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Originally posted by thelibra
Well, I've got a rough timeline so far, and the earliest traces I've managed to find to date are from ziggurats in the plains of Sumeria.
Since the same symbol was used in American indigenous cultures long before Columbus discovered the "new world"
this symbol could likely be some evidence to peoples migration along the southern coasts of Asia, up the eastern coast, and across an ice bridge to North America, then back down south along the west coast to warmer climates.
Originally posted by Byrd
Fascinating! And the followup is interesting, too. I believe that once it left Greece (if my vauge memory serves, here) didn't it become part of the alchemical tradition?
Originally posted by Byrd
I know there are petroglyphs and pictographs of snakes (shamanic helpers) but I'm not aware of any that match the ouroborous. I do know they did draw circles, but those that I've seen (I like petroglyphs and pictographs and geoglyphs) were sun related, according to ethnographic sources.
Could you point me to those?
Originally posted by Byrd
Mmm, your theory is gong to run into some real problems with dating at this point. The Sumerian civilizations are around 3,000 BC (about the same age as the Egyptian ones), which is about the same time as the rise of the proto-Olmec civilizations in Central America.
"It has a solid central tower, one furlong square, with a second erected on top of it and then a third, and so on up to eight. All eight towers can
be climbed by a spiral way running around the outside, and about halfway up there are seats for those who make the journey to rest on."
"And he gave to the world the figure which was suitable and also natural. Now to the animal which was to comprehend all animals, that figure was suitable which comprehends within itself all other figures. Wherefore he made the world in the form of a globe, round as from a lathe, having its extremes in every direction equidistant from the centre, the most perfect and the most like itself of all figures; for he considered that the like is infinitely fairer than the unlike. This he finished off, making the surface smooth all around for many reasons; in the first place, because the living being had no need of eyes when there was nothing remaining outside him to be seen; nor of ears when there was nothing to be heard; and there was no surrounding atmosphere to be breathed; nor would there have been any use of organs by the help of which he might receive his food or get rid of what he had already digested, since there was nothing which went from him or came into him: for there was nothing beside him. Of design he was created thus, his own waste providing his own food, and all that he did or suffered taking place in and by himself. For the Creator conceived that a being which was self-sufficient would be far more excellent than one which lacked anything; and, as he had no need to take anything or defend himself against any one, the Creator did not think it necessary to bestow upon him hands: nor had he any need of feet, nor of the whole apparatus of walking; but the movement suited to his spherical form was assigned to him, being of all the seven that which is most appropriate to mind and intelligence; and he was made to move in the same manner and on the same spot, within his own limits revolving in a circle.
Originally posted by Byrd
North America is, by that time, fairly well covered with Native American groups...(snip)...as early as 20,000 years...(snip)...(or)...50,000 years ago.
Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Well obviously you know that it is a Gnostic Symbol right? Eating its own tail = "Infinity". The Serpent in General is a Gnostic Symbol. It Symbolizes Knowledge & Wisdom - for the more Ignorant & Superstitious among us this means that it is an "Evil Satanic" symbol.
Originally posted by thelibra
As a matter of fact, it did, largely by Hermes Trismegistus.
Ah, here is one such source, commonly seen in several Aztec and Toltec ruins.
It is important to know as well, the full story of Quetzalcoatl.
Originally posted by Byrd
Actually, yes and no... the more advanced versions of Ziggurats (and cultures) DID start around 3,000 BC. However, the original Tower of Babylon (referenced in Genesis 11), as can best be estimated, would have existed somewhere between 3,500-5,000 BC, because of the specific reference to "Baked Brick" and "Bitumen" both of which were very expensive, new technology at the time.
Now, Herodotus (also from Greece) actually visited the ruins of the rebuilt tower (completed around 490BC by Nebuchadnezzar), writing about it in 440 BC:
Hermes Trismegistus, to which the symbol is most widely attributed, and considered to be the father of Alchemy, wrote most of his works around 300 BC.
Soo... this is what my evidence points to thus far:
- The original Tower of Babylon existed, at best estimates, somewhere between 5000-3500 BC, judging from the technological achievments, capabilities, and economic knowledge of the time, as well as references to events and other places.
- 3500 BC - Oldest Ouroboros style image that I'm currently aware of.
- Starting around 2000-1500 BC, the Tower of Babylon began to be rebuilt by various peoples till around 500 BC.
- Herodotus, the Greek historian, visits the last incarnation of the Tower of Babylon and writes his 440 BC description of it.
- Ouroboros appears in Plato's Tim�us (360 BC). It describes an Ouroboros of seven parts.
- Hermes Trismegistus writes his works in 300 BC.
- Toltec era in South America 800-1200 AD. A glyph of Quetzalcoatl (the feathered serpent), is shown as a snake biting its own tail, divided into seven parts.
HOWEVER... I do feel it important to note that throughout Polynesian islands from the East Asian coast to the West American costs, as well as native American Indian tribes, there are stories that very closely mirror that of the Tower of Babylon, some even referencing an actual Tower.
Originally posted by Byrd
(note for others - we are keeping in mind here that Hermes Trismegistus is actually a Dark Ages/medieval alchemy text that is SUPPOSEDLY authored by an ancient Greek. It's clearly a forgery of an alchemist -- but an excellent reference for what they thought and how they proceeded. Just don't make the mistake of thinking it's over 2,000 years old, okay?)
Originally posted by Byrd
Mmmkaly... yes, those are about 2,000-3,000 years old... but by that time the Native Americans had been over here for up to 15,000-45,000 years. Stylistically and functionally it's very different than the European ones.
Originally posted by Byrd
RE: the full story of Quetzalcoatl....
Interesting, and fairly well researched though I am just a *tad* skeptical about some of the mythos. But overall, an excellent article (recommend it to the rest of you browsers!)
Originally posted by Byrd
RE: (Ziggurats, Baked Brick, and Bitumen)
Source? I'm mostly curious here because my Biblical Archaeology text doesn't mention this... however, the text is pre-1950!
Originally posted by Byrd
Ah, dear old Herodotus! What a wonderful gossip! However, do take it with a bit of a grain of salt... remember he also wrote about people in Africa who had no heads and rather... misdescribed the Festival of Bast. Given some of his reports that have later been corrected by modern research, I picture him as the eternal tourist, who was just "set up" by the locals because he'd pay them money to show him wonders.
Originally posted by Byrd
In either case, I like his description. Did he REALLY describe it as "the tower of Babel" though (inquiring minds are taking a break from writing papers and have no clue right now)?
Originally posted by Byrd
I think that Plato's concept sounds like an egg. And yes, by the time of Socrates and Plato, the Greeks had known that the Earth was a sphere for many many years (century or more.)
Originally posted by Byrd(RE: The works of Hermes Trismegistus bring written around 300 AD)...
My sources say it's actually an older fiction that was SUPPOSED to be written then. However -- I haven't done an exhaustive resarch of it. What have you found (provenance) that counters my original information?
Originally posted by Byrd
(RE: the possible link to the Tower of Babylon and Ouroboros)
I don't think that there's a link there. The date of the symol appearing in the Toltec/Aztec civilization is far too late to have been influenced by the other,
Originally posted by Byrd
and there's no evidence of people crossing the Atlantic or Pacific who might have had the symbol...
Originally posted by Byrd
"Kennewick Man" (arguably a Caucasian) is dated to 12,000-13,000 years and there are no ourouboros symbols in the rock art or the pottery down the California coast or in the Pueblos.
Originally posted by Byrd
(RE: throughout Polynesian islands from the East Asian coast to the West American costs, as well as native American Indian tribes, there are stories that very closely mirror that of the Tower of Babylon, some even referencing an actual Tower.)
Sources? I'm not as familiar with Pacific Rim mythology... and I haven't really seen anything in Native American mythology that I thought mirrored it. I love folklore, though, and would appreciate being pointed to tales.
Originally posted by Byrd
Will write more later (I've got a term paper due), but I would point out that Castaneda has been very thoroughly discredited. He fabricated his original research, apparently, and has been lambasted in many places for his academic opportunism and bad scholarship.
Don't have direct links, but I am not sure I'd trust Castaneda's report without supporting evidence.