Why can some dog owners be such selfish muppets?

reply to post by billyvonhelvete


Welll, no more of that work for me. As it sounds like you understand, my body simply wont let me do things like that anymore.

It allowed me to focus on my scientific work though, and in the big scheme of things, that is more important.

My only suggestion with shepherds/offshoots (malinois, etc) is to make sure they have a straight back and are bred for work rather than show. Be prepared for "the GSD whine" though. Some dont have it that bad.. some.. really, really do! Feel free to U2U me as well, if you have any question. I did a lot of basic training (bread and butter income), but preferred high level (Schutzhund, SAR, Service Dogs, etc).

I strongly feel the AKC has done an incredible amount to destroy what breeds were originally meant to be (healthy, for one). They have completely neglected function for form. I have worked in nearly every field concerning canines, including being a "pseudo-genetic consultant" for breeders. Most didnt think it mattered, and only the looks were important...

Going a bit OT though.

Thanks for that, any advice from time to time is always welcome, my relative is of the same mind as you, he looks at everything to do with a breed, and also likes to visit the breeder to know what the dog has come from ( strong parents, no problems, hes pushing me towards the Belgium, as in his experience they suffer from a lot less probs, hes also happy to take me to look at them so he can the parents and temprement. When I go with friends to exercise theirs, one always sticks to my side, stops when I do (thats when its not sitting on my lap!). Shes not that big, but shes compact and stocky, if I can find one like her, il be happy.
Thanks again.
BVH.

Your dog is sweet when he is with you. Great. I get that. So are pit bulls, rotweillers, and any other dogs, really, who imprint on their owners. Like you said, it's natural canine behavior. But your dog is not a cocker spaniel, not a toy poodle. It's a big, relatively dangerous dog. Your dog's behavior is not like all other dogs' behavior. Lots of dogs are happy to see other dogs. They want to sniff. They want to play. They do not react aggressively--like your dog does. Your story shows that clearly.

For one reason or another, you've chosen an aggressive dog. I won't hazard a guess as to why because it doesn't matter. You made that choice. The bottom line is that YOU are responsible for the behavior of the dog. Yes, you can "explain" it with paragraph after paragraph of canine psychology. That's great, too, that you are so knowledgeable about dog behavior, about YOUR dog's behavior, about how strong his jaws are and how much bigger he is than the other puny dogs in the world. You are obviously proud of your big, macho dog. Good for you. I'm sure you feel well-protected.

So now you are taking your big dog out into the real world, and your angry at stupid people who don't have a clue as to how protective your big aggressive dog is. Yes, some people are like that. They just assume the world is a friendly place and they can't understand why someone would have a big, aggressive dog who would kill another dog--because, of course, he's "defending you" from that aggressive cocker spaniel wagging his tail.

But that's how the world is, and you and I both know that, don't we? I mean, if you ever got on the witness stand and the prosecutor asked you, "Did you know that people sometimes have their dogs off leashes even when there's a rule they shouldn't?" You'd have to say, "Yes." wouldn't you? In fact, you ALSO know that sometimes stray dogs don't have leashes or humans who control them, right? They are out there all alone, and there's no one you can yell at (except the dog) should one of those strays wander toward you.

So now you are angry (ranting, even) because other people won't accommodate you because you have a special need to keep your aggressive dog under control. They really should be more careful and should realize they need to stay away from you and your 'special needs' macho aggressive dog, and they're actually pretty stupid that they don't understand this. (And, BTW, I agree with you. They are quite obviously clueless.)

So when this happens you yell and scream at these clueless people, giving them a piece of your mind and telling them how stupid they are--kind of the same behavior as your dog, really, being aggressive to people who were not being aggressive toward you, except for their audacity at being in the same public place as you, of course. It is said that people get dogs that reflect their own personality. Well, it sure seems like it anyway.

But really, all rules aside, it's also obvious people should stay away from your aggressive dog if they dare to have a dog of their own. After all, he's the biggest toughest strongest dog in the neighborhood, and that means you are, too. But I might suggest one very small change in your behavior. Perhaps you've already done this, which is great! But you really should consider

carrying a lot of insurance. It might not keep you out of jail, but at least it will pay for damages.

reply to post by taketheredpill


I do sympathize with you - I used to own (deceased now :'( ) a german shepard that loved the family, but hated pretty much anything else - she would play roughly with any other people she came in contact with (bit a little harder than she should have), and it took her a while to get used to someone new. Half my friends were scared to come over, because of her.

Now, I'm partially to blame for that bit (Seeing as I played with her on her terms - she took walks on mine), but it always irked me that people would instantly assume that she's friendly because she would give me kisses when we stopped to take a brake, or would give me a branch so we could play tug-of-war; Funny thing was that it was more adults than kids that I've had to warn away.

So, to remedy the situation on my end - I always took walks with her after dark, or in places that most people didn't venture; once school's out for summer, there's hardly anyone in the parking lots.

And it's a two-way street with dogs - You can condition your pet to get along with everyone, but not everyone can condition their pet to get along with you. If I knew my dog had a problem with other dogs, I wouldn't let it off the leash even if it were a park (I'd do it from a fenced yard at my house). And likewise, if I knew that my dog was very friendly, and that there were other dogs present, I wouldn't let it off the leash until I've seen how the dogs interact while on the leash.

-fossilera

reply to post by Serdgiam


Aggressive? Apprehensive? By the way I am a female also. And a Nurse. And I am the most unaggressive person that you will probably ever meet. I have seen what my dog is capable of when she fought at home with our other staffy. The fact that I think ahead and assess the situation and consider the possibility that things could get out of hand does not mean I am aggressive - only proactive. Apprehensive - yes, as I still have the scar to show for trying to break my dogs up the first and , may I add ONLY time they ever fought. As a naive idiot that thought it was ok to have 2 staffys around one bone, trying to break up a fight, I learnt many lessons that day. My dog only barked at the dog and showed her teeth - she was protecting her owner.Dogs dont have the ability to say "back the hell off man, I dont want you coming near my person" so they use body language, bear teeth and bark to show they arent happy. What else was she supposed to do?

reply to post by schuyler

The bottom line is that YOU are responsible for the behavior of the dog.

Yes, I am responsible for the behaviour of my dog. And I have commented on other posts on this thread that I understand that. But the thing that I was trying to highlight is that as a dog owner you are also responsible for protecting your dog from harm. Compare it to letting your child run around near a road. Would you let your child do that, knowing that there is the possibility that a car could come round the corner and the unthinkable could happen should your child happen to be on the road? Think about the driver of the car that was driving the speed limit, following the road rules and a child suddenly gets in the way. That driver will pay the consequences, finacially and morally, all because of one persons lack of care for someone they had a duty to protect.

"You are obviously proud of your big, macho dog. Good for you. I'm sure you feel well-protected."

Ok, from this comment all I an assume is that you think that I am some 6 foot tall, tattooed skinhead with some chip on their shoulder that thinks the world owes them something. I am a 33 year old, single female nurse. And yes, I do feel well protected when I am out and that is great for me. But I am acutely aware that others may feel threatened by my dog and as such I take measures to avoid others coming to harm and feeling threatened.I dont think that you actually read the parts of my post that described my dog as a complete wuss (coward) and a big sooky lala (mummys girl). You have started reading my post and have this image of someone I am not in your mind and have made assumptions and judgements based on that and that alone. I did not pick my dog, I was given her as a gift from my partner and as a companinon for our other dog.

So now you are taking your big dog out into the real world, and your angry at stupid people who don't have a clue as to how protective your big aggressive dog is

No, I am angry at stupid people who do not keep their dog on a lead where they should and ignore the requests of other people who ask that they leash their dog to avoid a fight.

But that's how the world is, and you and I both know that, don't we? I mean, if you ever got on the witness stand and the prosecutor asked you, "Did you know that people sometimes have their dogs off leashes even when there's a rule they shouldn't?" You'd have to say, "Yes." wouldn't you?

What is your point? I have already said that I would be more than willing to stand up and take responsibility. I would expect my lawyer to also argue the point that owners need to obey the bylaws and legislation put in place to avoid these types of situations.

In fact, you ALSO know that sometimes stray dogs don't have leashes or humans who control them, right? They are out there all alone, and there's no one you can yell at (except the dog) should one of those strays wander toward you.

FYI - I have lived in Australia for 5 years now and I have never once seen or encountered a stray dog when out. Law enforcement in this country tend to take their jobs seriously and actually keep the streets safe.

So now you are angry (ranting, even) because other people won't accommodate you because you have a special need to keep your aggressive dog under control.

No, the fact is that I have to accomodate them because I am FORCED to have to control my dog when they cannot keep their dog under their control. These types of owners are the issue here, not ones that actually take responsibility for keeping their dog and others safe.

They really should be more careful and should realize they need to stay away from you and your 'special needs' macho aggressive dog, and they're actually pretty stupid that they don't understand this.

Yes they really should be more careful with their dog, and should have the foresight to know that things can go wrong in a second. People are stupid, as far as I am concerned for not listening to pleas and repeated attempts of those wth the forsight to diffuse the situation before it occurs. And I resent you describing my dog like that. You are they type of person, obviously, that thinks that all people with dogs that can cause serious harm have them as a status symbol. How wrong you are.

So when this happens you yell and scream at these clueless people, giving them a piece of your mind and telling them how stupid they are--kind of the same behavior as your dog, really, being aggressive to people who were not being aggressive toward you, except for their audacity at being in the same public place as you, of course.

Who is yelling and screaming? You can quite calmly tell someone that they are an idiot that should have their head read wiythout resorting to childish immature behaviour. And, for your information a dog that rushes at people can have the label "menacing" put onto them by law here in australia. Which, by law, was what that dog was doing. I knew it was friendly but my dog didnt, and as such she went into protection mode.

But really, all rules aside, it's also obvious people should stay away from your aggressive dog if they dare to have a dog of their own. After all, he's the biggest toughest strongest dog in the neighborhood, and that means you are, too.

Wow - stereotype much? You are clearly a very close minded individual that makes judgements based on past experiences that you have had with "people that own macho aggressive dogs" - yes, people like me - young single women that obey the laws put in place to protect both people and other animals from coming to harm.

It is said that people get dogs that reflect their own personality. Well, it sure seems like it anyway.

Dogs that reflect personality - seems true in your case...cocker spaniels are known for being rather stupid and intolerant. Go figure.

taketheredpill
reply to post by Serdgiam

 

Aggressive? Apprehensive? By the way I am a female also. And a Nurse. And I am the most unaggressive person that you will probably ever meet.

Listen, its not about "who you are" in general, its how your dog perceives you and what you are doing that certain moment. From the sounds of it, yes, you were aggressive and apprehensive. It should come as no surprise that your dog mimics this. Even in your re-telling of the story, you are quite aggressive and freely insult others.

I have seen what my dog is capable of when she fought at home with our other staffy. The fact that I think ahead and assess the situation and consider the possibility that things could get out of hand does not mean I am aggressive - only proactive. Apprehensive - yes, as I still have the scar to show for trying to break my dogs up the first and , may I add ONLY time they ever fought.

I was guessing that was the event that caused your apprehension. More importantly, when the dog was young, did they have some negative encounters with other dogs? This is more important than the breed itself. What you view as "proactive" is viewed by your dog as aggressive.

Full Stop.

As a naive idiot that thought it was ok to have 2 staffys around one bone, trying to break up a fight, I learnt many lessons that day. My dog only barked at the dog and showed her teeth - she was protecting her owner.Dogs dont have the ability to say "back the hell off man, I dont want you coming near my person" so they use body language, bear teeth and bark to show they arent happy. What else was she supposed to do?

The dog did what she perceived she was supposed to do, all queued up by your signals that you gave her!

And, its not really a mistake to let staffies chew on a bone together. The breed isnt important. Any dogs of any breed can fight over a single bone. Some, of any breed, are more than willing to even share a three inch long scrap at the same time. This is not exclusive to amstaff/staff/APBT. Far from it, actually.

She might not have been protecting you at all, just being "proactive," does that make sense?

None of this is meant as an "attack" on you or anything else like that. This is a topic that I really know what I am talking about, and have dealt with thousands of people and their dogs. Many with the same situation as you, but significantly worse, since they truly did have "big dangerous dogs" (I do not lump bully breeds in with that).

I am replying to the original post with a bit of a rant of my own, I apologize if it is considered 'hijacking' the thread, but it does have to do with dog owners, so I am hoping to actually just bring another viewpoint and some information while venting.

There's so much to being a dog owner that most people don't even realize half of it. Watching just a few episodes of "Dog Whisperer" should make this clear to anyone. Dogs in the western world are pampered beyond belief (and antropomorphized, and especially "babied" by women - which shouldn't be a surprise, because owmen 'baby' anything they can get their hands on, and no one tells them to control this lust because women are kept above criticism in this matriarchal, fema-fascist world)

Dog owners really make me angry and frustrated from time to time. One reason is that they are so selfish, self-centered and lazy that they absolutely won't give the dog what it needs (enough exercize (at least 45 minutes per day) and discipline (rules, boundaries, limitations) before affection), but what the humans consider "convenient".

For example, consider a middle-aged woman, who considers her dog's barking to be a problem in walks, and then reinforces that bad behaviour by giving the dog a 'treat' when the dog comes to get the treat. She lets the dog roam free dominantly, and forces the dog to be the pack leader.

After that woman receives the information about what she is doing wrong, she completely misunderstands everything, and then in the end, continues with the same treatment with another similar dog, because "that dog is a good one".

She doesn't see that the 'good' dog is also showing symptoms of anxiety, being forced to be a pack leader, constantly 'charging' other dogs, and being very disrespectful towards dogs and humans. She doesn't consider this to be a problem, because the dog doesn't BARK.

How selfish! She only sees a problem if it causes her embarrassment, but if the dog is suffering just as much psychologically, it's considered a "good dog", just because she doesn't EXPRESS the inner torture the same way the other dog does. So she keeps going with the bad habits, and sees nothing wrong with that - it's ONLY the 'bark' that she cares about, and she ONLY tries to control that, and only in the "problem dog", without giving the "good dog" _ANY_ discipline whatsoever.

Another example.

A dog owner likes to, instead of a good, brisk, 45 minute walk every day, bring his two collies to defacate and urinate right under other people's balconies (in a small park-like area) so he can just lazily and slowly walk a small path back and forth get on with it - instead of bringing the dogs, for example, to a dog park that would be just 200 meters away from where he lives. Not to mention that dogs are supposed to be kept on a leash. After he has been told about the dog park and the rules that he has consented to following, he still continues this criminal and lazy, selfish behaviour.

He does not give the dogs what they need, and he doesn't take them to a proper walk or to meet other dogs (which IS important to dogs - how else are they doing to learn social skills? There is power in the pack, but people don't consider dogs as pack animals, they consider dogs as small humans that they can spoil and spoil and give affection, affection and more affection to, and then wonder why the dogs start 'misbehaving', and think it's just a dog's behaviour problem that they need to address), and he doesn't follow the rules of the apartment building complex. I mean, who lets their dogs defacate and urinate right next to other people's balconies, on the back yard of an apartment building?

This man is a 'foreigner', and it seems that those people do not like to obey or follow the rules of the country that has kindly let them move in and is giving them shelter. I don't understand this kind of attitude - if I moved to another country, I would be sure to respect the ways of the country (especially if they are reasonable), and to respect the people there, and not just do whatever I want, disregarding everything.

And the last example - this time a generic one.

It's probably only in countries where the seasons bring lots of snow, that you can really see this problem manifest itself.

Dog owners let their dogs defacate and urinate -absolutely-anywhere-. There are not many 'clean' patches during the winter, when there's lots of snow, and the pathways are narrow in places, where you don't have to avoid stepping on doo-doo or 'yellow snow'. It's amazing. They just don't have ANY regard or respect for human pathways, they just let the dogs do whatever they want! (Which is bad for the dogs anyway, psychologically speaking, as mentioned before)

Dog owners are not only completely CLUELESS as to how to properly and responsibly raise a dog and treat a dog, but they are also MORONS, because when they are given the information, they misunderstand it completely and don't see the big picture, no matter how much it is explained to them. They are, in addition, SELFISH, for not wanting to take the dogs to dog parks to defacate and urinate THERE (that's what the parks are for, among other things), and they DO NOT PICK UP their dear fifi's bum productions, like they are supposed to. They do not give the dogs the excersize they need (they are not even aware of how much their specific dog needs it, whether their dog is low energy, medium energy or high energy, etc.), and they just absolutely REFUSE to give the dogs any discipline the dogs desperatey need, especially if the dog is not exhibiting symptoms that EMBARRASS the owners.

So it's fine for the dog to be crazy, anxious, out of its tiny little mind, charge other dogs, INITIATE things (like play), sniff anyone and anything they want at any time they CHOOSE (dogs should not be allowed to make choices), if they are not exhibiting embarrassing BARKING behaviour or OPEN AGGRESSION.

As long as the owner doesn't have to DO anything much, it's all fine. If we could just get the barking to stop, then everything would be fine, and I could just lazily talk to other clueless dog owners, without paying attention what the dogs do, and letting them run around and play and even dominate each other and humans, as long as they don't bark too much..

Dog owners are the most despicable people on the planet - or, they would be, if there wouldn't be so many just as lazy, moronic idiots roaming around without anyone seeing anything wrong with that..

This is of course not the problem itself, it's just one manifestation, one symptom of the REAL illness, which is cluelessness, stupidity, selfishness, evil and dumbness all wrapped into one, demonic and repulsive package that is the 'humanity' of planet Earth.

This dog-owner-example could very easily be shown to exist in other areas just as well. Child raising? Anyone? Has anyone seen a few episodes of "Supernanny"?

It's VERY common to see bad parenting, and it's VERY rare to see good parenting. Yet all parents think they are good parents, and some of them seem to even think they don't need books or any information to raise kids, because 'our kid is just fine' (although he/she is definitely NOT)..

I mean, ALL the basics of human life ... are warped, twisted and wrong. Child raising, dog ownership, gender relationships, and so on. Denizens of this planet have SUCH poisonous, mutated and odd attitudes towards things - dogs, children and people, for example - that it's a miracle that things are not even worse than they are (as bad as they are).

I didn't even mention food 'culture' or the whole systematized murder acceptance (not only when 'creating' 'food', but also when thinking about standing armies, ready to murder people for whatever frivolous reasons the 'leaders' tell them to, without asking questions - oh, sorry, I meant to say "militaries, who defend us against enemies, who would otherwise immediately attack and crush us all").. or the readiness to pollute, although alternatives have existed ever since the car was invented, the 1970s airplane tech, and..

Well, as you can see, it's easy to expand a thought from one area to another, because there is hardly an area in this world and human life, these weird systems that these creatures have built, that shouldn't be immediately fixed or at least couldn't be critisized heavily.

It's hard for us 'big picture' people, because we see not ONLY the "dog owner"-problem (as disturbing as it is, especially to bump into every day), but we also see the reasons for it, and how it expands to all other areas of life as well - these oddballs are just as clueless and selfish in every single other area of their lives, and their misconceptions and poisonous attitudes finish the crapcake, like it was designed that there can't be even ONE good thing that has been done right, or ONE good attitude about anything, ever.

Sigh.

Well, I am venting, of course, but when you think about it, and if you honestly research it, it doesn't matter which area of life you pick, I can almost guarantee you will find it is wrong, and many would probably be shocked. From healthcare to how elders are treated in institutions to what really goes on beyond the veil and behind the curtain..

It's so omnipresent in this world - this ALL-ENCOMPASSING WRONGNESS - that it could make an intelligent, well-meaning human being despair and think that he has been born in an asylum-planet where there is no escape from constant insanity.

I hope you enjoyed my vent and rant, and please treat it as such - we all need to vent/rant sometimes, whether we realize it or not (except the rare individuals who are enlightened, saints, E.T.-visitors, Zen masters or just meditate a lot). Feel free to disagree, especially for your own psychological protection - so-called 'human' psyche is very fragile and breaks easily, so it's better if you live in illusions to protect it than let it break down and suffer a depression/burnout/something mental - I really don't want that to happen, especially because of me.

But the point is - on this planet, EVERYTHING is wrong. Moby was right in his writings in the CD cover, but he only scratched the superficial and materialistic surface, he didn't even touch the human psychology and behaviour and attitude problems, let alone deeper, spiritual and esoteric influences and problems, and so on..

(I can't remember the album name, but basically he wrote 'Everything is wrong' and then tried to explain it by giving statistics, facts about furniture production and shipment and food production and so on)

reply to post by Shoujikina


Yep, that was definitely hijacking. Do you want to actually address any specific thing from what I actually said in my original post? Or just vent about how awful and wrong everyone and everything on this planet is? In regards to people....to err is human....to forgive is devine. This life is one big lesson and NOBODY is perfect. NOBODY. Period. The only thing one can hope, is to actually learn the lesson presented by their mistake. If the mistake is repeated....the lesson has not been learned and is doomed to repeat itself until the lightbulb of realisation is switched on. Dont be so hard on humanity...for the most part...we do the best we can with the information and tools we have at our disposal. Its just a shame that a few ruin it and leave it tainted for the rest of us.

reply to post by Shoujikina


There is a rant forum that would be perfect for your post.

reply to post by taketheredpill


If you want advice on how to deal with these issues, just send me a U2U or something.

I definitely wont just tell you what you want to hear, and it can be a little tricky to do this sort of thing remotely, but I can give you some tools that may help.

On another note, it almost sounds like we had cesar milan (I think thats his name) come into the thread and rant about stuff. You got a celeb in your thread! Maybe.

reply to post by Serdgiam


Hey...Yeah thanks - I would love some pointers on how to help my girl to be more relaxed and not so protective when she neednt be.
Also, advice on whatever I can do to change these encounters would be much appreciated.
Only one thing that I do not know....what is a UTU? I'm pretty new to ATS....help!

reply to post by taketheredpill


Ill send you one a bit later today. It will show up on the right top side of your screen when you get one. It normally shows as a blank outline of a letter, but when you have a new one, it will show up as white. Through the same interface, you can even check if you have gotten direct replies in any threads you have participated in!

You have to wait until you have 50 posts to do it, but you are past that. Its basically the private message system on ATS, but here its called "U2U."

Ill see what I can help ya with. Normally I charge even just for a consult