Should we ditch the Constitution?

On another thread this is what Nerdling has to say about our Constitution.....

"Oh yeah, i forgot they're all pawns of Satan himself and Badnarik is the knight in shining armour coming to protect your godlike constitution.

Of course they know its part of the constitution, they just choose to ignore it, if it became such an issue there would've been an amendment made. And it just happens to be 200 years old when the greatest threats were massive armies crossing into the US and not several dozen terrorists.

Move with the times."

My question is does anyone else think the Constitution is just an outdated piece of paper that our leaders can choose to ignore at will?

Or are there others out there that think it was a almost devinely crafted piece of paper that has withstood the test of time and should be followed by or leaders?

It is a great work, of that there is no doubt. The problem I see is that people choose to see the constitution the way they want to.

The best example is the 2nd amendment, and the part "a well regulated malitia." Liberals contest that it meant in the literal sense a militia, to defend this country. Now we have the most powerful army in the world so it is not needed. Conservatives will argue that it meant the people need weapons to defend themselves from powers both foriegn and demestic.

Another example is how people want the popular vote to decide the presidency. People fail to realize that states were supposed to control the federal government, not the other way around, because a centralized government with too much power is dangerous to it's citizens.

The constitution has evolved over the years to suit the times, however, there will come a point where it's perversion will take it to a point where it does not stand for what it used to.

And I for one fear that day.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
The constitution has evolved over the years to suit the times, however, there will come a point where it's perversion will take it to a point where it does not stand for what it used to.

And I for one fear that day.

That is why I support the Libertarians they are the ONLY PARTY to support the Constitution.

Oh get over it.

The Constitution was intended to be flexible or else changes would not have been permitted in the early years. The system of checks and balances ensures that nobody gets too amendment-happy.

You have to move with the times, we live in a modern society where the biggest threat is not King George and the redcoats landing on the Carolina shore's. It's terrorists, both domestic and foreign who seek to kill.

If you continue to tie this precious document around you its eventually going to choke you.

It's a document that provides an excellent basis for discussion and thought about rights of citizens of a country. It was written, however, with the perspective of a group of very well informed and aware men centuries ago, and it's become very easy to twist their meanings into something that suits us. It's a very different world today, and what they may have intended to be a protection in the 1700s is considered a threat to many today.

That being said, it lays a strong moral framework for the laws we have and create today, and I don't think we should be quick to disregard or throw away the laws set forward upon the founding of this country. Debating the issues, discussing them, truly understanding them, and embracing them isn't a bad thing. Amending them isn't a bad thing if its done out of education and the need for change and not out of fear and paranoia. Questions like the ones posed in the topic of this thread are necessary and I wish it could have attention beyond this board and be in every classroom in this country.

Nerdling has an excellent perspective about the potential for the Constitution to choke us, and I agree. I'm not ready to toss is aside, though. It needs to be discussed and it needs to be something we all understand. Its words, its history, and its sometimes antique take on the world. Ethics and what is right and wrong hasn't changed. The world has.

The constitution has stood the test of time... And it's worked... And it will continue to work if it isn't "#ed with"...

Liberals want to wipe their ass with so they can get on with their socialistic programs, red tape, and regulation after regulation... Choking your throat with this kind of horse# is "the only way to get ahead in America" right...


It's important the constitution remains intact, currently our republican partners are wiping their ass with it because they want to make a dangerous trade. We all know what the trade is.


And it is true, the only party that knows anything about the constitution and knows that it's the best experiment ever on earth because it has stood the test of time, our great grandparents and before that have lived their lives by the constitution happily.

Ask your grandparents what they think about this. I think a good lesson in history is important for some you people on here, you will see the differences in past and present, how these parties have changed and why, and you will see that you don't need to take part in partisan politics just because you want to be right... They want to get to you, and they have...

And these parties don't know any better I wouldn't trust them with my life, we're in a time when our decision making isn't really the best, isn't really based off of sound judgement, logic, or a big picture perspective...

Sure times have changed, but times have always changed, and the constitution has survived through all the changes, thats why it's such a great piece of work..

They knew, they foresaw future problems with government, and thats why you shouldn't trust government to # it, because it was meant to keep the government in line, it was meant for government to be less powerful then the state governments, it was put in place so that we would have our checks and balances....

Government has been slowly chipping away at this document and we've been letting them, so why should I continue to put my faith in their hands, when I look at the big picture and see their plan, I see their desire for more power, more regulation, and more control over my life...

And to allow yourself to be taken in by these bureaucrats is naive at the least, and dangerous for us all at the most.

I don't want to give up my freedoms for alittle bit of security, I don't want to give up my rights in exchange for big government to tell me what rights I can have...


History shows us what happens when government gets too big, and too out of control, too bloated...
Thats what these guys fought against, and they won, because it was an idea that was logical and based off of one of the most strongest human desires... To be free... And that spirit carries on in most of us, and we're not about to wipe our ass with this beautiful document the way both political parties are...



[edit on 6-9-2004 by TrueLies]

Ditch the constitution for what? it is nothing wrong with it and it ain't broken either

Like true lies said " it has stood the test of time"

Now the problem is the leadders of our country, they are the danger to our country behind the "I am the best for this country motto"

We the people are the wants electing them or at least we believe that we do, and it's our job to control what they do to our historical sets of rules and the patriot act is one of these patches to our constitution that we need to be careful with.

Originally posted by marg6043
...and the patriot act is one of these patches to our constitution that we need to be careful with.

Actually the Patriot Act is simply a law and does not affect the constitution at all. The constitution is, and remains, our best defense against its misuse. Congress can continue to pass laws that seek to take away our civil liberties - but the constitutional protections afforded to us in this "little piece of paper" will continue to ensure that they be shot down by the judicial branch.



edit: grmr








[edit on 9/6/04 by Bleys]

Sure it's meant to be interpreted, but not interpreted to suit your cause. That's what's happening today. Original intent is a very real thing, like it or not. People should go and read the writings of Jefferson, Jay, Hamilton, or the many others who provide a peek into their thinking.

I also suggest that it's critics actually read the Constitution, it's very easy to find online. The first 12 articles could have been written in 2004 just as easily as in 1787. The bill of rights, aside from possibly quatering of troops could have just as well been written today. Reading the document itself should answer someone's question as to whether it's archaic and outdated or not.

Changing our interventionist policies in the Middle East would protect us from terrorism a good bit more then mangling or scrapping the Constitution.

Originally posted by Nerdling
Oh get over it.
If you continue to tie this precious document around you its eventually going to choke you.

This is the biggest load of BS I have ever heard.

The Constitution was designed to PROTECT US FROM this way of thinking. Millions of Americans have fought and died to preserve this "scrap of paper" and the freedoms gauranted within. This is the ENTIRE basis of our way of life. It was writen by men who greatest desire was not to be a serf to a new king and as much as it might upset those who believe the Government should control EVERY aspect of our life it will remain the final line of deffense to a dictatorship

As Pistol Pete said READ IT.

It could have been writen today as easly as 200 years ago and I dont see any part of it that should be ignored at our leaders whim.

YOU get over it

I expected more responses than this

To me this is probibly the GREATEST single piece of writing in history

The US Constitution is still a document to be admired, and the Bill of Rights, specifically, has been the basis of human rights in most modern democracies since it was written. Concepts like Freedom of Speech and the Right to Assemble are expected to be part of governing documents whenever a country evolves to democracy - let's not forget where they orignated.

Long live the Bill of Rights!

Originally posted by Bleys
but the constitutional protections afforded to us in this "little piece of paper" will continue to be shot down by the judicial branch.

I only wish our highest court would apply the Constitution to strike down the campaign finance law. Freedom of speech - especially political speech - is essential to a vibrant democracy. I'm still scratching my head about that one, and starting to worry that totalitarianism might not be as far off as we might hope.

TrueLies
I'm sorry, but nerdling drank the kool aid, and it's sad, but i'm not
going to stand by and watch people like this destroy that document..

Oh so because I disagree that makes me a fool who "drank the kool aid"

So much for free speech guys, I'm entitled to my opinion and to express it. I think you're the ones who need the reality check.

Originally posted by Nerdling
So much for free speech guys, I'm entitled to my opinion and to express it. I think you're the ones who need the reality check.

Please...freedom of speech and opinion does not extend to freedom from criticism.

I thank the Constitution for protecting your right to express your opinion, as well as honoring it for protecting the right of others to criticize your opinion if they disagree with it.


"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

You know, the way some of you are talking about the Constitution reminds me of the fanatical view some have of the Bible. Strict adherence and forehead-to-the-ground worship. It's a document written by men, not God. It can be changed and has.

Just look at the history of this country. It obviously hasn't been adequate enough to protect EVERYONE's freedom. Just certain kinds of people...people like the forefathers themselves.

And Truelies, if liberals want to "wipe their ass with the Constitution" what do conservatives want to do with it eh?

Ahem, I'm perfectly sane and I know very well what is in the constitution, I'm not in favour of a full scrapping but it is an outdated document that in many places does not apply.

It needs an overhaul on certain area's done by a wide ranging tri-partisan commission to make it more modern.

Originally posted by Flinx
It's a document written by men, not God. It can be changed and has.

Agreed!!!

There is a process to change it that purposefully makes it difficult. Only necessary changes that are very widely supported should be made to it. Not 'flavor of the month' changes. This is good.

Originally posted by Nerdling
it is an outdated document that in many places does not apply.

Can you please elaborate on what exactly you feel should be changed? I don't think we can have a reasonable discussion without this point being better articulated. Who knows - you may find agreement!

Originally posted by Nerdling
[
So much for free speech guys, I'm entitled to my opinion and to express it. I think you're the ones who need the reality check.

According to that scrap of paper you think we need to trash yes you do have the right that right and I fully support it.

Just exactly do I need a reality check from?

What in this needs to be changed?

Let me guess

The right to bear arms?

The Constitution is our last stand against tyranny and for that reason, it must be vehemently defended. This document establishes and protects our basic freedoms from those who are in power. Our founding fathers had the foresight to realize that there will always be differences of opinions across our vast population and that the minority at the top could force the majority at the bottom to submit to their will, which is why they divided the power into three branches and established rules for governing, limiting and transfering power. They also had the foresight to understand that this document would stand for a very long time, so they created rules for creating amendments and challenging the document itself.

The interpretation of the Constitution depends on the prevailing wind of the government, but the checks and balances are still in place. I think that the only time that there is a greater risk of civil liberties being taken away is when all three branches of government are controlled by the same faction, and even then, election terms limit power for two of the three branches. There is no question that the Constitution is still doing it's job, however the country is very polarized right now--one side is always going to feel victimized.

However, I think that there is one issue that our founding fathers did not anticipate and that is the overwhelming apathy of the American people. For the system to truly work, people have to participate--understand the issues, challenge their leaders, and most importantly, vote. Our leaders are able to get away with a lot of the crap that they pull because we let them. They lie, break the law, misappropriate our tax money, make huge tactical mistakes, and somehow they are still reelected--which in essence, negates a lot of the built-in checks and balances. Of course, for the average person, participating is no easy task. Wading through the disinformation spewed by the media and the voting process itself are pretty big turn-offs, but perhaps this is by design. If the entire population did actively participate in the process, I'm sure that the landscape of our government would look very different. We have to remember that there are more of us then there are of them--the Constitution exists to protect US (y'know--"We the people"), which is precisely why it must be protected at all costs.

Someone mentioned earlier that everyone should read the Constitution & I wholeheartedly agree. You can find it online with the Bill of Rights & Amendments (as well as some background documents) at:

www.house.gov...

Originally posted by Flinx
And Truelies, if liberals want to "wipe their ass with the Constitution" what do conservatives want to do with it eh?

The exact same thing which is why we need to stop paying attention to those who discrace it, a discrace of the constitution, is a discrace of the people.

If these people want to do away with it like a #ty piece of toilet paper, I am not going to vote for these people, they don't have my best interests at heart, they don't care about anything or about protecting anything and anyone, except for themselves, the more power they take away from us, the more they give to themselves...

And Flinx,

That constitution is a very brilliant piece written by genius' it's solid in what it says and it protects your rights indoubtably.. However, the more votes we give to those who chip away at our rights, the more our rights are going to disappear and one day soon, you just might not be allowed to say what you just did or I because it's contradictory to what those in power which for us to believe or say. Sadam Hussein is a perfect example. Another perfect example is China...

I believe so firmly in that document and there is nothing wrong with it, because it benefits me, it's help protect me, it helps keep government away from our "god given rights" as human beings to live how we want to say what we want to bear our arms against government and theives.. One the same if you ask me, I don't have to worry..

But I do have to worry once the left and right totally wipe their ass with it...
And that is something to worry about indefinitely. So to treat it like the bible, your right I guess we do, and for good reason... Whats yours?





[edit on 6-9-2004 by TrueLies]