Is it time for the Democrats to secede from the Union!!???

Looking at the voting map and its geographical makeup, I have determined that the North East and perhaps the west coast should secede. Hear me out....

Being that the majority of the country does not represent the values, morals and opinions of the democrats, liberals, leftists, artists, intellectuals and socialists anymore, the time appears to have come to break away to form a more perfect union.
Those areas look to be the NorthEast, parts of the midwest and west coast. I will give you some quotes to help jar your mind into a different place:

"The real object of those who resorted to Secession, as well as those who sustained it, was not to overthrow the Government of the United States; but to perpetuate the principles upon which it was founded. The object in quitting the Union was not to destroy, but to save the principles of the Constitution."
-- Alexander Hamilton Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederacy

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it. " - Abraham Lincoln

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right - a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit. " - Abraham Lincoln (SAY IT, SON!)

"The principle, (states rights) for which we contended is bound to reassert itself, though it may be at another time and in another form." --Jefferson Davis

"Let�s begin the struggle for the well-being and independence of the Southern people by every honorable means." --Michael Hill, Chairman, League of the South

"Our enemies are pressing everywhere....I pray that the great God may aid us, and am endeavoring by every means in my power to bring out the troops and hasten them to their destination." --Robert E. Lee, 1862

"Towering genius...thirsts and burns for distinction; and, if possible,
it will have it, whether at the expense of emancipating slaves or enslaving freeman." (or at the hands of right-wing morality - added by VOD)
--Abraham Lincoln, 1838

"A legitimate union of states "depends for its continuance on the free consent and will of the Sovereign people of each state," and " when that consent and will is withdrawn on either part, their union is gone." Any state forced to remain in a union by military force" can never be a co-equal member of the American Union " and can be viewed only as a "subject province." --Daily Union Newspaper, Bangor, Maine Nov. 13, 1860

"We protest solemnly in the face of mankind, that we desire peace at any sacrifice, save that of honor. In independence we seek no conquest, no aggrandizement, no concession of any kind from the states with which we have lately been confederated. All we ask is to be let alone - that those who never held power over us shall not now attempt our subjugation by arms. This we will, we must resist to the direst extremity. The moment that this pretension is abandoned, the sword will drop from our grasp, and we shall be ready to enter into treaties of amnesty and commerce that cannot but be mutually beneficial. So long as this pretension is maintained, with a firm reliance on that Divine Power which covers with its protection the just cause, we must continue to struggle for our inherent right to freedom, independence, and self government. " !!!!!!!!!!!!!
--President Jefferson Davis� first address to the Confederate Congress

That one was fantastic...what do you think liberalas????


"In our government-controlled schools we are taught that Lincoln was our greatest president because his war ended slavery and saved the Union. As usual, the other side of the story -- the side that reflects poorly on the government--somehow gets lost. (Think about it democrats!!)
--Richard J. Maybury,

"Though many refuse to admit it, the United States has become a vast centralized power, overwhelmingly dominated and controlled by a [right-wing-extremist] intelligentsia who continually pull this country to the [right], against the wishes of the [nothern] people. --William L Cawthon, Jr., The South As An Independent Nation -1860

"Though many refuse to admit it, the United States has become a vast centralized power, overwhelmingly dominated and controlled by a liberal-leftist intelligentsia who continually pull this country to the left, against the wishes of the Southern people." --William L Cawthon, Jr., The South As An Independent Nation

"...That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed." - Thomas Jefferson, Declaration of Independence, 1776

"...the contest is not over, the strife is not ended. It has only entered upon a new and enlarged arena." --Jefferson Davis, address to the Mississippi legislature 16 years after the war ended. (Boy was he right!)

"Federalism is not when the central government graciously allows the states to do this or that. That is just another form of administration. True federalism is when the people of the states set limits to the central government. Fundamentally, federalism means states rights. The cause of states rights is the cause of liberty. They rise or fall together." -- Clyde C. Wilson

"The Government of the absolute majority instead of the Government of the people is but the Government of the strongest interests; and when not efficiently checked, it is the most tyrannical and oppressive that can be devised." - John C. Calhoun

"For 134 years the American people have been led to believe that the right of secession had been overturned by a �verdict of arms,� but that isn�t true�.It is true the shot fired at Fort Sumter was a mistake since it provided the pretext for the Southland to be invaded by foreign troop, but the right of secession realized through the ballot box remains an essential part of our constitutional order."
--George Kalas, , Chairman Emeritus, The Southern Party

"Contrary to popular belief, the War Between the States did not prove that the Southern States had no legal right to secede. In fact, many incidents both preceding and following the War support the proposition that the Southern States did have the right to secede from the Union. Instances of nullification prior to the War Between the States, contingencies under which certain states acceded to the Union, and the fact that the Southern States were made to surrender the right to secession all affirm the existence of a right to secede.

In addition, the national Constitution�s failure to forbid secession and the various amendments concerning secession that were proposed while the Southern States were seceding each strengthen the proposition: that the Southern States had an absolute right to secede from the Union prior to the War Between the States. --H. Newcomb Morse, "The Foundations and Meaning of Secession," Stetson Law Review 15 (1986) p. 420.


and let us end with the great Paine, "These are the times that try men's souls: The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of his country; but he that stands it Now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict the more glorious the triumph."

- Thomas Paine, The Crisis - December, 1776


There you have it liberals. Stop fretting over the election of the baboon in the cowboy hat. Stop feeling sorry that you choose to look at more than one side of an issue. Stop feeling like your not a man if you dont "shoot first and think later". Stop feeling that you have to take this hogwash of cardboard patriotism mixed with puritanical christianity any longer. Stop feeling like your opinions and values are wrong because the majority of people in this country need fear and tyranny in their lives.
It's OK to be smart. Its OK to be educated. Its OK to reason things out first. Its OK to look at all the sides of an issue. Its OK to want to help the less fortunate. Its OK not to believe the television. Its OK to stand up to bully's by having more knowledge. Its OK to be sensitive, relfect on your feelings and be moved my them.
GODDAMN IT! Its time for you to get the representation you deserve. Stop being saddled by the tyranny of the mindless-robotcross-wearing-majority. Break away! Form a government where your values are reflected. Where your policies can be implemented.
Its happened before...you just have to stop taking it!
you just have to stop taking it!
you just have to stop taking it!
you just have to stop taking it!




Everything is permissable - Hassan I Sabbath






[edit on 4-11-2004 by Voice_of Doom]

They where discusing this on BBC News 24 today, saying how the country had become polarised, and that the two (main) candidates where urging the people to come together. Had some talking heads from the States (some thinktank types) also discussing the split in the people.

I'm sorry but the majority has spoken.

More crazy junk.... I swear they must be putting shroom juice in the water supplies around this country.

Originally posted by pfcret
I'm sorry but the majority has spoken.

Yep, the majority was by 1%. What a landslide of a victory.

Originally posted by pfcret
I'm sorry but the majority has spoken.

Ummm NO, the Majority of People who voted have spoken, but the entire country did not Vote, nor were all Votes counted.

Originally posted by Voice_of Doom
Looking at the voting map and its geographical makeup, I have determined that the North East and perhaps the west coast should secede. Hear me out....



[edit on 4-11-2004 by Voice_of Doom]

I am a liberal and I dont believe that. Your right on one thing oh America has become divided. However, we wont disband because we dont have a reason to. I know what your going to say, Bush led us into a false war, and I could list more reasons that you could come up with, but lets face it we are part of the social contract. Let me quote Hobbs we will lay down some of rights and form a social contract to prevent chaos, the only right we will never lay down is the right to perserve our life by all means, which is the natural law. Has the current administration really endanger our lives? I dont think they have endanger our lives enough to really consider it a threat. Now if the day comes when the government starts disregarding our rights, such as freedom of speech, marital law declared, and so on and so on then you might see a civil war, but I doubt you'll see any civil war soon.

Half of the country gave a sleepy nod by not voting, half of those who voted chose Bush; therefore, only 1/4 wanted Kerry as President.

Majority: See largest percentage.

Originally posted by stumason
They where discusing this on BBC News 24 today, saying how the country had become polarised, and that the two (main) candidates where urging the people to come together. Had some talking heads from the States (some thinktank types) also discussing the split in the people.

Indeed. It is also misleading to assume, as in the first post in this thread, that Democratic states should secede, because the assumption falsely considers the states that Bush won to be completely supportive of Bush policies. In reality, in most of the states that Bush won, Kerry followed very closely, and vice versa. Only a handful of states showed a landslide in either direction, indicating that polarization exists within the individual states themselves, not only between the states.

The situation is an interesting one. George W. Bush had moved further to the right than his father's administration, which led the Democrats to move further to the left in order to effectively counter. This strategy proved to highlight the real differences between the two camps, but also forced moderates into a tricky situation. Ultimately, the Republicans seemed to have prevailed because their propaganda was more effective. They were able to sidestep issues like health care and the deficit by focusing on their questionable foreign policies, given with a slant, and by effectively mobilizing their conservative Christian base.

It's very interesting that 24% of voters listed "moral values" as their top concern in this regard. For example, many say they voted for Bush because he opposes gay marriage, ignoring the fact that Kerry does also; or that Bush is pro-life, ignoring the fact that Bush has been in office 4 years with a Republican Congress for two years, as well as a conservative Supreme Court, and the only abortion legislation passed was the ban on late-term abortions; this ban is also favored by the majority of Democrats excepting only when the mother's life is at risk. Since their are very few, if any, differences between Bush and Kerry on these "moral issues", we may safely say that the Bush camp won the propaganda war, in large part over practical non-issues, but which nevertheless inspire great emotions in potential voters who do not always follow the issues closely, and are often confused on what the candidates stand for because of the distortion of opponents' records on both sides.

Whether we like it or not, Bush has been elected President, and will remain so for 4 years; he has also retained his Republican Congress, and continues to be backed by a Republican-controlled Supreme Court. For the next 4 years, the ruling Party will remain under a microscope as it has one of the most tremendous opportunities and challenges in the history of our nation: it has the opportunity to prove to America and to the world that its ideologies and policies are correct as they claim; or, that they are sublime fantasies that will utterly destroy our nation's fabric, wreak our economy, land us in a long, bloody, and costly war with no end, and destroy all respect for us in the world, as is claimed by the opposition.

I voted for Sen. Kerry, and am extremely proud of his campaign and his vision to renew America. However, now we must continue on under the current leadership and hope for the best.

Fiat Lvx.

But this is important.

We aren't that geographically split.

We're purple.


The "minority" is everywhere. Just oppressed.

No safe haven.

Perhaps when the French come liberate us they'll find mass graves of Democrats under the floorboards of the Baptist Party, but it aint that bad yet. Women can still show their faces. For now.

Originally posted by TrickmastertricK

Originally posted by pfcret
I'm sorry but the majority has spoken.

Ummm NO, the Majority of People who voted have spoken, but the entire country did not Vote, nor were all Votes counted.

Nevertheless, had everyone in America voted, Bush would have won by and even wider margin. The majority of the people in the US don't live in the northeast or the left coast.



As far as seceding....
What a load.
The US has had many Republian presidents before. It has had many Democratic presidents before. The US is still here. Name one country where the people has such differing views and is as polarized as the US yet still lives together peacefully. Still able to remain a superpower.

That's what makes this country so great. We have such stark differences, that's never going to change, but we still function.
It'd be a sad and boring society if everyone thought like you, shared your views, etc. Sounds kind of hitleresque to me....

Do you really think that whoever is in office will just allow that loss of land and tax revienue?

After looking at the election map of the United States it be came evident that over 2/3 of the States that voted for Kerry were composed of voters who are tied to entitlement programs. There interests did not relate to the best interests of all US citizens, but for themselves.
I reside in California, home of the illegals and one big welfare state. This is the only reason Bush lost in our state. Even the news media agrees that those states with large numbers of minorities never vote Republican.

RED, BLUE are stupid labels and misconceptions


You are mixing apples with oranges.
You are comparing an ELECTORAL system with political preferences
A state's color is determined by the mayority of VOTERS who decided to support
an certain idea, but a state's population is the sum voters and non voters, so while 50 to 55% of the people do vote is leaves a huge part of the population who actually DON'T CARE about politics out of the picture.

I'd say you are blissfully embracing ignorance!

Who cares about Derek Zoolander anyway? The man has only one look for Christ's sake! Blue Steel? Ferrari? Le Tigra? They're the same face! Doesn't anybody notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

I am pretty sure those who are elected try to do their best. With Bush winning the majority vote no one can deny him as a great politician.

[edit on 4-11-2004 by jrod]

First of all I dont think that a difference in opinion is the justification for seceding which would most likely break out into war. Even though the Republicans have won control again we still have the rights given to us in the constitution and no man has the right to take that away. The only way I would consider violence or secession is if there was a blatent attempt by the government to overthrow the rights of citizens and destroy the constitution, otherwise I really don't see any justification.

As the saying goes,
" I may not like what you say, but Ill defend to the death your right to say it."

I hear what you're saying. My point is that the "left" doesn't have to "take it"! The south seceded over several reasons. One of the most important being that they were becomnig the minority block in the house and senate. They knew that with that came the imposistion of "Northern" values" which they felt were not part of their history and did not represent them.
Legally they felt that there was no reason they couldn't disband from the union. This is one of the reasons why Jefferson DAvis (president of the confederacy) was not allowed a legal hearing. They did not want to allow them to present legal arguments for secession.

The current values from the south/midwest DO NOT represent those living in the North East and West coast. Why should they be subject to them? The Union is "legally" non-binding. Now, Im not naive. The Union was maintained by invasion and force 140 years ago...and I see no reason why that wouldn't happen again...but...thats not democracy. Thats force...pure and simple.
What does civil war mean, kiddies? Think about it. Think about how divided the coutry was in 1859...how divided are we now.

I just want the left to feel like that they have options...that they shouldn't be forced to accept morality that they find reprehensible.
If they want a culture of internationalism, pro-choice, equal rights for gays, progressive tax brackets, public health care and enviromental laws...they should have it!
If the 'right' wants to drive their "bible-thumping-bigoted familes into an oil-well pit of de-evolution" in their 40 foot long SUV...thats their right. But they shouldn't be able to impose it on the rest of the country.


Nothing is true - Hassan I Sabbath

Originally posted by Voice_of Doom
"In our government-controlled schools we are taught that Lincoln was our greatest president because his war ended slavery and saved the Union. As usual, the other side of the story -- the side that reflects poorly on the government--somehow gets lost. (Think about it democrats!!)
--Richard J. Maybury,

AND

If the 'right' wants to drive their "bible-thumping-bigoted familes into an oil-well pit of de-evolution" in their 40 foot long SUV...thats their right. But they shouldn't be able to impose it on the rest of the country.


Nothing is true - Hassan I Sabbath

The first part, YES!!
Second part, MAYBE!!

We need to be ever vigilant; we will have the crimes of this mis-administration's first term buried deep in a partisan majorities vault, finished up with even more presidential pardons than his father issued. The Bush's can bury criminal history better than a Rottweiler on a hambone.

Second Part: Evangelical Fundies are pervasive, but folks that believe the bible is not the collection of didactic morality plays that it really is, voted along with them.
Look at the last year of debating with the Bush supporters; cognitive dissonace that I've never encountered before on such a widespread level....was common place. Why?

- Fear is a powerful tool to a malleable mind

- We all know a George W. Bush - he is them & they are he.

- We have a saying from back in my football days up in the North East: calling someone "Light in da azz" meant they did not have the critical mass to budge you, when the violent physics of the game happened. GW speaks to all the "light in da azz" who never could be BMOC - there is a vastly overlooked vicarious stake in it for them to see America as "not taking it anymore", and "bombing them all, let God sort'em out" and "They've awoken a Sleeping Giant".

I don't see a need to break away: the "Empire Strikes Back" is the present episode, but is it the last in the series?

Hey,
If all you DemonCracks want to leave, then let me say this....DON'T LET THE DOOR HIT YOU IN THE ASS!!!!!!!!

We are actually preety lucky i mean if we were in a third world country and the elections were this close dang i would bet one of the candidates would already be dead by now. too close to tell might as well kill one !