bush and all and try to paint him as a bad guy (he might be, but not for their ignorant, poilitically driven reasons), the money they throw away on drugs, booze, parties, limos and planes could easily feed many of the people you are worrying about.

Point of the matter to the point of the matter is, why are you telling me (us) this? Are ypou saying that the money that goes to marketing should go to the people in Somalia? I'll bet William will be pissed as then he'll be poor.

The reason there are poor people and dirty drinking water is not because I have a Ford and a Miller Light, or because Jennifer Anniston has a Limo and a pound of coke. People suffer for reasons unrelated to the "haves", they suffer for ignorance. And even after they see there's a different way of doing something, nothing says they will change what they know as the way things have always been.

Why is America successful? Europe? Japan? We are all just as human as anyone else, aren't we?

Why has India known terrible poverty and hunger? After all, the people of India live in an area absolutely rich in natural resources.

I'm sorry if it seems I've attacked you, Ech, that was not my intent. Its just that ever since attending public education, liberal teachers have tried to make me feel guilty for wasting money on a stinking donut when there are people in Ethiopia who cannot get a handful of grain. Fact is, I'm wearing my body out trying to earn enough for some land and a house, to put my kids through school and have enough set back so as not to be a burden on anyone when I get old and people who think they know how to spend money better than I do tax me like my money is actually theirs.

Screw them and screw any damned-body who thinks I shouldn't get a tax break. The Founding Fathers went to war at 15%; where have we let them take us now?

Well now... I smell a little Libertarian cooking under the surface of Thomas Crowne!

Echelon, Comrade, I like you, but dude... the socialist experiment has failed. I don't know what happy-weed your teachers are passing around, but the day of the socialist is gone.

However, we've seen a rather interesting accidental experiment in capitalist greed haven't we? The past five years has seen the most rampant, unchecked greed in history. And what happened?

Well... put aside the bad stuff for a moment. The stock market went orbital. People had jobs. Education was humming, Taxes were tolerable (especially at the local level). Social services were up (NYC was so happy with itself, it passed a law guaranteeing housing for every homeless person). Cultural institutions experienced windfalls. Quality of life buzzed.

Now... back to the bad stuff. It was all built on a house of ethical cards. Insider deals, backstabbing, shady accounting, and illegal corporate maneuvering caused the biggest market crash ever... trillions of dollars vanished.

But what have we learned? The market matters. Tax cuts are band aids. Rate cutes are cotton swabs. We need aggressive new laws and accounting to restore the average person's confidence in the market again. Nothing will get significantly better until that happens.... or... until people forget what happened, and greed takes over again (more likely).

Sad but true.

Altruism is a fine trait. Realism puts food on the table and educates your kids.

Back to the issue... taxes and tax cuts.

Thomas, dude, trying scraping together enough to get by living in Manhattan! Yikes! New York taxes, New York City taxes, and Federal taxes... damn. But... the chinese food on delivery in 10 minutes is awesome... so we do what we have to do.

Originally posted by Abraham Virtue
Yo!!!!!

What are you doin????

We don't want tax cuts!!!!!!

Can't you see that people need jobs first????

This country is pissed.

No one is happy with these tax cuts, and everyone has someone to blame.

What else is new right???

The people want more than just kickbacks, they want justice.

Give our people more constructive operations to boost the economy. Money back does nothing when the money is just taken back by another taxer.

The cycle never ends.

People need to wake up.

People need to get real.


Abe

What fat Cats are you refering, the House or the Senate? Because if you want to hit the FatCats, you have to start there. Your post reads as if we are breaking our government with this puny tax cut. How many times do I have to throw out the numbers 128 trillion over 10 years for the fed's budget? How many times do we compare 350 billion to 128 trillion both over 10 years? I could see your point if we were cutting the budget in half but its less than 1/128. How many times must we throw out the amount of waste, 73 cent of each dollar, that could be cut in Washington? How many times must we look at the basic economic theory of a capitalistic economy and why rasing taxes hurts the job market? How many times must we explain how almost a decade of targeting private industry and business with double taxes unjust law suits has more bearing on the un-employment rate than does lack of government programs? If there's one thing we have no shortage of in the US, its government programs. How many times must we look back just 5 years ago to the laxed laws that allowed businesses to report more earnings than they were really bringing in and how that economy was built on imaginary money? Greenspan was saying it as early as 1997 and everyone who knew how the economy works knew what was coming, even a staunch democrat like myself. How many times must we look unsuccesfully for a link between a rich government and a rich job market? How many times must we wake up and realize just who hires people and what it would be like if they decided it wasn't worth it to try?

1.Raise the minimum wage.
2.Provide unemployed with health coverage.
3. Quit paying CEO's millions of dollars in bonuses
when they lay off thousands upon thousands of workers
4.Raise the minimum wage.
5. Did I mention raise the minimum wage?
6.Bring the cost of auto and health insurance down.
7. Why should families have to work 2 or more jobs to make their house payment?
8.Institute the death penalty for all crimes committed with firearms.

Originally posted by groingrinder
1.Raise the minimum wage.
2.Provide unemployed with health coverage.
3. Quit paying CEO's millions of dollars in bonuses
when they lay off thousands upon thousands of workers
4.Raise the minimum wage.
5. Did I mention raise the minimum wage?
6.Bring the cost of auto and health insurance down.
7. Why should families have to work 2 or more jobs to make their house payment?
8.Institute the death penalty for all crimes committed with firearms.

I agree with all of these points however, the only way to fund these ventures is to gain from a rubust tax base. In a capitalist economy, the pump must be primed from time to time. These are arguments for the government to consider when the economy is on the incline side of the curve and been that way for a couple of years.

1.Raise the minimum wage.
In reality, this does very little to the economy. Minimum wage workers tend not to be an important part of the vaste consumer economy... sad but true. While I agree the current MW is too low, this is not part of the solution.

2.Provide unemployed with health coverage.
The cost of healthcare is a uniquely complex problem. This idea, without any other changes, would only end up increasing the cost of healthcare for everyone else.

3. Quit paying CEO's millions of dollars in bonuses
Again, not really part of the problem, only an "unfair" public perception. CEO's of public corporations are compensated based on financial performance, a realist and fair way to compensate leaders of public companies. You must remember that the charter of public coporations is not to provide people employment, but to make money for stock holders. Harsh reality, but being realistic solves problems. If a corporate governance discovers waste and inefficient processes, people will get laid off. If a corporation is in financial distress, for whatever reason, people will get laid off. And bonuses can still be tied to how much money is saved not made. Look to stockholders for satisfactions with CEO's, not public outcry about their wages.

4.Raise the minimum wage.
5. Did I mention raise the minimum wage?
Did I mention it will do very little?

6.Bring the cost of auto and health insurance down.
How? As it is, insurance companies are operating with low profits and sometimes losses. A blanket statement like this does no good. How will these companies continue to operate if they simply lower their rates?

7. Why should families have to work 2 or more jobs to make their house payment?
Because they bought a house outside their means? Again, sorry to sound harsh, but this is very often a problem. With good intentions of getting a nice place in the right neighborhood, people very often extend themselves too far. This is a side-effect of the problem.

8.Institute the death penalty for all crimes committed with firearms.
While I support the death penalty, I have no idea what this is doing in a discussion about the economy.


Among the deepest of our problems are two things;

1- A reduction in importantce of education/intelligence Just look to our public schools, smart kids have never been "cool" and today it's worse than ever... especially among males.

2- An attitude of entitlement Your points portray this attitude. You feel you should have lower rates, more healthcare, and higher wages. Why? Because you should? What's wrong with working harder in school, then at work to improve yourself so you deserve the better job with better pay?

Anyway... that's my beef.

very intereresting commonality
you all paint a bleak future

I don't feel it's a bleak future at all. In fact, all these entitlement programs will likely be funded to the hilt(as if they aren't already) in the future by the tax revenue this cut will build. I know we on here like to pretend that we don't know for sure if this cut will bring the desired outcome but the fact is in our economic climate, it has proven true several times in just the last 50 years and according to our economic discipline studies, its a valid and proven technique which yeilds the kinds of huge taxe moneys our government has grown fat upon. My point is, if the government is having trouble funding their pet projects, lets do something about the 73% waste factor before we tax the revenue builders right out of the revenue building business.

Originally posted by William
1.Raise the minimum wage.
In reality, this does very little to the economy. Minimum wage workers tend not to be an important part of the vaste consumer economy... sad but true. While I agree the current MW is too low, this is not part of the solution.

2.Provide unemployed with health coverage.
The cost of healthcare is a uniquely complex problem. This idea, without any other changes, would only end up increasing the cost of healthcare for everyone else.

3. Quit paying CEO's millions of dollars in bonuses
Again, not really part of the problem, only an "unfair" public perception. CEO's of public corporations are compensated based on financial performance, a realist and fair way to compensate leaders of public companies. You must remember that the charter of public coporations is not to provide people employment, but to make money for stock holders. Harsh reality, but being realistic solves problems. If a corporate governance discovers waste and inefficient processes, people will get laid off. If a corporation is in financial distress, for whatever reason, people will get laid off. And bonuses can still be tied to how much money is saved not made. Look to stockholders for satisfactions with CEO's, not public outcry about their wages.

4.Raise the minimum wage.
5. Did I mention raise the minimum wage?
Did I mention it will do very little?

6.Bring the cost of auto and health insurance down.
How? As it is, insurance companies are operating with low profits and sometimes losses. A blanket statement like this does no good. How will these companies continue to operate if they simply lower their rates?

7. Why should families have to work 2 or more jobs to make their house payment?
Because they bought a house outside their means? Again, sorry to sound harsh, but this is very often a problem. With good intentions of getting a nice place in the right neighborhood, people very often extend themselves too far. This is a side-effect of the problem.

8.Institute the death penalty for all crimes committed with firearms.
While I support the death penalty, I have no idea what this is doing in a discussion about the economy.


Among the deepest of our problems are two things;

1- A reduction in importantce of education/intelligence Just look to our public schools, smart kids have never been "cool" and today it's worse than ever... especially among males.

2- An attitude of entitlement Your points portray this attitude. You feel you should have lower rates, more healthcare, and higher wages. Why? Because you should? What's wrong with working harder in school, then at work to improve yourself so you deserve the better job with better pay?

Anyway... that's my beef.

Ok you shot my little post full of holes. But I will stand my ground on the last one about the death penalty. It will save much money in the long run when we do not have to house these criminals for years in prison, pay for their illegitimate children on welfare, or pay for increased law enforcement to keep an eye on them.

I will say that paying taxes should entitle someone to expect certain things of the entities doing the taxing. Healthcare is not too much to expect from a country that throws much money away on foreign countries.

I would also legalize marijuana and psilocybin and free everyone in jail on possesion charges. Not only will that save on housing these folks in prison, it would take billions of dollars out of the hands of criminal enterprises and free up valuable law enforcement resources for actual crime.

I will also not change my opinion on the corporate greed either.

I cannot help but feel that the economy is healthiest when money circulates freely and stagnates when money stops circulating. The fat cats at the top are not gonna circulate the millions of dollars they get for bonuses, but the layed off workers would circulate lots of money when they pay their mortgages, buy groceries, pay for health care,insurance, etc. Just because something is "the way that it is" does not make it proper or moral. ( referring to the corporations only existing to make money for stockholders)

Originally posted by groingrinder
I will say that paying taxes should entitle someone to expect certain things of the entities doing the taxing.

And here is the problem, you have been taught to expect things from your government. What's wrong with the government doing less, and us doing more? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that how it was before the healthcare crisis?

I would also legalize marijuana and psilocybin and free everyone in jail on possesion charges.

Something that on the surface feels right to many, in reality is the wrong response. You cry for morality in the corporate space, but then seem to give up on morality when considering drug use. Our society's stance against drugs is not the wrong stance, it just needs to be consistant.

I will also not change my opinion on the corporate greed either.

No society has been without greed at the top, and no society ever will be. However, I feel our current system understands this, and has the best checks-and-balances in place so far. The future will certainly show us better ways... we just haven't thought of them yet.

I cannot help but feel that the economy is healthiest when money circulates freely and stagnates when money stops circulating.

Actually, this isn't completely true. While the supply-side/consumer/service sectors of the economy (which are an important part) rely on the flow of goods and services, a very important "quiet" side is finance/banking. The finance side relies on everyone from the factory worker to the "fat cats" taking major portions of cash out of that flow for investment in growth or retirement. And on the growth side is where the "fat cats" place their cash... they hedge bets through venture capital firms on "the next big thing" to come along. Unfortunately, within our current system, for the long term growth, we need the fat cats.