Bible Alterations and Converting the Sun Worshippers.

windword
reply to post by DeadSeraph

 

Well, I can't speak for the OP, but the title of the thread: "Bible Alterations and Converting the Sun Worshipers", at least the last part, Converting the Sun Worshipers, was, in my opinion, the goal, and paganism was deliberately and systematically inserted into Christian, narrative, ritual and doctrine.

edit on 28-2-2014 by windword because: (no reason given)

I think that much I can agree on. Even adjensen has acquiesced on that point, and conceded the fact that the catholic church made efforts to integrate itself with pagan traditions and holidays to make the process of conversion easier. I think that Constantine's history and pagan practices also seem to fly in the face of the roman catholic church's party line that he was a true Christian (it would seem he was devoutly pagan, even on his death bed).

That does not indicate however that Christianity itself (before the council of nicaea or constantine) was based on solar worship. All the evidence seems to indicate otherwise, and I have noticed that you constantly draw parallels where none exist by mentioning passages in the new testament where the sun is alluded to in simile and proclaiming it is evidence of sun worship when nothing could be further from the truth. It seems like a deliberate effort on your part to muddy the waters, but given your horrendous experiences in your youth which you have shared with us, I can't say I blame you much. I think maybe you are just trying to strip what you see as the source of your abuses of any legitimacy it may have, because of your own pain (which is a natural reaction).

At any rate, it's important in this discussion to make the distinction here, because we need to understand what the claims are exactly before we can debate their veracity. In that sense, I think you are also somewhat confused, since I have seen you claim elsewhere that Jesus the Nazarene existed, while at other times claiming there is no historical Jesus. If he existed, then he clearly was not a sun worshiper (nor were his disciples).

reply to post by DeadSeraph

I think that much I can agree on. Even adjensen has acquiesced on that point).

Great! Now, it goes to the extent of the perversion of the message, and how the old and the new evolved into the new age Universal religion, Catholicism.

That does not indicate however that Christianity itself (before the council of nicaea or constantine) was based on solar worship.

There was no coherent religion called Christianity. You had all kinds of beliefs.

All the evidence seems to indicate otherwise, and I have noticed that you constantly draw parallels where none exist by mentioning passages in the new testament where the sun is alluded to in simile and proclaiming it is evidence of sun worship when nothing could be further from the truth.

I have no idea what you're basing your opinion on.

It seems like a deliberate effort on your part to muddy the waters,

Example please?

but given your horrendous experiences in your youth which you have shared with us,

Horrendous?

I can't say I blame you much. I think maybe you are just trying to strip what you see as the source of your abuses of any legitimacy it may have, because of your own pain (which is a natural reaction).

You can keep your armchair psychologist's opinion and your sanctimonious empathy, thank you, and turn your focus from me personally to the subject being discussed, the influence of the pagan solar deities on the narrative and doctrine of Christianity.

At any rate, it's important in this discussion to make the distinction here, because we need to understand what the claims are exactly before we can debate their veracity. In that sense, I think you are also somewhat confused, since I have seen you claim elsewhere that Jesus the Nazarene existed, while at other times claiming there is no historical Jesus. If he existed, then he clearly was not a sun worshiper (nor were his disciples).

There is no evidence that Jesus "Christ" ever existed.
I believe that a man called Jesus the Nazorean might have existed.
Over all, I believe that the biblical character of "Jesus Christ" never actually existed, that Jesus Christ is a composite figure, I think that the majority of the biblical narrative of Jesus is allegorical.

adjensen
reply to post by benrl

 

With things like the Crusades, inquisition, its a church responsible for killing its own.

How were the Crusades, an effort to retake the Holy Lands from the Muslims, "killing its own"?

Also has a seat on the UN, theres more that tie the RCC with the description given.

Vatican City (an independent nation) is a non-member of the UN with observational privileges. See: United Nations Permanent Observers

How is getting your followers to fight a war Christian?

Jesus was pretty clear his kingdom was not here on earth.

And that goes for both responses.

reply to post by Gryphon66



The feast of Sol Invictus was the attempt by the Roman emperor Aurelian to reform the cult of Sol, the Roman sun god, and and reintroduce it to his people, inaugurating Sol's temple and holding games for the first time in A.D. 274. Not only was this festival not annual, it also cannot be historically documented as having been established on December 25 by Aurelian

Commentary on the book of Daniel (c. A.D. 204) that the Lord’s birth was believed to have occurred on that day:

For the first advent of our Lord in the flesh, when he was born in Bethlehem, was December 25th, Wednesday, while Augustus was in his forty-second year, but from Adam, five thousand and five hundred years. He suffered in the thirty-third year, March 25th, Friday, the eighteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, while Rufus and Roubellion were Consuls.

The reference to Adam can be understood in light of another of Hyppolytus’ writings, the Chronicon, where he explains that Jesus was born nine months after the anniversary of Creation. According to his calculations, the world was created on the vernal equinox, March 25, which would mean Jesus was born nine months later, on December 25.

While these explanations of how December 25 came to be the date of Christmas are all plausible, we know one thing for sure: The evidence that this day held a special significance to Christians predates the proof of a supposed celebration of Sol Invictus or other pagan deities on that day.

Gryphon66
I don't think anyone would argue with the idea that the various Sun Gods are often depicted at the center of the celestial zodiac:

Helios

I would dispute your assumptions that "the various sun gods are often depicted at the center of a celestial zodiac".

The pic you posted above of a ‘Charioteer’ driving horses DOES NOT represent a sun god, but is taken from Plato’s Chariot ALLEGORY . It states the myth itself is not plato’s, it being ancient even for him, perhaps coming from Egypt or Mesopotamia, and that he adapted and reworked it.

Basically, the chariot Allegory describes the soul figuratively as a chariot, driven by a charioteer, and powered by two horses: a noble white horse and an ignoble dark one. It occurs in the context of an allegory in which the chariot attempts to rise beyond the heavens, there to behold divine visions, but often doesn't succeed, instead falling to earth. But there is a process by which it may ascend again.

A literal meaning by Plato seems unlikely. I shall propose three levels of interpretation: (1) a psychological level, such that ascension and fall correspond to the continuing effort to organize and recollect the personality or mind; (2) a level that corresponds to the contemplative journey, with its characteristic periods of progress and seeming setbacks--dark nights, aridity, and feelings of abandonment; and (3) a more basic religious level that corresponds to divination and salvation of the soul.

Source:

The Charioteer allegory depicts the plight of the Soul, torn between materialism and its source. The Chariot is also linked to the mind and the senses in the involutionary process of man. The senses are depicted by the animals around the zodiac. When the mind and emotions are conquered, then the evolutionary experience turns the soul’s attention inwards back toward its “True Home”.

The symbolism of the sun as our true home, or God, is based on the Sanskrit term. Ha which means Sun, the primal Yang creative force. Tha meaning Moon in Sanskrit, making Hatha Yoga literally “Union of Sun and Moon” or Union of Yang and Yin. That is the true meaning…..

The story of Noah’s Ark has a similar meaning ALEGORICALLY, the fact is the Ark itself is a symbol of the human body which contains up to seven pairs of animal QUALITIES in our makeup. Even our Zodiac is made up of animal pictures and nearly all the vedic writings and illustrations depict man in a circle surrounded by the zodiac signs. Even Medical Astrology assigns certain zodiac signs to various organs. For instance Aries (the ram) has rulership of the head, Leo (the Lion) has rulership of the Solar Plexus, while Sagittarius (half man centaur) has rulership of the thighs (all fire signs). This forms a triune arrangement in the body also called the law of three. So this is the key to unlock esoteric knowledge.

reply to post by Gryphon66


The gloriole denotes to artistic expression and has been like this for thousands of years BC. In Christianity artwork the gloriole only came in to being 400 year AD. Different versions of gloriole depict different statuses of holiness.

This is simply EVERYTHING I've been looking for in a nutshell! Thanks man cant wait t'ill my christian friends see this one! Haha

The allegation that Jesus is depicted as the sun god are ludicrous to say the least and pure disinformation at its best. This Author Dorothy M Murdock has written a book “Jesus as the Sun throughout History”. She includes some information on her website as to how she came to this conclusion Source:

Dorothy M. Murdock,[1][2] also known by her pen name Acharya S,[3][4] is an American author and proponent of the Christ myth theory.[5] She writes books, and operates a website named Truth be Known. She argues that Christianity is founded on earlier myths and the characters depicted in Christianity are based upon Roman, Greek, Egyptian, and other myths.[6] Her theories have received negative commentaries from academic scholars.[7][8][9]

In her various books, she describes the New Testament as a work of mythic fiction within a historical setting. She claims that the story of Jesus Christ is a retelling of various pagan myths, representing "astrotheology", or the story of the Sun, and also incorporates the science of archaeoastronomy. She asserts the pagans understood the stories to be myths, but Christians obliterated evidence to the contrary by destroying and controlling literature when they attained control of the Roman Empire, which led to widespread illiteracy in the ancient world, ensuring the mythical nature of Christ's story was hidden.[10]

Murdock compares Jesus' history to other "savior-gods" such as Mithra, Horus, Adonis, Krishna,Quetzalcoatl, and Odin, claiming the similarities result from a common source: the myth of the sun-god or solar deity.[11] Her theories resemble those that were abandoned by mainstream scholars a century ago. [12]

Acharya S was criticized by Joel McDurmon, in part for the premise that Jesus was based on ancient sun gods because of the modern English homophones son and sun. Source:

Ms Murdock received negative comments on – Archarya S as a Hindu Guru Source:

reply to post by iRoyalty


What good is it to throw out all of a book? If it makes someone a better person, or leads one to know God why try to prevent that in them?

There is a saying, there is enough light for one to see. Why do you wish to stamp out the light another has to see by?

If someone is inclined to evil things they will never see that light, but one who looks with a pure heart will always see it. The evil person also would be evil with or without the book.

Chriam:

Helios, and Apollo, and Sol, and any other number of sungods are shown hundreds of times with common elements of the crown, the chariot, and usually four white horses. Archeologists, historians, and traditions beyond number agree upon this point. The image even appears in Hellenized Jewish temples, demonstrating the pervasiveness of the image at the time.

If you have any direct classical references to these specific images to support your claims that they represent a Platonic (or any other) psychopomp, I'd be glad to review.

Lonewolf:

I don't know whether you began or ended your research regarding Dies Natalis Solis Invicti with Wikipedia alone, but the celebration certainly did not "begin" with Aurelian or with early "Jesus worshippers." December 25 is the approximate day of the Winter Solstice as calculated in the official Roman City calendar as instituted by Julius Caesar in 45 BCE, and was known for centuries as the first noticable day that the sun begins to rise from the lowest point in the sky and be "born again." The Mithratics in Persia honored the Solstice as the "birthday of the Sun." The Greeks celebrated the day as Lenaia and it was dedicated to Dionysus.

In the time of subsistence cultures, the midpoint of Winter was extraordinarily important, as they were given hope that their stores would last, and that the light of all life (the Sun, Sol, Helios, Attis, or Christ) had conquered dark and death and cold and would return. That didn't start with the "Christians" by any stretch of the imagination.

Your attempt to limit the gloriole (or halo) and the "sun ray crown" just doesn't wash. It is obvious that the central figure in even the few Zodiacal examples I gave is wearing the 5-rayed (or many rayed) crown of the Sun. The fact that Jesus is portrayed in that same pose, location and representation seems to make the intent clear to anyone who is not bound by their own religious beliefs.

Actually, to my mind, the close association of "Jesus" with the ancient sun-gods makes Him more real, rather than less real. He becomes the incarnation at his time of one of the oldest and most hopeful reverential symbols of Humanity.

The connections are inescapable though. Look at the few pictures I provided. Just look.

reply to post by windword


Guess I hit a nerve.

Oh good lord, Murdock is hardly the first to make these connections, for example:

“The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the sun, in which they put a man called Christ in the place of the sun, and pay him the adoration originally payed to the sun.” (Thomas Paine, 1790s)

"Prayers offered up in Christian worship in the earliest days of the faith were addressed to 'Our Lord the Sun,' evidencing that 'primitive' Christians were quite in the spirit of Pagan forms and ideologies."
(Alvin Boyd Kuhn, 1940s-50s)


Not to mention, in wider regard to the General Topic: The Church Fathers

Jerome:

"How it may be Lawful and Fitting to use Falsehood as a Medicine, and for the Benefit of those who Want to be Deceived." (12th Book of Evangelical Preparation, Chapter 32)

Constantine's Man, Eusebius:

"We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity." (Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 8, chapter 2.)

John Chrysostom

"Do you see the advantage of deceit? ...

For great is the value of deceit, provided it be not introduced with a mischievous intention. In fact action of this kind ought not to be called deceit, but rather a kind of good management, cleverness and skill, capable of finding out ways where resources fail, and making up for the defects of the mind ...

And often it is necessary to deceive, and to do the greatest benefits by means of this device, whereas he who has gone by a straight course has done great mischief to the person whom he has not deceived."

(Treatise On The Priesthood, Book 1)

Puhleeze.

Martin Luther decried this garbage as "lying for God."

chiram
The allegation that Jesus is depicted as the sun god are ludicrous to say the least and pure disinformation at its best.

But see, the problem is, this is only your personal statement of response to something. You offer no additional facts, no evidence to the contrary, no references to backup your claim. Are we just supposed to believe you, outright?

This Author Dorothy M Murdock has written a book “Jesus as the Sun throughout History”. She includes some information on her website as to how she came to this conclusion

Are you just now discovering Murdock? You haven't been at this particular item of interest long, have you?

Acharya S was criticized by Joel McDurmon, in part for the premise that Jesus was based on ancient sun gods because of the modern English homophones son and sun.

That fun little "verbal coincidence" is so small a part of Murdock's material as to be insignificant, though much is made of it by detractors. Why, because it's easy, and insipid, and thoughtless and demonstrates a second-rate intellect to do so, in my opinion.

You'd be much better served in your argument to pull out some of Dr. Bart Ehrman's critiques. He really doesn't like Murdock and he's got the academic chops to back that up, but then, as much as I admire his work in some ways, he's out to sell books as well, and his thesis requires an actual physical Jesus at some level, even though Ehrman is the first to admit that JC is nothing like the subsequent 2000 years of press have made him out to be.

Ms Murdock received negative comments on – Archarya S as a Hindu Guru Source:

Yes, Murdock has certainly stirred her share of pots in the last decade. She's an amateur scholar for certain, but she has reintroduced some very important questions into the modern dialogue. I find it funny that folks are so desperate to discredit her work, which to me, only indicates how dangerous to their own agendas some find it.

So, now, that you've discredited Murdock in your own mind, Chiram, do you have anything material to say about the mounds of evidence in this regard? Even what has been presented in this thread? Anything?

I am sorry everyone that I did a post and run! I had a very important dinner to attend with 12 other people, one of which may or may not have been a prostitute... Kidding! Did you see what I did there? Haha but seriously I had an important dinner with the girlfriends family lol

Anywhooo, I have read through everyone comments and I will try and answer everything in one post if I can, because it's a weekend, I'm at work and feeling particularly lazy.

The purpose of this thread was NOT to say Christians worship a sun-god or even believe Jesus is a Sun-god. Like I said in the OP, we are assuming Jesus was real and that he is the Son of God. My point, was that the story of Jesus had been re-portrayed to fit in with other peoples religions, this was to make Roman rule easier for people to accept. Constantine was one of the greatest Emperors of the Romans, he united everyone despite everyone having very varied religions, this was thanks to Christianity and his success in converting everyone to Christianity. I think we can thank Constantine for making Christianity such a world wide and mainstream religion. But my question is how? How did this one man do what no one else in history has done since? That is to make everyone either happy under his religion or just flat out convert without the use of too much force!

I would ask you to refer to the evidence I posted in the OP, I want to ask anyone who has said that my theory is a ridiculous notion, why does Jesus have such a strikingly similar story to Sun-Gods before him? Like Mithras of the Sol Invictus and Horus of the Egyptian Gods. They're so similar that if you just take the story without names you would easily mistake the story for that of Jesus's.

Like I said, I'm not here to debunk Christianity, I am actually very happy to believe that Christ existed. What I'm trying to prove is that Christianity has been twisted and tweaked in certain areas so rulers like Constantine, could easily keep an iron hold over his people and his land.

If anyone wants to dispute my theory, I would first ask you to explain to me why Jesus has the same story as the Sun Gods of conquered Roman lands.

Also, if anyone had any direct questions about my theory they wanted answering, could you please re-post or link me?

I don't want to answer the wave of questions I got if the person asking will not even come back to check.

Like I said, feeling lazy

Gryphon66: I don't think anyone would argue with the idea that the various Sun Gods are often depicted at the center of the celestial zodiac:

Chiram: I disputed your statement.

Gryphon66: Helios, and Apollo, and Sol, and any other number of sungods are shown hundreds of times with common elements of the crown, the chariot, and usually four white horses. Archeologists, historians, and traditions beyond number agree upon this point.

Chiram: Name a few Archeologists, Historians who agree with your point, and Im not interested in pictures of your interpretations. So are we expected to ignore the writings of Plato, Aristotle and the Vedas on the Parable/Allegory of the “Charioteer’ and the sometimes two or four white horses, sometimes black and white horses?

chiram

Gryphon66: I don't think anyone would argue with the idea that the various Sun Gods are often depicted at the center of the celestial zodiac:

Chiram: I disputed your statement.

I would be inclined to agree with Gryphon on this one, the Zodiac was used to track the sun in the sky. It was common to have the sun in the centre of the Zodiac, so if you are a Sun-God worshipper, it would make sense that you would put your Sun-God in the centre of the Zodiac.

ETA:
With I might also add, the sun-god's twelve "disciples" surrounding him

benrl
reply to post by Specimen

 

Which is why many feel the Roman Catholic church is the "whore" of Babylon in revelations, drunk on the blood of the saints, who made fornication with the worlds leaders, etc.

With things like the Crusades, inquisition, its a church responsible for killing its own.

Also has a seat on the UN, theres more that tie the RCC with the description given.

Thought to be types and shadow, if you go back to the old Sumerian/Babylonian seals they actually depict a woman with a cup ridding some sort of beast. All of the subsequent kingdoms that sprouted up around the world, to numerous to name, their esoteric nature, sunworship, pantheon of gods, ect are known as "the daughters of Babylon" the "corruption of the whole earth".

Also, so I don't have to make another post, Constantine probably had as much to do with anything as King James did when he commissioned an official English version.

iRoyalty


The purpose of this thread was NOT to say Christians worship a sun-god or even believe Jesus is a Sun-god. Like I said in the OP, we are assuming Jesus was real and that he is the Son of God. My point, was that the story of Jesus had been re-portrayed to fit in with other peoples religions, this was to make Roman rule easier for people to accept. Constantine was one of the greatest Emperors of the Romans, he united everyone despite everyone having very varied religions, this was thanks to Christianity and his success in converting everyone to Christianity. I think we can thank Constantine for making Christianity such a world wide and mainstream religion. But my question is how? How did this one man do what no one else in history has done since? That is to make everyone either happy under his religion or just flat out convert without the use of too much force!

I would ask you to refer to the evidence I posted in the OP, I want to ask anyone who has said that my theory is a ridiculous notion, why does Jesus have such a strikingly similar story to Sun-Gods before him? Like Mithras of the Sol Invictus and Horus of the Egyptian Gods. They're so similar that if you just take the story without names you would easily mistake the story for that of Jesus's.

Now this may be hard to understand and perhaps not believable to many, but it looks like the corrupting influence of Babylon/Sumerian actually took ancient and known teachings about the one to come and turned them into something they could use for themselves. The "royal" lines that established themselves in the Sumerian Valley did so in rebellion against the Shem line of Kings, the line with real authority. They made up a virgin birth story for example, impregnation by a sun beam ect to numerous to name all that they corrupted. They had hoped to completely overshadow the real story and did a good job. The day came when, as before, they were forced to incorporate something they had so desperately tired to destroy, that being the emergence in force of the real story. This happened strangely at the height, to that point, of the greatest world pagan empire that part of the world had ever seen.

Constantine didn't get everybody to just get along. The pagan ways of thousands of years which had now culminated into this panicle of power that was Rome was desperate to survive so they superimposed onto christianity to save themselves. The Pagan ways as sole proprietor over the minds of men now found itself after 1000's of years being forced to adopt a new face. So much of the mysteries were force to morph or now find themselves hidden from view.

reply to post by iRoyalty

Nice post.
Especially this part


Give yourself to God, do good, pray and worship God. However, I urge my Christian brothers and sisters to do so in their own way. Worship God in a way that you have discovered through your own experiences with the Divine and not through a book that we all know is likely not the word of Jesus or God.