The Backstory to the Russia-Ukraine Confrontation: The U.S. and NATO Encirclement of Russia

reply to post by TritonTaranis


You are right that Russia is no match for NATO, but you are wrong that Russia wouldn't give NATO a fight anyway.

If a country thinks it is morally right, (regardless of if they are or are not) they will still fight, and die, if need be.

You are also right that majority of Western Ukraine (the bigger part of Ukraine) wants to go to EU. But you are wrong in assumption it will work out. Bankruptcy of EU is now just a matter of time.

Hey, do you want to join a club of poor bums, sure you do, but will you like it 5 years down the road.

The debt my friend, the debt will be the end of us all.

It really seems like people think Russia is some kind of "John Wayne", go ask a Russian what they think about the Ukraine situation... oh yea you can't they don't have a right to free speech. This is a huge conspiracy to take our rights, id take Obama over Putin for the simple reason he will be gone in 2 years while Putin will more than possibly, soon reinstate himself as Dictator of the New Russian Alliance.
People hate Obama so much that they have become sick of our whole country, now do you think young men are going to go if we are drafted...NO. Our country has been turned in on itself, it ain't 1935 we are not a proud unified nation, we have been divided socially and economically into sub-citizen categories. Half of you wouldn't trust your neighbor to watch your dog let alone watch your back in a firefight.
Our government has been poisoned, and the poison has drained all the way into the hearts and minds of our children. We are the Romans drinking lead water, before we go out to watch people sacrifice themselves in an arena to false gods while we drink strong drinks till we pass out and choke on our own vomit.
We have been having cold wars in space with Russia for a while now, im sure there is A LOT more to this.

ZincMag
reply to post by TritonTaranis

 

You are right that Russia is no match for NATO, but you are wrong that Russia wouldn't give NATO a fight anyway.

If a country thinks it is morally right, (regardless of if they are or are not) they will still fight, and die, if need be.

You are also right that majority of Western Ukraine (the bigger part of Ukraine) wants to go to EU. But you are wrong in assumption it will work out. Bankruptcy of EU is now just a matter of time.

Hey, do you want to join a club of poor bums, sure you do, but will you like it 5 years down the road.

The debt my friend, the debt will be the end of us all.

It's a world economy... if one goes they all go, if Europe goes under the effects are then burdened onto the economy which relied upon it since all economy's are linked,

Russia has a resource based economy whose going to buy it? What happens when the EU step up there shall gas programmes? Does Russia turn back to selling fur coats and vodka?

China has a debt based economy whose going to pay it when the world economy collapses and china finds herself with the biggest bubble the world has ever seen looming over her head about to go bang ?

With the current state of Russia and the current state of Europe and the west.. Ukraine is still better of In Europe than Russia or anywhere else in the world, for Ukraine it's still a better option than being stuck in the middle or going East who are losing on every front of its rivalry with the west

The EU can bring jobs and infrastructure to Ukraine with its attractive cheap labour bringing big business benefits... Russia can only milk it for expansion and strategic purposes to rival the west

Sure Russia has enough military power to bloody NATOs nose in the opening hours to any theoretical conflict, but I think it's obvious a bloody nose is expected in any fight with any conventional army...

Willtell
I think what is happening is that now, after the Arab Spring season of NATO and US destruction of Arab governments they don’t like, we are having a Russian Spring that may turn into a return to world-wide cold-war that will eventually bring a hot real WWIII.

As you can see the Middle East is a pretty split and unstable place with Sunni and Shiites fighting for control rather than NATO and the US



Notice Assads government in Syria is a minority in power

Notice Iran is a Shiite majority in power allied to Syria's minority and Russia

Notice Iraq is nearly 50/50 and has been in the midst of a horrible civil war for nearly a decade

Notice turkey is predominantly Sunni and a part of NATO

Notice Saudi Arabia is a Sunni majority and a close Allie to the west doing billions each year in arms sales

Conclusion

The Middle East is in the midst of a war between Shiite and Sunni Muslims

Russia & China backs and supports the Shiites

The West backs and supports the Sunnis

It's about time people opened there eyes and stop parring of the blame on the West and the US

So what do we get out of all this? Capitalism called communism? Or Communism called Capitalism. Honestly, I fear for war because I am not ready for it. I'm sure no one is. Over here it is China who threatens us with war. I hope all is well with the Ukrainians and the Russians. I'm a mild hater of the American government so forgive me

Scotland is considering an Independence Referendum. No one is attacking the proposed Scottish Independence Referendum.

If the Scottish people have a right to vote on their independence, then, the people of the Crimea should also have that right.

If the majority of Crimeans vote to have Crimea become a part of Russia, why should we object to the democratic will of the people of Crimea?

Please note: prior to 1954 Crimea was part of Russia. On February 19, 1954 Russia transferred Crimea to the Ukraine--hence, we really should not be surprised at the presence of a large Russian population in Crimea.


Crimea is not worth a new Cold War (nor World war III).
The previous Cold War was a TREMENDOUS WASTE of human resources (think of the insane amounts of money spent by East and West during the Cold War--money wasted on nuclear missiles and the military instead of using that money to lower taxes and/or spent to improve the lives of their citizens).

If Russia became evil again (i.e., "Soviet style evil"), then, yes, that would justify a new Cold War--but Crimea does not come close to "Soviet style evil"--Crimea IS NOT worth a new Cold War.
America shares a great bond with Russia (we are both democratic, free market nations, and share the same cultural origins).

The Russian people are our friends, we have been living with them as friends as part of the new Internet-connected world since the 1990's--let us not go back to the Cold War.

reply to post by TritonTaranis


Points:

Nothing is black and white. No side is pure and no side is completely evil.

There is no doubt the US has caused misery in the Middle East in which it didn’t have to do. That’s just a fact.

Weighing all the info, it seems to me the US with al its power is abusing it.

Iraq wasn't in the bad shape it's in before the US invaded.

Most of the Middle East except Turkey and maybe Iran (though the US CIA overturned an Iranian election and put in the Shah) were colonized countries. In other words they just got their freedom fairly recently.

Libya is in worst shape than before the so-called revolution that NATO backed and supported with arms and bombing.

True the ME countries have their own problems THAT'S WHY THE US SHOULD DO THE RIGHT THING!

One more thing:
The US criticized the Egyptians for overthrowing an elected government in Morsi and the MB, why does it justify the overthrowing of the elected Ukrainian government?

Flatcoat
reply to post by rock427

 

So, only 135,000 dead....to get one bad guy....acceptable losses huh?

Those having lack of EMPATHY are full of EVILNESS..............heard somewhere on the tv.

Even if 135K dead, 500K maimed and cripped and 1 million displaced...............it's all right for those who are EVIL 'cause EVILNESS thrives on the misries of others.

Why don't we hear about teenagers walking into kindergardens and shooting dead 20+ kids............in other parts of the world.

TritonTaranis

Yusomad
reply to post by rock427

 

Your responses dont seem to make much sense, you say the world is more stable? Guess your basement may be, but if you keep up with current events, theres worldwide economical problems, 2 proxi-profit wars (afghan & iraq)going on, and if we are to trust most people here WW3 incoming. I suggest you take a look at some history books, and let go off the kool aid, the US has never been a peacekeeper, just so you are free from that fallacy.

The US has probably contributed a 1000 times more troops than Russia or China ever has on peacekeeping missions

Hell even Ukraine has more troops on peace keeping duties than Russia

Says it all ...

WTF? So you pick countries where russian is not peace keeping? What about including countries that Russia "IS" peace keeping in. I hear russia has quite a few peace keepings in Crimea right now

reply to post by benrl


We can poke the bear, because the bear is not the same bear, it is a cub in the shadow of the bear when the Warsaw Pact was a threat, people remember this but Russia regardless of how much it is talked up, is no match for the United States military period, name the last real practice or training in the 21st century the Bear or any other of those symbolic animals like China has had? they do not study war enough in real situations to come close, practice and training are two completely different things, I am convinced the United States in a real large scale war will own any adversary , a Nuke will have to be invoked to change that outcome.

phinubian
reply to post by benrl

 

We can poke the bear, because the bear is not the same bear, it is a cub in the shadow of the bear when the Warsaw Pact was a threat, people remember this but Russia regardless of how much it is talked up, is no match for the United States military period, name the last real practice or training in the 21st century the Bear or any other of those symbolic animals like China has had? they do not study war enough in real situations to come close, practice and training are two completely different things, I am convinced the United States in a real large scale war will own any adversary , a Nuke will have to be invoked to change that outcome.

edit on 16-3-2014 by phinubian because: (no reason given)

True true, america has had alot of practice lately in quite a few minor wars, but thats not to say Russia hasnt had any. They had a minor practice when attacked by Georigian Forces in 2008 and managed to come out on top although it did expose some weakness ie in the area of modern recon.

reply to post by GoldKnight

If the Scottish people have a right to vote on their independence, then, the people of the Crimea should also have that right.

Except that Scotland is a country, unlike Crimea which is merely an area of Ukraine.

And the vote in that area isn't for independence but to welcome annexation by it's far bigger and stronger neighbour, whose troops and tanks are already established there - without invitation by Ukraine - and who have taken the liberty of installing a puppet local governor.

I know you want to avoid confrontation because we all know where that could lead if not handled with adequate diplomacy.

But it doesn't help to turn a blind eye to the problem by minimising it.

The truth will always out.

reply to post by MrSpad

NATO can not make a nation join. In fact NATO expansion was never a sure thing but, the fact that the former Warsaw Pact states lobbied so hard for it made it happen. NATOs expansion has come from nations that have all been on the recieving end of Russia occupation and domination. That those nations are rushed to meet NATOs standards so that they could joing is no suprise. That Macedonia, Montenegro, Georgia and Bosnia have all been making major push to get in is also no supprise.

You make me laugh when i read such replies of someone whatever its you or anyone else defending NATO's positions.

That Macedonia, Montenegro, Georgia and Bosnia have all been making major push to get in is also no supprise.

The majority of the population dont want to be part of NATO ironic u mentioned Macedonia,Bosnia,Georgia both of the same countries are facing economic hardships and joining the EU will not change that.

NATOs expansion has come from nations that have all been on the recieving end of Russia occupation and domination

Thats where u wrong lol Russia's occupation and domination? and whats NATO doing now in Europe?

Meanwhile..the situation in Ukraine ...

Willtell

Intelligent people understand that perspective is everything. This forum is about “WWIII" and I hope how to prevent it. I don’t think we are dealing with what country is the best or who is the richest or what alliance is the better. The point is that the so called wonderful western NATO alliance is seemingly always the one in modern times getting the world in wars all over the globe.

And If I remember correctly it was Russia that not only was probably the reason the German empire was defeated in WWII but they had millions of casualties to their citizens not the US.

We're dealing with the fragile situation where powerful groups ganging up on one particular group can cause WWIII.

Were dealing with what President Eisenhower warned against…that is the military industrial complex that is a self perpetuating war machine that doesn’t foster peace in the world but its opposite…war.

The Soviets also signed a non-hostility pact with Hitler. They could have limited ALL The casualties by joining the initial fight as it would have prevented Hitler from deploying most of his resources West. Being complaisant and allowing the Nazi war machine to capitalize on it's victories was a HUGE reason why the Soviets ended up taking so many casualties. Granted, it was the T-34 that turned the tied for the Soviets but Stalingrad is a prime example of Stalin throwing bodies and Germans with no remorse. Millions were killed without even a gun. They were sent and expected to pick up weapons from other fallen soldiers.

Agent_USA_Supporter
reply to post by MrSpad

 

NATO can not make a nation join. In fact NATO expansion was never a sure thing but, the fact that the former Warsaw Pact states lobbied so hard for it made it happen. NATOs expansion has come from nations that have all been on the recieving end of Russia occupation and domination. That those nations are rushed to meet NATOs standards so that they could joing is no suprise. That Macedonia, Montenegro, Georgia and Bosnia have all been making major push to get in is also no supprise.

You make me laugh when i read such replies of someone whatever its you or anyone else defending NATO's positions.

That Macedonia, Montenegro, Georgia and Bosnia have all been making major push to get in is also no supprise.

The majority of the population dont want to be part of NATO ironic u mentioned Macedonia,Bosnia,Georgia both of the same countries are facing economic hardships and joining the EU will not change that.

NATOs expansion has come from nations that have all been on the recieving end of Russia occupation and domination

Thats where u wrong lol Russia's occupation and domination? and whats NATO doing now in Europe?

Nations such as Georgia and Ukraine have applied for NATO membership every since the fall of the Soviet Union. It was NATO that declined their acceptance as it would be a direct threat to Russian boarders. Poland and Turkey were accepted as it did not share a direct boarder with Russia but were previously threatened by Russian expansionism.

This is the same old crap that has been going on forever and ever.

In the "old days", a bunch of zealots called knights among many other supposedly honorable names and terms, would ride in on their horses and bring armies to take resources from the indigenous population, and cram their hoo hah religious beliefs down their throats in order to get them to think in the same flawed fashion the people of their country or church do to make stealing and shipping those resources more efficient.

The same thing happens today, the only difference being that they want to secure resources and control the price and availability of them, and/or control shipping routes for resources to sell to markets locally or ship to other companies, specifically, pipelines and shipping lanes.

These things Absolutely always are mentioned in most news articles near the backside of the story.

Smoke and mirrors, the man behind the curtain, THE BANKS!.

Banks? you ask?,...........

Who else has the control over the base resources available to pull these shenanigans?.

I do agree that Putin treats his country as a fiefdom, enriching his cronies and himself as he goes. At the same time, as an American, I am alarmed at how quickly we stick our nose into areas around the world with historical underpinnings that date back long before our constitution was ratified. While I don't claim to know our nation's interests, I can't imagine they are strong enough to risk another cold war or worse. When I see Kerry and Obama making these dire statements about "consequences" for what Russia is doing, I wonder what the hell does this whole thing really mean to the average struggling American? ptbinjurylaw.com...

reply to post by Willtell


I think in general you are correct. Your hypothesis holds true for Syria and Iran possibly too. Whenever I see the clamoring for support of rebels or for attacking Syria, I think "ah, they are trying to topple Russian allies and strongholds in a domino fashion. Iran next. Now it looks like Ukraine came before those. I didn't expect that but the basic idea holds true. Knock out a country with a key Russian military port and in this case, right on the border of Russia.

see. you ALMOST get it. Getting russia into WWIII right now is the PERFECT time in history! Who cares about NATO? the U.S. Doesn't need NATO! Duh. Cranking the US War Machine up to 11 and letting it loose on the Russians? Nows the time! Our guys are all trained up. We have the B-37B space bomber. We have LASERS that we can hook up the the reactors on our aircraft carriers. we have thousands of vehicles that are armoured up and blast resistant and ready to turn Europe into a pool of blood and rotting organs. We have the b1, b2, b52, f22, f35, nuclear powered subs, nuclear powered carriers, the m1a2 abrams, the US MARINE CORP and a very deep desire to EXTERMINATE every single living russian. Now that's the kind of party we can all enjoy. Wanna see what a real War Machine looks like? (Not this stupid sensless crap we did in A-stan and Iraq) but FULL BLOWN warfare? Sign me up. I'll go. I been staying in shape. Besides. my back is killing me. If I take just ONE russian with me? my life was worth living. anyway. it will never happen. because the only people more cowardly than King Oh-boo-boo and his staff? The JCS. Want proof? under they're leadership, the mujahideen were able to pin our troops down for 10 years and pull a viet cong on them. thanks JCS. Maybe you guys should read up on Honor, Courage and Comitment, instead of being sensitive to the needs of your polical masters. Using our mothers and fathers and sons and daughters because you think one political party or the other may gain based on who's in the white house or congress or senate is DESPICABLE! Your supposed to be officers. your supposed to be the professionals. your supposed to be the gate keepers that keep the suits from doing something STUPID. It's supposed to be your jobs as officers to look out for your troops. You failed. Putting all our dead at your feet is what you deserve.

But yeah, our guys versus the rest of the world? let the butchering begin. and remember, when all else fails? there's always the NUKES.