Russian Federation Council Agrees to Putin's Request for military intervention in Crimea

andy1972
Stu, sorry to disagree mate, but whats the difference between 19th century imperialism and the imperialism of today??

Don't apologise chap, you're entitled to your own thoughts!

But the difference? It's not the 19th century any more and the entire world has changed. There are rules and laws in place to govern how nations should act after the last debacle around 1939...

andy1972
Same shi+ different day. The west, particulaly America has invaded and raped illegaly dozens of countries in the name of destroying dictatorships, defending its interests etc etc

As I said in another thread, much of what America has done in the 20th century is in the backdrop of the Col War and Russia/the Soviets were hardly any better. What America did was perceived to be for the "greater good" and to stop the spread of Communist dictatorships. We can argue all day about whether it was right or wrong, but don't go citing those examples out of context!

andy1972
It has imposed puppet governments who don't make a move without the nod from Washington, if not from the CIA.
When a country is friendly "towards western policy" and doesn't allow American and / or European corporate muscle to do as it likes, that country suddenly is either labelled as a terrorist haven or has sanctions levelled against it as a dictatorship, and the populace suffer.

Afghan was a terrorist haven and Iraq was run by a dictator though....

andy1972
Im all for seperating the country, if as you said, it's done properly and it's really what they want and the majority really do feel themselves ethnically Russian.

And it has to be done in proper elections and without 150,000 Russian troops breathing down their necks.

andy1972
It's double standards, we invade 2 countries on a basis of lies, we have armies of occupation from a dozen antions stationed there for 13 years protecting a natural gas pipeline that runs from Turkmanistan to india, but the difference is we label it "the war on terror", so its OK.

Het to break it you bud, but all this conspiracy nonsense about a "pipeline" is just bollocks. They haven't even agreed a route, much less started building it. That is assuming you're on about Afghanistan?

andy1972
America provokes a government change in Ukraine, and before they've had a chance to vote in a muppet government, Putin torpedos the plan by doing the last thing anyone expected. And the west points the finger of disgust at Russia for someting it has done time and again, it's hipocritical.

Again, you're taking this all out of context and looking through conspiratorial glasses. The Ukraine has been having major problems since 2004 when they had the Orange Revolution. The changes brought in by that Government were totally undone by the recently ousted President (who was also the President in 2004) and he threw many of the revolutionary politicians in jail on trumped up charges, tried to kill another and has fostered a corrupt Government which friends and family members benefit from. Not to mention alleged electoral fraud to be voted in power in the first place, all with the overt and tacit backing of Moscow.

Accusing the US of meddling here is highly one sided and ignores history, both recent and distant.

reply to post by stumason

Accusing the US of meddling here is highly one sided and ignores history, both recent and distant.

Given the speed with which the unmarked Russian troops appeared in Crimea, it is clear that the entire operation was planned well in advance. This makes it likely that the violence in Kiyev was provoked by the Russians themselves as a pretext for their planned invasion.

Kerry threats vs Russia unacceptable, West sides with neo-Nazis - Russia's FM

The Russian Foreign Ministry said “unacceptable threats” delivered by US Secretary of State John Kerry regarding the situation in Crimea has failed to take into account the violent power seizure in Kiev carried out by radicals.

In the statement released Monday, the ministry said Kerry’s “Cold War” rhetoric would do nothing to punish “radical extremists” who carried out the coup, but rather sought to put the focus on the Russian Federation. It was further critical of the G7’s decision to suspend preparations for the upcoming G8 Summit in Sochi, saying the move has no grounds.

rt.com...

MessageforAll
As many suspected no one is gonna touch Russia, not the Nato not even the US.
The Budapest memorandum means squat.

AND...

Putin isn't going to be coming out of this looking all hip, slick and cool smelling like roses either...

DJW001
Given the speed with which the unmarked Russian troops appeared in Crimea, it is clear that the entire operation was planned well in advance. This makes it likely that the violence in Kiyev was provoked by the Russians themselves as a pretext for their planned invasion.

you realize how close Crimea is to Russia right?

Its the same idiotic statements that made people think Georgia was orchestrated by Russia.

Considering that the Black Sea fleet (Russian Navy Port) is located IN CRIMEA, it would suffice to say there was Russia men already there

Also, considering it was a couple of days between the time the X-Ukrainian leader fled to Russia and the issues in Crimea started occurring, I'm guessing I could have ridden my bicycle from Russia to Crimea in the same amount of time.

edit to add

the Russian Southern Military command is in the North Caucus.
5-600KM away

en.wikipedia.org...

The idea that Russia planned this in advance because he managed to get ground forces into the Crimea 48hrs after Ukraine's government fell is a very uneducated and dangerous statement.

SLAYER69
Putin isn't going to be coming out of this looking all hip, slick and cool smelling like roses either...

Not to be contradictory ... but, he will to his countrymen. This was an easy win for Putin!!

MessageforAll
Ukraine's acting PM Arseniy Yatsenyuk speaks. Highlights below:

UKRAINE TO FULFILL ALL IMF REQUIREMENTS, PREMIER SAYS - like Greece?

Translated "OK - we'll play ball with the west now, HELP !!!!"

SLAYER69


AND...

Putin isn't going to be coming out of this looking all hip, slick and cool smelling like roses either...

He will to Russians. And he'll have Ukraine probably.

I don't think he much cares how it looks to everyone else.

UkraineInEurope ‏@UkraineInEurope 5m
International journalists missing today's ongoing pro-Russian infiltration - Odessa, Donetsk etc.

14:09: More from the Russian foreign ministry statement. It says that the G7 decision to suspend preparatory work on the G8 summit in Sochi "has no grounds".

14:08: Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk says: "Russian troops will not be allowed into [Ukraine's] eastern regions," Interfax-Ukraine reports. He was speaking while meeting businesspeople in Kiev. (BBC Monitoring)

14:03: The Russian rouble has fallen to "an all-time low against both the dollar and the euro" amid the latest developments in Ukraine, the Gazprom-owned Russian channel NTV reports. For more details read our story here.

13:53: Recent statements by US Secretary of State John Kerry about Ukraine contain threats against Moscow and are "unacceptable", Russian foreign ministry says.

All is well lol....

MessageforAll
Another interesting tweet.
Euromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR 5m
Ex-advisor of Putin: “Special troops which will kill Russians arrived in Crimea” #Ukraine

Make up your own mind whether biased or not.

edit on rdAmerica/Chicago303000000k2014 by MessageforAll because: (no reason given)

Would'nt be the first time a country has killed it's own to start a war would it...mentioning no names...

stumason

andy1972
Stu, sorry to disagree mate, but whats the difference between 19th century imperialism and the imperialism of today??

Don't apologise chap, you're entitled to your own thoughts!

But the difference? It's not the 19th century any more and the entire world has changed. There are rules and laws in place to govern how nations should act after the last debacle around 1939...

andy1972
Same shi+ different day. The west, particulaly America has invaded and raped illegaly dozens of countries in the name of destroying dictatorships, defending its interests etc etc

As I said in another thread, much of what America has done in the 20th century is in the backdrop of the Col War and Russia/the Soviets were hardly any better. What America did was perceived to be for the "greater good" and to stop the spread of Communist dictatorships. We can argue all day about whether it was right or wrong, but don't go citing those examples out of context!

andy1972
It has imposed puppet governments who don't make a move without the nod from Washington, if not from the CIA.
When a country is friendly "towards western policy" and doesn't allow American and / or European corporate muscle to do as it likes, that country suddenly is either labelled as a terrorist haven or has sanctions levelled against it as a dictatorship, and the populace suffer.

Afghan was a terrorist haven and Iraq was run by a dictator though....

andy1972
Im all for seperating the country, if as you said, it's done properly and it's really what they want and the majority really do feel themselves ethnically Russian.

And it has to be done in proper elections and without 150,000 Russian troops breathing down their necks.

andy1972
It's double standards, we invade 2 countries on a basis of lies, we have armies of occupation from a dozen antions stationed there for 13 years protecting a natural gas pipeline that runs from Turkmanistan to india, but the difference is we label it "the war on terror", so its OK.

Het to break it you bud, but all this conspiracy nonsense about a "pipeline" is just bollocks. They haven't even agreed a route, much less started building it. That is assuming you're on about Afghanistan?

andy1972
America provokes a government change in Ukraine, and before they've had a chance to vote in a muppet government, Putin torpedos the plan by doing the last thing anyone expected. And the west points the finger of disgust at Russia for someting it has done time and again, it's hipocritical.

Again, you're taking this all out of context and looking through conspiratorial glasses. The Ukraine has been having major problems since 2004 when they had the Orange Revolution. The changes brought in by that Government were totally undone by the recently ousted President (who was also the President in 2004) and he threw many of the revolutionary politicians in jail on trumped up charges, tried to kill another and has fostered a corrupt Government which friends and family members benefit from. Not to mention alleged electoral fraud to be voted in power in the first place, all with the overt and tacit backing of Moscow.

Accusing the US of meddling here is highly one sided and ignores history, both recent and distant.

Stu, of all you said above, i will disagree on one point...

Quote - "Afghan was a terrorist haven and Iraq was run by a dictator though...."

The terrorists AND the dictator were products of which nation ??

Who funded AND armed the terrorists and the dictator??

Which country aided the dictator to gas iran??

It's funny how the terrorists weren't terrorists when they were giving the Russians a kicking for ten years, oh no, then they were "Freedom fighters struggling against communist imperialism"

The USA created and funded and trained and armed both Hussein and the Taliban, and when the two no longer served a purpose, they were used as patsy's for the "war on terror"...sad..

Aye, they all use the same tactics.
Victoria ‏@ua_new 3m
Interior Ministry: Provocations are planned in Crimea this night #Ukraine #Crimea ua-new.livejournal.com...

Agit8dChop
Its the same idiotic statements that made people think Georgia was orchestrated by Russia.

It's hardly idiotic - in fact, it was bloody obvious. The Russians managed to get 20k+ troops right into the heart of Georgia within 5 days. You can't do that unless you're expecting trouble. They also trumped the accusations of "massacres", claiming 2,000 people had been killed by the Georgians, when only 180 had died and mostly after the Russian invasion.

Those two "breakaway" republics of Georgia and are now squarely under the control of Moscow, who refuses all attempts to mediate and return the land to Georgia.

stumason

Agit8dChop
Its the same idiotic statements that made people think Georgia was orchestrated by Russia.

It's hardly idiotic - in fact, it was bloody obvious. The Russians managed to get 20k+ troops right into the heart of Georgia within 5 days. You can't do that unless you're expecting trouble. They also trumped the accusations of "massacres", claiming 2,000 people had been killed by the Georgians, when only 180 had died and mostly after the Russian invasion.

Those two "breakaway" republics of Georgia and are now squarely under the control of Moscow, who refuses all attempts to mediate and return the land to Georgia.

Considering the size of the 58th Army I don't see 20k troops being brought 3-400km a major challenge considering the size of the Russian military and its mobility. It wouldn't take long to get all those men equipped and to their muster points.
Also, they didnt get INTO georgia, they got to the tunnels linking it.

But, in saying that, Georgia very well could have been a case of '' we're expecting it, lets prepare '' looking at the time line it does say tensions were building for some time.

However, I don't believe Russia instigated Georgia.

But thats for another time, in regards to this particular conflict, the same rules apply, Just because Russia got a hand ful of men on the ground in Crimea days after the Ukrainian leader fled does not mean Russia instigated this entire thing.

andy1972
Stu, of all you said above, i will disagree on one point...

Quote - "Afghan was a terrorist haven and Iraq was run by a dictator though...."

The terrorists AND the dictator were products of which nation ??

Who funded AND armed the terrorists and the dictator??

Which country aided the dictator to gas iran??

It's funny how the terrorists weren't terrorists when they were giving the Russians a kicking for ten years, oh no, then they were "Freedom fighters struggling against communist imperialism"

The USA created and funded and trained and armed both Hussein and the Taliban, and when the two no longer served a purpose, they were used as patsy's for the "war on terror"...sad..

Which comes round back to the Cold War contexts! Remember, don't look at anything in isolation, Andy!

Iran was Soviet backed, so we backed Iraq. Saddam then went a bit loopy afterwards and invaded Kuwait - he did have half a claim there, but the invasion put paid to that. We were then obliged to react and he became an enemy.

The Soviets invade Afghan, so we back the Mujahadeen.

However, after that war was over, those Mujahadeen then went a bit loopy, formed the Taliban, took over the country and harboured extremists who then went on to plan 9/11 (so sayeth history...)

Snarl

SLAYER69
Putin isn't going to be coming out of this looking all hip, slick and cool smelling like roses either...

Not to be contradictory ... but, he will to his countrymen. This was an easy win for Putin!!

Not if the Russian troops start dying of malaria... like they did last time.

14:37: UK Minister of State at the Foreign Office, Hugo Swire, tells the BBC: "We must engage with Russia. It's no good this rhetoric, we need to engage and work our way through this very, very tense situation."

reply to post by Agit8dChop


Getting 20k men from a standing start and into Georgia (they did get into the country proper - Russian forces took the city of Poti) inside of 5 days is pretty good going, actually.

Unless they were already on heightened alert, of course!

stumason

andy1972
Stu, of all you said above, i will disagree on one point...

Quote - "Afghan was a terrorist haven and Iraq was run by a dictator though...."

The terrorists AND the dictator were products of which nation ??

Who funded AND armed the terrorists and the dictator??

Which country aided the dictator to gas iran??

It's funny how the terrorists weren't terrorists when they were giving the Russians a kicking for ten years, oh no, then they were "Freedom fighters struggling against communist imperialism"

The USA created and funded and trained and armed both Hussein and the Taliban, and when the two no longer served a purpose, they were used as patsy's for the "war on terror"...sad..

Which comes round back to the Cold War contexts! Remember, don't look at anything in isolation, Andy!

Iran was Soviet backed, so we backed Iraq. Saddam then went a bit loopy afterwards and invaded Kuwait - he did have half a claim there, but the invasion put paid to that. We were then obliged to react and he became an enemy.

The Soviets invade Afghan, so we back the Mujahadeen.

However, after that war was over, those Mujahadeen then went a bit loopy, formed the Taliban, took over the country and harboured extremists who then went on to plan 9/11 (so sayeth history...)

The Mujahadeen were trained, armed funded and backed 6 months before the Russians ACTUALLY invaded Afghanistan.
The invasion stopped at the Iraqi border in 1991 when Stormin' Norman Schwarzkopf and everyone else wanted to go in and finish the job off..why did they stop??

Answer - Because if they toppled Saddam in '91 who were they going to blame and invade a decade later?

In this games there's no saints Stu..we're all guilty of something.

Russian Fleet Gives Ukrainian Crimea Forces Ultimatum To Surrender Or "Face Storm", Ukraine Defense Minister Quoted
Submitted by Tyler Durden on 03/03/2014 - 10:02
Just out from Reuters:

INTERFAX UKRAINIAN DEFENCE MINISTRY AS SAYING RUSSIAN FLEET HAS GIVEN UKRAINIAN FORCES IN CRIMEA UNTIL 0300 GMT TOSURRENDER OR FACE STORM
It appears Putin is still unaware of the "costs" he is facing.


www.zerohedge.com...