Ukraine, Crimea ,Russia - What can or should be done ?

Not a lot. Not in the short term .
About 80 percent of Russian gas exports to Europe pass through Ukraine. Europe depends on Russia for 40 percent of its imported fuel. So Europe , NATO, the United Sates can and will do nothing against Russia, nothing real. Just talk tough.

The world needs to focus on long term goals of ending Russia's power. Developing other sources of gas from other nations. And investing in power from Thorium.

reply to post by jdoors


Hey jdoors!
You will notice that none of this is being discussed on msm!
Of course there is more going on, than what they are telling us.
S&F
jacy

reply to post by jdoors

The world needs to focus on long term goals of ending Russia's power.

I can agree that we need to find better energy solutions and such, but I think this statement is an example of why we have the problems we have these days.

We're too worried about other people, other nations, and the "power" they have. How about we mind our own business and stop playing this dangerous game of politics, war and money?

Send in Special Forces & blow-up every pipeline from Russia into Ukraine - Putin would be broke in no time. They send 5 million barrels per day to Europe at $100 a barrel - it adds real quick.

BABYBULL24
Send in Special Forces & blow-up every pipeline from Russia into Ukraine - Putin would be broke in no time. They send 5 million barrels per day to Europe at $100 a barrel - it adds real quick.

And then suddenly the EU doesn't have enough gas/oil supplies, and the cost of gas at the pumps, over here as well, goes way up.
Bad idea.

Easy.

Position a joint NATO task force in western ukraine. Fully allowed if Ukraine are willing. That will stop putin from advanceing further as theres no way he could win.

Have the conditions that Ukraine will only get the forces if the withdraw there troops temporarly from Crimea.


Then enter talks for a UN monitered referendem to decide if the crimea and parts of east Ukraine want want to stay Ukrainian or join Russia.

Question is

Why should anything be done?

Why can't we let these two countries settle their differences one on one?

I believe that the power of a government stems from the people and that it is only valid when the people consent to be governed by that government. If there an entire region of the Ukraine that overwhelmingly does not consent to be governed by the newly established Ukrainian government, then they have the right to secede in my view.

And if they are majority ethnically Russian to the point where upwards of 80 and 90% of them speak Russian as a first language, then I do believe that Putin reasonably views them as his brothers and sisters and is doing something about what many in Crimea see as an illegitimate government

It is clear that the people of Crimea, by and largely, do not want to be part of the new Ukraine and that they fully support the Russian soldiers in the area that are holding the Ukrainian soldier in their bases.

My solution is to simply let Crimea go and form whatever nation or alliance that they wish.

Now, if the military expansion goes beyond Crimea into territory that is dominated by Ukrainian supporters, then that is going to be a real issue.

I would also like to comment that while I view Putin, a former KGB agent, as highly likely to be quite an evil and severe man, I also respect his dedication to what he views as his people and would comment that if the leaders of the United States had a similar dedication, then this nation would be a very different place.

muse7
Question is

Why should anything be done?

Why can't we let these two countries settle their differences one on one?

^^^
This.

And as a bonus, why not let Crimea decide on its own sovereignty?

Meddling in this conflict will only make matters worse.

reply to post by Cathcart


I can see why people might feel this way, and yet you are working with the assumption that Crimea gets a choice in the matter if Russia is left to their devices. Russia is a much larger force and without really knowing if Crimea actually has an opinion in the matter how can you make a decision? I like the idea of leaving a country to decide their own fate in an ideal world but in the real world, changes happen in smaller countries as the result of the actions of larger countries and the outcome is often misconstrued to be appropriate for the people when in fact the people of the area had little to no say in the matter.

I mean, we tried that "keep out nose out of their business" tactic with Germany and that obviously didn't turn out too well.

Ideally this would eventually work itself out and truthfully I think if left to their own devices the outcome would likely be an annexed portion of Ukraine returning to Russia's borders on the map but I doubt Putin would do anything beyond that. That being said. What if I'm wrong and he see's that as a welcome mat to look beyond Ukraine to extend his reach. It could be a huge issue or it could just be a riot that got out of control as the result of destabilization caused by the west which I don't like but I understand the motives behind politically. Russia #ed with the U.S. in their effots to destabilize and invade Syria to slow the U.S. progression as far as taking control of the the Middle Eastern resources. As a result, the U.S. decided to # with Russia in return. The truth is neither country have any real claim to either country they are invading although I will say that Russia has more of a claim on Ukraine (what with some of their population being predominatly Russian culture/language wise) then the U.S. had for invading Syria though. Both countries are just being dicks to get what they want/need for their country resource wise though when they should just find ways to deal with their own problems without having to use someone elses resources.

GrimReaper86
I can see why people might feel this way, and yet you are working with the assumption that Crimea gets a choice in the matter if Russia is left to their devices. Russia is a much larger force and without really knowing if Crimea actually has an opinion in the matter how can you make a decision? I like the idea of leaving a country to decide their own fate in an ideal world but in the real world, changes happen in smaller countries as the result of the actions of larger countries and the outcome is often misconstrued to be appropriate for the people when in fact the people of the area had little to no say in the matter.

I get what you're saying, but in this case there's absolutely no doubt that the people of Crimea harbor pro-Russian sentiments, that much is obvious. This was the case way before the current crisis, and I can't see why it would have changed. By intervening, we would effectively take a stance against the Crimean people. We would disregard their sovereingty in favor of the new Ukrainian state, which is hostile to them. Can you imagine what it's like to be a ethnic minority inside a hostile state? Forced assimilation politics, repression and worse. I'm not wishing this upon them.

It's the same as when Russia attacked Georgia over Abkhazia and South Ossetia. It's widely interpreted as an unlawful annexion of Georgian territory by the MSM, but in reality it happened because Georgia had decided to attack those regions. They declared war on their own citizens. Ponder that for a moment. Two regions inhabited by ethnic minorities to whom Georgians were hostile, and which they had decided to crush. Nobody in the West cared about the fate of the Abkhazian and South Ossetian people. They only cared about Georgia's territorial integrity.

muse7
Question is

Why should anything be done?

Why can't we let these two countries settle their differences one on one?

Because the same excuse that the Russians are using to protect ethnic Russian in the Ukraine could be used by Turkey to protect what it calls it brothers the Tatars of Crimea. And that is just one problem with letting them settle it themselves. It could lead to very bad things.

We should do 'nothing'.

From what I have gleaned there is a substantial Russian population in Ukraine, the Russian civilian are being targeted for abuse and the Russian army is there to keep the peace.

Imagine if all the illegal aliens in southern California and started targeting the increasingly disarmed American citizens. Damn Skippy the US would send in the army. Well maybe not 'Obama' he want that to happen he is just afraid to say it outloud.

VforVendettea
We should do 'nothing'.

From what I have gleaned there is a substantial Russian population in Ukraine, the Russian civilian are being targeted for abuse and the Russian army is there to keep the peace.

Imagine if all the illegal aliens in southern California and started targeting the increasingly disarmed American citizens. Damn Skippy the US would send in the army. Well maybe not 'Obama' he want that to happen he is just afraid to say it outloud.

Except none of that is happening in Ukraine. The only person even pretending it is Putin, the same guy pretending that those are not Russian troops in Crimea. The rest of your scenerio makes no sense at all.

Open up the trans-Canadian pipeline, cut off gas through the Ukraine,
and sell Canadian and American oil and natural gas to Europe.

There really is not much anyone can do to stop Russia from taking the entire Ukraine, however, we can really hurt Russia's pocketbook and fill ours.

Doubt it will ever come to that with the pipeline and shipping to Europe, however, that is what I would do.

MrSpad
Except none of that is happening in Ukraine.

Really? So there's no language ban in Ukraine? I must have hallucinated.

The new Ukraine’s first law revokes Russian language rights

So removing someone's rights doesn't qualify as targeting him?

Cathcart

MrSpad
Except none of that is happening in Ukraine.

Really? So there's no language ban in Ukraine? I must have hallucinated.

The new Ukraine’s first law revokes Russian language rights

So removing someone's rights doesn't qualify as targeting him?

edit on 4-3-2014 by Cathcart because: (no reason given)

You have not hallucinated you just wrong. The answer to your question is no. The law was vetoed. And it fact it was not a new law it was a repeal of a law of from 2012 and would have returned Ukraine to the same languages laws it had since 1998. The repeal was in fact vetoed and is now dead.

The global corptocracy has become too interconnected for this to be simply between Russia and Ukraine IMO.

Look at the markets - reacting just like we do at the drop of a hat on speculation alone.

I can't imagine the number of hands in this cookie jar and I don't believe anyone (Nations) settles things on their own anymore without any outside influence in this world except for tribal cultures completely cut off from "modern" civilization.

We're all connected...man... lol.

BABYBULL24
Send in Special Forces & blow-up every pipeline from Russia into Ukraine - Putin would be broke in no time. They send 5 million barrels per day to Europe at $100 a barrel - it adds real quick.

Yes sir and it would add up alot faster if the West had their hand in the matter..........Like blow the pipeline and we will rebuild it but at the cost of $300.00 per barrel.

Just like Iraq we will rebuild what we destroyed with the Iraqi's oil and not our own money......has that rebuilding been done yet?

Regards, Iwinder

reply to post by jdoors


We need to clean house in the West before we go bringing "Demoracy(£)" to any one
else's door.
The US and the UK in particular.