Misunderstandings about the Holy Scriptures

Akragon
reply to post by iSomeone

 

As far as Judas, Matthew 27:5 deals with the mode of Jesus attempted suicide, and Acts 1:18 describes the result of it. Combining the two we are given to understand that Judas hung himself but that the rope broke so that he plunged below and burst open on the rocks below. The topography of Jerusalem makes this possible.

Also this just goes to show that just because one eye-witness does not give a complete account, that does not make that account inaccurate. It also shows that these accounts, while written by different people (knowing that the one ommitted certain information from the other) harmonize with each.

pure speculation... and for the third time STOP with the assumptions of me.... You don't know me, or my beliefs or what I've studied...

Just stop....

On to the next...

Can thieves go to heaven?

Paul says Thieves will have no part in heaven... where as Jesus sad specifically to the thief beside him, ye shall be with me in paradise...

edit on 2-3-2014 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Paul also stated this:

(1 Corinthians 6:11) . . .And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.


So while, no a thief cannot enter into the kingdom of God in heaven, there were thieves who were declared righteous by means of their faith in Jesus' ransom, and were adopted as spirit sons of God and who will achieve the heavenly award.

The evildoer at Jesus' side, however is not counted among those who will go to heaven. Jesus promised him, on the day he was to die, that he would be with him in paradise.

When Jesus kingdom rule comes to earth and does unto the earth as it is in heaven the earth will be converted to a paradise, and during that kingdom rule Jesus will resurrect all those in the memorial tombs, both righteous people, and unrighteous:

(John 5:28, 29) . . .Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.


If Jesus promised the evildoer that he will resurrect him in that future earthly paradise, over which he will rule as king, then most assuredly he will!

Wouldn't you, even though you are a sinner, be consoled to have such an assurance?

reply to post by calstorm

calstorm
If the bible was truly the word of God, then wouldn't every person who truly wished to understand the bible, be inspired by the holy spirit to come to the same conclusions as all other true believers?

Instead, it seems that all Christians see the bible differently.

That's the problem. Most people "think" they have The Holy Spirit, or feel "something" and call it Holy Spirit.

We are told that The Holy Spirit makes you feel love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control (Galatians 5:22), nothing about feeling something "take over you" and "controlling" you to make you jump up and down or feeling like a trouble maker who is passionate about "The Bible" and judging others.

The Holy Spirit is most important, The Bible is just a resource for those who already have The Holy Spirit. The Bible cannot give you eternal life:


"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." - John 5:39

Holy Spirit which is Compassion is most important, THEN everything else.

reply to post by iSomeone


now you're just preaching... sigh

The evildoer at Jesus' side, however is not counted among those who will go to heaven. Jesus promised him, on the day he was to die, that he would be with him in paradise.

When Jesus kingdom rule comes to earth and does unto the earth as it is in heaven the earth will be converted to a paradise, and during that kingdom rule Jesus will resurrect all those in the memorial tombs, both righteous people, and unrighteous:

Incorrect... Jesus said TODAY you will be with me in paradise

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

On to the next...

There are several accounts of God walking with men on earth.... Yet Jesus said specifically "No man has ever seen God"

Who is correct? The OT or the son of God?

Akragon
reply to post by iSomeone

 

now you're just preaching... sigh

The evildoer at Jesus' side, however is not counted among those who will go to heaven. Jesus promised him, on the day he was to die, that he would be with him in paradise.

When Jesus kingdom rule comes to earth and does unto the earth as it is in heaven the earth will be converted to a paradise, and during that kingdom rule Jesus will resurrect all those in the memorial tombs, both righteous people, and unrighteous:

Incorrect... Jesus said TODAY you will be with me in paradise

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

On to the next...

There are several accounts of God walking with men on earth.... Yet Jesus said specifically "No man has ever seen God"

Who is correct? The OT or the son of God?

You are misunderstanding when Jesus stated: "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise." He was not stating that that exact day he would be in paradise, rather, that on that day, Jesus was affirming that he would be in paradise.

Common sense helps us to understand this. Jesus went to hades (hell) for the parts of the three days he was dead. And he knew we has going to be dead for that that time. It is very obvious he wasn't saying that he and the evildoer were going to be in some type of paradise on that exact day.

These so-called contradictions seem to come from a lot of twisting and misunderstanding of information in the scriptures.



As far as the scriptures that talk about God walking among humans (such as the three angels that appeared to Abraham). These angels (as they represented God) when they talked to Abraham, they did not come of their own accord, they were messengers in behalf of God, so it could be said that they were there as God before Abraham. There is no contradiction, you just have to understand how the Hebrews understood these things, which were trivial to them, but people today blow out of proportion because they cannot understand them.

There still continue to be no contradiction.

So, I have a particular problem with the story of Lot and would love to debate that in detail but ...and yes I did copy this list from another person, below, but it's a good starting point and shows the problems with the bible, in my opinion.

as for Lot...he sends his daughters out to be raped...there isn't one child in the whole city worth saving? BS. You get turned to salt for turning around to look...at presumably huge explosions and loud crazy destruction. The daughters have babies with their dad in the end! A horrible story with no redeeming value.

St Paul’s advice about whether women are allowed to teach men in church: So women are to be subservient to men? I don't want a religion where women are less than men. This isn't an attack but the verse says it all.

“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)


God said kill the Children? Really?

“This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)


But then are there really sorceresses and how would you know one. Brings to mind the Salem witch trials where innocent people were killed.

“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)

Why is this even in the bible?

“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)

This is how we want Christians treating their women? I think not, take it out of the bible.


“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” (Judges 19:25-28)


So what is this saying? We're pretty sure from a psychological perspective that homosexuality is more than a mere choice you make one day.

“In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1:27)

You want to treat your daughters this way?


“And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5)

God says, kill your son. Proving what? This is a horrible story.


‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’ (Genesis 22:2)

another verse that says women are less than men.

“Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:22)

The Bible now saying slavery is correct. and good.

“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)

So as this list demonstrates are some really bad verses in the bible that are A. either open to a bad interpretation or B. they can just be taken at face value and are cruel and vile versus. they should be removed.

The next point is that I'm not sure that Constantine and others didn't already re-do the bible as they saw to it, so thus the commandment to not change the word of God has already been done.

actually, OP; the misunderstandings of the bible go back to genesis but to keep with you theme of conflict between Christ and Satan Satan was active from the garden of eden on. after the fall God told the serpent that his seed and her seed would be enemies. that his seed would bruise her seed's heel and her seed would crush satan's head. then you have Cain and able. remember Jesus was foretold to be of the lineage of Adam and Eve. Cain killed able. so at that point the prophesy of the messiah was challenged and under threat until the birth of seth. if you look into the original languages instead of the English translations you will see a very astonishing fact about the geneology of Cain. it is supported fully throughout the bible and Jesus says that his challengers were of thier father the devil that he was a murderer from the start and the father of lies. he links his accusers as descendants of cain and satan. (you could be forgiven for assuming as most of christianity does that He was speaking in spiritual terms until you go back and examine the passages of the fall and it's immediate aftermath in the original languages) from the garden of eden on the descendants of cain were a constant threat to the validity of Christ's geneological credentials as per the messianic prophesy. about 400 years before he was born the priestly line was corrupted by the descendants of cain to the point that there were no priests qualified to touch or transport the ark to the new temple and the real priests had to be sent for and the caravan had to wait for them. and then with his advent they were right there opposing him. unwittingly they actually helped him accomplish what he came to do.

reply to post by amazing


What is it?

reply to post by iSomeone

You are misunderstanding when Jesus stated: "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise." He was not stating that that exact day he would be in paradise, rather, that on that day, Jesus was affirming that he would be in paradise.

No... that is called reading into something that isn't there....

Common sense helps us to understand this. Jesus went to hades (hell) for the parts of the three days he was dead.

Now we get into silly Christian dogma... Hades and Hell are two different things.... Hell is a myth, Not to mention the fact that Jesus didn't use the word Hell in any of his sermons, the word he used is Gehenna, Look it up, its an actual place just outside of the walls of Jerusalem....

Secondly the idea of Jesus going to hell isn't even biblical... Yet another in a long list of interpretations from preachers and pastors... and has no biblical basis... Perhaps one place where he says the son of man while be in the heart of the earth.... but that is a allegorical meaning... not a literal one...

And he knew we has going to be dead for that that time. It is very obvious he wasn't saying that he and the evildoer were going to be in some type of paradise on that exact day.

Which is a contradiction in itself.... Jesus said he was headed to paradise on the cross... Unless you consider Hell paradise... and considering its nothing more then a myth...

These so-called contradictions seem to come from a lot of twisting and misunderstanding of information in the scriptures.

Similar to a good portion of Christian theology...

As far as the scriptures that talk about God walking among humans (such as the three angels that appeared to Abraham). These angels (as they represented God) when they talked to Abraham, they did not come of their own accord, they were messengers in behalf of God, so it could be said that they were there as God before Abraham. There is no contradiction, you just have to understand how the Hebrews understood these things, which were trivial to them, but people today blow out of proportion because they cannot understand them.

I said the OT... Within the pages of the OT you'll find several reference to God walking with man.... Jesus said no man has ever seen God...

the contradiction stands...

Moving on....

At the so called "conversion" of Paul.... Who fell to the ground?

Everyone present?
Acts 26:14 

And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.


Or maybe just Paul?
Acts 9:7 

And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

reply to post by Akragon


Actually the word for Hades in Hebrew is Hell in Greek, and that is how the word is translated in the King James Version of the Bible.

You are correct that Hellfire dogma is pagan and false. And there are better words to translate the word into English. For example, instead of hell, or hades it could be translated "tomb" or "common grave" much better.

And, after reasoning this little bit with you, I can see how you reason. I respect it, as you have the right to reason the way you do.

But I have come to the conclusions I have not because someone spoon-fed them to me, or because of what someone else told me.

But all of the arguments you have given me, I have seen a hundred times over. And I have seen many more. I was hoping you would give me something I was not familiar with. I really enjoy when that happens. Unfortunately it is rare.

I will leave you be.

One reasoning should have been enough with you, but you are not reasoning. And now I understand where your heart is.

iSomeone
reply to post by amazing

 

What is it?

edited.

Just my thoughts. I'm not, per say, attacking the bible but I really think it should be changed.

once you understand that geneological theme you can understand all of the otherwise inexplicable things that happened in the OT. you can understand the masacres and other seemingly hateful and evil things in the OT were necessary and in most cases were made necessary by the proto-hebrews and hebrews failing to follow Gods instruction. add to that the other theme of the covenants and how they led to the validity of the crucifixion as the means of salvation. that God gave the laws and the ritual laws and set examples when people failed to follow them to make the law binding even to him so that eventually he could save his children on a technicality of his very own law that he could not violate because of his perfection.

a third thing people seem to not realize is that our mortal view of good and evil and gradients of good and evil are not shared from the spiritual plane. to wit; your death here is nothing to your soul when it is immortal in potential. a dead person here continues to exist as a spirit. whether an infant taken by accident or illness or crime. or an old man or an able bodied man or woman or a crone. so to God and those already in the spiritual realm a death here is barely worth noting. We cannot see it because we are spiritually blind. so when God commits an act against a mortal on earth in the old testament it is nothing of consequence to the victim or God. actually anyone who died prior to the crucifixion of Christ has a better chance of getting into heaven than we who live after the crucifixion do. it only is of concern to the living. and God is not behind every accident, natural disaster illness or calamity on earth. he does not interact except with his elect until the end of this age. Once Christ's mission was complete God had no need to continue an active role in daily events to the extent he had to in the Old Testament. We are currently in an age of mercy. he may intervene if you ask him to but he will not otherwise; again except for the elect who are parts of his plans for the end times. he is probably leading Putin forth again after holding Russia back for a time. and Putin will not be the only one he is placing in their final positions prior to the commencement of the end times.

iSomeone
I've been around awhile and have read a lot of inaccurate and slanderous information about the Bible on this form. It seems there is an unending attack on God's word from all quarters, not the least being so-called followers of it, who twist it to no end. Of course, without a doubt, a lot of dabblers in the occult have been mislead into believing lies about it and happily spread lies as well about it. We can really go on for hours about all of the inaccurate, and slanderous things that have been said about it, mostly from uninformed and prejudiced people, sometimes from people who intentionally lie. Whatever the case a lot of misinformation is out there.

Anyway I thought I'd make this post to point out a few major blunders people have when reading the Bible and judging God.

(ETA: Well, really most these people have never read the Bible, they usually rely on what other uniformed people, who may sound intelligent say).


The first misconception is that Jehovah God, the Father and Creator of his only-begotten son, and first creation (by means of whom he created all other things both seen and unseen) put Jesus to death. That he was the one that sacrificed as if he was evil.

Couldnt show me where in this ol bible of yours we see Jesus as the first creation of God...

Talk about butchering the bible.

iSomeone
reply to post by Akragon

 

Actually the word for Hades in Hebrew is Hell in Greek, and that is how the word is translated in the King James Version of the Bible.

You are correct that Hellfire dogma is pagan and false. And there are better words to translate the word into English. For example, instead of hell, or hades it could be translated "tomb" or "common grave" much better.

And, after reasoning this little bit with you, I can see how you reason. I respect it, as you have the right to reason the way you do.

But I have come to the conclusions I have not because someone spoon-fed them to me, or because of what someone else told me.

But all of the arguments you have given me, I have seen a hundred times over. And I have seen many more. I was hoping you would give me something I was not familiar with. I really enjoy when that happens. Unfortunately it is rare.

I will leave you be.

One reasoning should have been enough with you, but you are not reasoning. And now I understand where your heart is.

No my friend you have no idea where my heart is... again, if you look past your assumptions of me you may see the truth

Hades, is considered a place where the dead dwell... Not to be confused with Hell which is a complete myth fabricated by the fathers of the church to scare people into conversion...

You can't twist words to mean something more to your liking or to fit your theology....

Hades in Hebrew is Sheol... or at least that is the parallel, and in greek it is akin to Tartarus... different places, which hold different understandings to each belief system... none of which is equivalent to Dante's hell as Christians love to preach about

Probably a good idea to give up anyways though... I've covered maybe 10 at the most and theres literally hundreds of contradictions...

Though you might see where your heart lies by looking in a mirror... assuming much of others... yet patting yourself on the back as being holier then thou...

*shakes head*

when you see a contradiction it is usually an error in your understanding. its like the creation narrative. a skeptic notes that the day of creation of man is different and then he dances with glee because he has found a contradiction. because seeing a contradiction is what he desires as a weapon against the faithful (if the faithful are ignorant of the word to the extent they can be beguiled by a persuasive opponent of the word.)

but before your victory dance exhausts you skeptic; note that in the original manuscripts the two Adams have a difference in articles and as used denote the creation of mankind on day 6 and Adam the man on day 8.

once you know this you also know that mankind predated Adam by at least two epochs of time. where Cain found a wife is no conflict nor is it incest. unfortunately for some bigots the two separate creations of man are also not occasions for racism either because God declared both good. in fact He declared the 6th day creation "very good."

but go ahead and continue to call it a conflict. in order to be a fundamentalist you have to be able to read the fundamentals and not use as a basis misinterpretations of the bible or out of context abuse of the text.

borntowatch


Couldnt show me where in this ol bible of yours we see Jesus as the first creation of God...

Talk about butchering the bible.

(Colossians 1:15) 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

reply to post by stormbringer1701

when you see a contradiction it is usually an error in your understanding. its like the creation narrative. a skeptic notes that the day of creation of man is different and then he dances with glee because he has found a contradiction. because seeing a contradiction is what he desires as a weapon against the faithful

That's an interesting statement considering "the faithful" or at least the ones who take the bible as the "litteral" word of God... meaning it is without error, are usually the most bigoted, self centered, intolerant people you will ever meet...

Have you ever heard the saying "if you're using the bible to hurt people, You're using it wrong"

Akragon
reply to post by stormbringer1701

 

when you see a contradiction it is usually an error in your understanding. its like the creation narrative. a skeptic notes that the day of creation of man is different and then he dances with glee because he has found a contradiction. because seeing a contradiction is what he desires as a weapon against the faithful

That's an interesting statement considering "the faithful" or at least the ones who take the bible as the "litteral" word of God... meaning it is without error, are usually the most bigoted, self centered, intolerant people you will ever meet...

Have you ever heard the saying "if you're using the bible to hurt people, You're using it wrong"

actually the bible is heavy and suitable for hand to hand combat.

look there are plenty of knucklehead christians. not as many though as christian haters portray it but yeah there are idiots in the ranks. like that pin head that took a verse out of context and founded a snake handling cult. or that phelps family of ghouls. but in large part Christians are nice people even when they do not understand the bible perfectly themselves.

the word is without error. however if you conflate the word with translations of the word then yes there are errors in it. but more often the "errors" are out of context reductio ad absurdem logical fallacy attacks by people who do not care that they have ignored the proper context and proper grammatical diagramming of the sentences. known as dividing the word.

2 Timothy 2:15 (King James Version)


King James Version (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

and even in the case where there are genuine translation problems (and there are a few doozies) there are tools to get around that. concordances, interlinear bibles, copies of the original manuscripts in the original languages, and companion bibles and scholarly commentaries and books explaining Hebraisms and ancient figures of speech and biblical symbolism and numerology.

reply to post by stormbringer1701

actually the bible is heavy and suitable for hand to hand combat.

best thing I've heard so far... a star for you lol

look there are plenty of knucklehead christians. not as many though as christian haters portray it but yeah there are idiots in the ranks. like that pin head that took a verse out of context and founded a snake handling cult. or that phelps family of ghouls. but in large part Christians are nice people even when they do not understand the bible perfectly themselves.

true...

the word is without error.

Not true...

the word is without error. however if you conflate the word with translations of the word then yes there are errors in it. but more often the "errors" are out of context reductio ad absurdem logical fallacy attacks by people who do not care that they have ignored the proper context and proper grammatical diagramming of the sentences. know as dividing the word.

In context with the rest of the chapters, there are still errors & contradictions...

and even in the case where there are genuine translation problems (and thre are a few doozies) there are tools to get around that. concordances, interlinear bibles, copies of the original manuscripts in the original languages, and companion bibles and scholarly commentaries and books.

ALL of which will still show there are errors and contradictions in the bible...

and there are no "original manuscripts" everything that exists in the closest to "original" form are copies of copies of copies, translated from three, and sometimes four languages that don't translate very well into English...

An even using the closest to "original" texts, there are still contradictions and errors, even additions to the originals...

nope a translation error that creates an error or ambiguity in a modern translation does not equal a error in the original MSS. and you know or should know that the manuscripts used to compile the KJV are still in the british museum. that means that these original texts are available to check on the good editors of the KJV and other version's editors.

i do not know why you would make a semantical argument about original manuscripts when you know what are referred to as original manuscripts pertain to the creation of the kjv.

furthermore in the case of the old testament because of the nature of hebrew every line has a checksum. it cannot be edited or typo'ed without it showing up as a checksum error.

and of course things like ancient fragmentary copies of isaiah show practically no divergence from our modern copies of it.

reply to post by stormbringer1701


Tell yourself whatever you like man...

Its nothing more then dangerous to believe the bible has no errors... Such a belief promotes the idea that its "all true, the word of God" which means every bit should be followed in accordance to its own rules...

And nothing good comes from that theology...

Remember what Jesus said.... Know a tree by its fruits