American flag shirts banned at school on Cinco de Mayo

reply to post by kaylaluv


What you are implying and what the 9th circuit court decided has major implications beyond your imagination. This type of ruling opens the door for things far more dangerous than some high school kids getting into a little brawl because someone got their little feelings hurt.

This ruling is completely unconstitutional, the 1st Amendment guarantees the right to free speech whether people LIKE IT OR NOT. It sets the precedent for just about any other type of restriction you can imagine.

Perhaps you should do a little thought and a little homework on how things like this work instead of trying to defend an emotional standpoint without looking at the bigger picture.

reply to post by doompornjunkie


What a bunch of BS. We are talking about students at a school. Do you know that all kinds of clothing/accessories/hair are not allowed at schools? At my daughter's public school, students were not allowed to dye their hair unnatural colors. They were not allowed to wear pornographic t-shirts. They were not allowed to have tatoos, or jewelry worn in unusual piercings. Not just on one day, either. All days of the school year. What you wore off school grounds was your business, but what you wore on school grounds was their business. That's because it is the school administration's job to avoid distractions and inappropriate behavior on campus.

Nice try at deflecting. This isn't about freedom of speech. What this is REALLY about is animosity towards a certain ethnicity. That is what these students were involved with. The school admin was correct to nip it. Wear your flag shirt all you want during Cinco de Mayo on your own, but on school grounds, you gotta abide by their rules.

reply to post by juspassinthru


Then perhaps you should read more. The fact is Cinco De Mayo has never been an exclusively Mexican holiday. Since the 1860's it has been celebrated here in the United States primarily by citizens of Mexican decent. Historically it is a holiday that has been celebrated mostly by Americans. It is a regional cultural holiday that has been becoming more mainstream no different than Halloween, St. Patrick's day or Octoberfest (what can I say Americans like an excuse to celebrate). There isn't anything about it to actually protest unless you are a small minded individual that can't stand that other people have accomplished great things worth recognizing. I don't know what to tell you if you can't wrap your head around it. These kids aren't trying to express pride in anything, their actions have been carefully constructed to incite a negative reaction for no legitimate reason beyond those that primarily celebrate it are considered as something less than American.

kaylaluv
Does anyone know why the students want to wear the flag shirts during Cinco De Mayo? There's no reason other than to start some sh## - which is EXACTLY what those students had in mind. Their message is, "Screw you, wetbacks. We don't give a damn about your stupid Mexican holiday." If you think that is not what those students are trying to say with the flag shirts, then you are either very naive or very stupid.

You know what my feeling is? If you are going to hate on Hispanics that much, and if you are going to be allowed to flaunt in their face how much you hate and disrespect them on the ONE day of the year they celebrate their heritage - then you shouldn't be allowed to ever eat Mexican food. It's not your food, it's their food - it came from their country - not from America. If you hate them and their country so much, never eat a taco, burrito or enchilada again. No tortillas for you. No nachos, no margaritas, no tequila. It's not yours - it's theirs.

So by wearing an American Flag t-shirt is starting trouble. Well let me ask you this: Who are these Mexican kids to get angered by such an image? The hate came from the Mexican kids who bullied and downgraded the non-Mexican kids to the point where they felt like second-class citizens in their own school. They wore those T-shirts to say they are not ashamed, they will not cower, they will not acquiesce to their abuse. They will stand proud of who they are even as the "chollos" roam the halls in packs during Cinco de Mayo, unfurling their Mexican flags and literally shoving into the other kids faces as they berate them and shove them around, as was reported. But I guess standing strong in the face of those kind of thuggish tactics is considered "starting some sh##" to you. I guess you would only be happy if those poor kids just knelt down off to the side of the hallway and let them pass however they would please.

reply to post by kaylaluv


I agree. The Constitution does not apply to what is mandated at a school because in this case we are dealing with students - minors - those that have not reached adulthood.

The Constitution guarantees the right to vote - but NOT to minors. The Constitution guarantees the right to bear arms - but NOT to minors. The Constitution guarantees the right to privacy - but NOT to minors. And on and on. A child is NOT equal to an adult by no means.

Rights are not an issue here, but fairness is, so I would agree that the dress code should be stricter, and these children should learn that they only have basic rights, and all the rights of the Constitution will be afforded to them in due time, but NOT today.

Gat the point?

kaylaluv
reply to post by doompornjunkie

 

What a bunch of BS. We are talking about students at a school. Do you know that all kinds of clothing/accessories/hair are not allowed at schools? At my daughter's public school, students were not allowed to dye their hair unnatural colors. They were not allowed to wear pornographic t-shirts. They were not allowed to have tatoos, or jewelry worn in unusual piercings. Not just on one day, either. All days of the school year. What you wore off school grounds was your business, but what you wore on school grounds was their business. That's because it is the school administration's job to avoid distractions and inappropriate behavior on campus.

Nice try at deflecting. This isn't about freedom of speech. What this is REALLY about is animosity towards a certain ethnicity. That is what these students were involved with. The school admin was correct to nip it. Wear your flag shirt all you want during Cinco de Mayo on your own, but on school grounds, you gotta abide by their rules.

edit on 1-3-2014 by kaylaluv because: (no reason given)

The ruling was about the AMERICAN FLAG NOT BEING ALLOWED. Mexican flag is still ok! It is a pure and simple case of shutting up a viewpoint that people did not like! BIGGER PICTURE... This does set precedence for further snuffing of ideas and speech be it vocal or visual.

Oh and the porno t-shirt thing is the real BS, its called public indecency. Comparable to going around and cussing at people.

lakesidepark
reply to post by kaylaluv

 

I agree. The Constitution does not apply to what is mandated at a school because in this case we are dealing with students - minors - those that have not reached adulthood.

The Constitution guarantees the right to vote - but NOT to minors. The Constitution guarantees the right to bear arms - but NOT to minors. The Constitution guarantees the right to privacy - but NOT to minors. And on and on. A child is NOT equal to an adult by no means.

Rights are not an issue here, but fairness is, so I would agree that the dress code should be stricter, and these children should learn that they only have basic rights, and all the rights of the Constitution will be afforded to them in due time, but NOT today.

Gat the point?

Did you even bother to read the article??????

"The three-judge panel unanimously decided the officials’ need to protect the safety of their students outweighed the students’ freedom of expression rights."

Looks to me that the judges did say that the students have freedom of expression. Also where the # in the Constitution does it say you have to be 18 for it to matter??

Got that point?

What you said regarding the 1st 2nd and 4th amendments is so incorrect and stupid its not even funny. Its sad and pathetic, especially if you are an American.. shameful.

kaylaluv
You don't have to recognize it any more than you ave to recognize St. Patrick's day.

Except the Irish aren't:

Flying their flags over American flags. Link

Are trying to claim the U.S. as theirs. Link

Don't have special interests groups trying to take your country. Link

And of course, my kids aren't being denied to wear a T-Shirt with THEIR countries flag on it during St. Patrick's Day.

Having heard about this case when it first came out there are a few things that can be stated:

Whenever there is a case that involves the freedom of speech in and around a school district, the courts have very specific guidelines that was set in a precedent from a 1965 case: Tinker V. Des Moines Independent Community School District. In that case the court decided that there would be a test that it would apply to determine if the merits of the case. In this test, often called the Tinker Test, it is used to determine if the actions or speech of the student would disrupt the education that was going on in the school or not. That if it was determined that there would be a problem with the education process, then the school could legislate and restrict the freedom of speech to a point.

In subsequent decisions, items such as Bethel School District V. Fraser, here again it was determined that if speech did not disrupt or undermine the school, it was allowed. In Hazelwood V. Kulmeier, it was determined that a school could regulate freedom of speech. In Perry v. Fredrick, it upheld a schools decision to limit that speech, by determining that the school had all right to ask/demand that a student remove a shirt, as it was causing a disruption to the learning in the school.

Now there is the legal precedence that has been set, and in this case, the district in question, has had a history of trouble between the Latino and white students, and in an attempt to stem the violence, have determined not to allow for the wearing of a flag on that day. While it is considered in bad taste, the question must ask, why is the school board and superintendent still in their position? After all if the parents feel that this is not within the interest of the students or their ideas, why did they not remove said administration in an election and put people in that are more in line with their idea, or on the day in question, just pull their children out, that way there can be no dispute or question about what the students wear?

sdcigarpig
Having heard about this case when it first came out there are a few things that can be stated:

Whenever there is a case that involves the freedom of speech in and around a school district, the courts have very specific guidelines that was set in a precedent from a 1965 case: Tinker V. Des Moines Independent Community School District. In that case the court decided that there would be a test that it would apply to determine if the merits of the case. In this test, often called the Tinker Test, it is used to determine if the actions or speech of the student would disrupt the education that was going on in the school or not. That if it was determined that there would be a problem with the education process, then the school could legislate and restrict the freedom of speech to a point.

In subsequent decisions, items such as Bethel School District V. Fraser, here again it was determined that if speech did not disrupt or undermine the school, it was allowed. In Hazelwood V. Kulmeier, it was determined that a school could regulate freedom of speech. In Perry v. Fredrick, it upheld a schools decision to limit that speech, by determining that the school had all right to ask/demand that a student remove a shirt, as it was causing a disruption to the learning in the school.

Now there is the legal precedence that has been set, and in this case, the district in question, has had a history of trouble between the Latino and white students, and in an attempt to stem the violence, have determined not to allow for the wearing of a flag on that day. While it is considered in bad taste, the question must ask, why is the school board and superintendent still in their position? After all if the parents feel that this is not within the interest of the students or their ideas, why did they not remove said administration in an election and put people in that are more in line with their idea, or on the day in question, just pull their children out, that way there can be no dispute or question about what the students wear?

Excellent post.

What if the non Hispanic students find that the Cinco De Mayo clothing (mexican flag and what not) to be disruptive or offensive given these racial tensions? Taking sides is insane. It has to be all or nothing. In this case it is divided amongst racial lines. No American flag then no Mexican flag.

Auricom

kaylaluv
You don't have to recognize it any more than you ave to recognize St. Patrick's day.

Except the Irish aren't:

Flying their flags over American flags. Link

Oh I'm sure if I looked hard enough, I could find one dumb Irish guy who did the same thing.

Are trying to claim the U.S. as theirs. Link

From your link:

The Mexican-American Legal Defense and Education Fund (MALDEF), the National Council of La Raza (NCLR), Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan (MEChA), and the National Immigration Forum (NIF) whose names imply grassroots organizations reflecting the will of American Hispanics, do not represent mainstream American Hispanic opinion. Rather, they speak only in their own best interests, favoring the mass immigration that gives them more constituents they can then profess to represent. Polls show that Hispanic-Americans, like all Americans, support stronger enforcement of our immigration laws.

Are you saying that all the Hispanic students at this school are members of La Raza? Can you prove that? And what about La Raza? How are they any different than the people who came to America and claimed it as theirs despite the Native American Indians being there first?

And of course, my kids aren't being denied to wear a T-Shirt with THEIR countries flag on it during St. Patrick's Day.

I haven't heard about any non-Irish kids trying to antagonize a group of Irish kids on St. Patrick's day. Have you? If they did, I'm sure school administrators would nip that in the bud as well.

kaylaluv
Does anyone know why the students want to wear the flag shirts during Cinco De Mayo? There's no reason other than to start some sh## - which is EXACTLY what those students had in mind. Their message is, "Screw you, wetbacks. We don't give a damn about your stupid Mexican holiday." If you think that is not what those students are trying to say with the flag shirts, then you are either very naive or very stupid.

You know what my feeling is? If you are going to hate on Hispanics that much, and if you are going to be allowed to flaunt in their face how much you hate and disrespect them on the ONE day of the year they celebrate their heritage - then you shouldn't be allowed to ever eat Mexican food. It's not your food, it's their food - it came from their country - not from America. If you hate them and their country so much, never eat a taco, burrito or enchilada again. No tortillas for you. No nachos, no margaritas, no tequila. It's not yours - it's theirs.

Ummm, you do realize that one of those kids who "wanted to start some sh##" was a "wetback" as you put it?

So are you claiming that he hates himself?

feldercarb
I have been to Mexico and asked about this holiday. As far as I can tell, no one in Mexico celebrates this holiday. This holiday was promoted by the liquor industry to sell more booze. I think, part of the problem is that one of the teachers was trying to hijack the nature of the holiday for Mexican-American pride. Thus, trying to turn the holiday from it's original intention into a source of pride for Mexican Americans. Unfortunately, that teacher never went to Mexico to find out the truth about the holiday.

Cinco de Mayo celebrates the victory of the underdog Mexican Army over a much larger and better trained French force, and you're absolutely right that they don't care about it much in Mexico. We just made it a thing to eat chips and salsa and drink cheap beer. I guess it's now also an excuse for illegal immigrants to get mad at folks who are proud to American.

But maybe it's like we celebrate St. Patrick's Day with corned beef and cabbage which isn't an authentic Irish dish at all, this is just an American way or celebrating Americans of Mexican descent. As such, it shouldn't be offensive to wear an American flag.

I really hate to bust the bubbles here on an explosive target.
We have to realize to "Begin" with that no matter what is thought
that thoes peeps need to remember where they are. In the USA.
Not any where else. Here on visa, not meant to make changes to
the country. Naturalized citizen, took an oath to support and uphold
the constitution of the USA. Born here, same game. All for remembering
your roots, but before that, you are still in the USA and not anywhere
else. Facts make the talk, bull# walks. No room for discussion about it.

I can't understand the point of defending this nonsense. If the kids want to use the flag in protest..fine ..go somewhere outside captive audience outlines and protest. Expect to be confronted and very possibly hurt, depending on where in this nation one chooses protest in THAT offensive and combative a way ...but that's the breaks of free speech in America.

Now I had to stop and think a moment here...and there is a comparison that would bring reaction from me as strong as these children got from responsible authority here.

I had a father in law until recently who hailed from Jolly 'Ol after a career in Her Majesty's Royal bullet stopper corps and a second less exciting Government job he double pensioned on in the end. He had a superior attitude about Brits vs. Yanks that didn't know how or when to quit.

Say...I had myself a 4th of July shindig and invited the crusty old fart to come and darken the day with his feisty presence. Not a problem so far... it's Independence Day and we're *IN* the nation being celebrated. It wouldn't surprised me if that guy had shown up in a big blazing T-Shirt with the English national flag...not to 'protest', anymore than THIS was for Cinco De Mayo. No.. It would be SAID to protest..but it would be just to piss off the people..and I'd probably have punched him in the nose for it, had it happened.

There is a time for everything.....and throwing the US flag in the face of others, on THEIR DAY....and perhaps the ONE day our flag would be furthest from appreciated by that segment of people...IS NOT the time, IMO. This wasn't free speech, it was freedom to be offensive.

Rude/Crude and Socially unacceptable: 1
Common Sense and Human Decency: 0

At least the score isn't tied anymore.

reply to post by txinfidel


This says it all:

The school had a history of problems between white and Latino students on that day, and also had a documented history of violence between gang members and between racial groups.

www.foxnews.com...

There is a difference between freedom of expression and incitement to violence.

Wrabbit2000
I can't understand the point of defending this nonsense. If the kids want to use the flag in protest..fine ..go somewhere outside captive audience outlines and protest. Expect to be confronted and very possibly hurt, depending on where in this nation one chooses protest in THAT offensive and combative a way ...but that's the breaks of free speech in America.

Now I had to stop and think a moment here...and there is a comparison that would bring reaction from me as strong as these children got from responsible authority here.

I had a father in law until recently who hailed from Jolly 'Ol after a career in Her Majesty's Royal bullet stopper corps and a second less exciting Government job he double pensioned on in the end. He had a superior attitude about Brits vs. Yanks that didn't know how or when to quit.

Say...I had myself a 4th of July shindig and invited the crusty old fart to come and darken the day with his feisty presence. Not a problem so far... it's Independence Day and we're *IN* the nation being celebrated. It wouldn't surprised me if that guy had shown up in a big blazing T-Shirt with the English national flag...not to 'protest', anymore than THIS was for Cinco De Mayo. No.. It would be SAID to protest..but it would be just to piss off the people..and I'd probably have punched him in the nose for it, had it happened.

There is a time for everything.....and throwing the US flag in the face of others, on THEIR DAY....and perhaps the ONE day our flag would be furthest from appreciated by that segment of people...IS NOT the time, IMO. This wasn't free speech, it was freedom to be offensive.

Rude/Crude and Socially unacceptable: 1
Common Sense and Human Decency: 0

At least the score isn't tied anymore.

edit on 1-3-2014 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)

Although I do enjoy your posts and the effort you put into them, I do disagree here.

What you stated would be comparable to an American in Mexico being upset because Mexicans were wearing Mexican flags on the 4th of July.

Wanna celebrate a Mexican holiday without any foreign influence??? try celebrating it in Mexico.

doompornjunkie

What if the non Hispanic students find that the Cinco De Mayo clothing (mexican flag and what not) to be disruptive or offensive given these racial tensions? Taking sides is insane. It has to be all or nothing. In this case it is divided amongst racial lines. No American flag then no Mexican flag.

We are talking about ONE DAY in the school. At home, you can wear what you want. All the other days in the school, you can wear the American flag shirt to your heart's content. How is that not fair to the non-Hispanics?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Sorry, comparable situation to your hypothetical would be if these students were in Puebla, Mexico, celebrating Cinco de Mayo and the white kids showed up wearing French t-shirts.

What you described is people celebrating having fought off an aggressor country, and then someone comes to their party, in their country, wearing the emblem of said aggressor.

This is different. These are kids, many of whom may not even be legal residents (or are the children of illegal residents) of the host country celebrating a battle that their ancestral country doesn't even celebrate much with the emblem of that country, and they are getting upset because some other kids show up in the emblem of the host country which had nothing to do with either side of the battle.

reply to post by doompornjunkie

Although I do enjoy your posts and the effort you put into them, I do disagree here.

What you stated would be comparable to an American in Mexico being upset because Mexicans were wearing Mexican flags on the 4th of July.

Wanna celebrate a Mexican holiday without any foreign influence??? try celebrating it in Mexico.

You apparently failed to read what I said. I know I can be long at times, but I also choose my words and wording with great care and actually have been known to rewrite paragraphs a half dozen times, over little wording and implied meaning issues I didn't think were clear enough.

Mexicans wearing flags on the 4th is *NOT* comparable in any way. I don't care what Mexicans wear on the 4th...we didn't fight a bloody war and bitter losses with Mexico for that day to have meaning ..and in fact, never fought Mexico directly for OUR right to be a nation (Texans may understandably feel different...but it was the Republic of Texas back then, not the United States, per say and details define the topic). The direct comparison is a Brit wearing a Union Jack on the 4th, and wearing it with attitude of protest.... That is, across the board, the closest comparison for how I could imagine a Mexican would feel to see a US flag on a day..and perhaps one of the only days...That symbol is absolutely NOT what they most want to see for the purpose of the day.

Now of course, Cino De Mayo is technically to commemorate the defeat of the French in 1862, not the battles with the newly forming United States of the time. However, France is a several thousand miles East and not one much thought of these days for current headlines of strife and conflict, especially between Mexicans and Americans.

Into this..steps a Bozo or two who figure the flag isn't just a symbol I'd fight and die for the principles behind, but a weapon to clobber other students with on their day of celebration. Well... The kids can stuff their protest choice. I respect the flag more than I do their right to shove it in other people's faces to piss them off........whatever babbling the kids used to justify doing just that.

That's my take...I believe protest morphs into starting a fight, when it's not even about anything but "I can do this...because *I CAN* and if you'r offended...GOOD!!". That is all I see having been said by this "choice of protest".