Foreign influences on the American election...onATS

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posted on Aug, 30 2004 @ 03:16 AM
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This may come across as nationalistic and ignorant... but I hope that people will listen to what i have to say...

For ATS Americans... How would you feel if some foreign group began to run TV ads supporting a certain presidential candidate? How would you feel if foreign factions/writers began to publish newspapers in the US WITHOUT identifying themselves as non-americans? How would you feel if foreign factions began to support one political candidate through financial means?

You'd feel that you were being cheated, subverted, lied to... wouldn't you? You'd feel that your nation... your democracy... was being influenced by outside forces that may NOT have your best interests in mind, wouldn't you?

So why do you sit back and watch non-americans interefere with US politics online?

Yes... everyone has the right to their opinion. However.... the time has come for non-american ATSers to STOP passing themselves off as americans. America is a free, independent country... and, so, when a non-american poses as a member of American society, and tries to influence our vote through trickery... a major act of national subversion has occured. They have every right to express their opinions.... but, to maintain a semblance of honesty, they MUST state that they are not Americans.

Why am I writing this? Because I am sick and tired of seeing posters that I know are European (based on their past posts) shooting their mouths off on the state of America on ATS. These people come on ATS and write long posts about what's wrong with America... but have probably never even visited America. Sure... they have the right to express their opinions... but they should not be given an easy pass to say whatever they want without challenge, here. They should -- for the sake of honesty -- confess when they are merely repeating what they have heard or what they want to believe in.

Yes, this sounds McCarthyesque.. but the fact is that the American electorate is being tricked online by fake Americans. Such misrepresentation influences Americans who may vote this november. All I am asking is that the non-American ATSNN writers and non-American "Issues" forum writers identify themselves as non-americans. I am NOT saying that they should be censored... what I AM saying is that they should admit to their credentials.




posted on Aug, 30 2004 @ 03:27 AM
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From now on...

I think that people who start threads in the '2004 issues' forum or ATSNN should have to identify their nationality. Would anyone in the US tolerate a situation where a foreign group began to run TV attack ads? No... and, BTW, they're specifically outlawed by US election laws.

So... why should ATSNN 'writers' be allowed to post anonymous stories that attack candidates? Such activity is a far cry from journalism.



posted on Aug, 30 2004 @ 03:34 AM
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More interesting to me is the fact that people who do not understand our government and do not have our best interest in mind feel they should chime in on the election with the sound of full authority and righteousness. Anyone who is totally up on American history, government and politics and is not American should really concentrate on their own history, government and politics, otehrwise they are not serving their own country and countrymen well.



posted on Aug, 30 2004 @ 03:40 AM
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First of all, ATS isn't an american site to start with.
You talking about US Politics on ATS makes it you that is pritty much asking international people to talk about it too.

I do agree that people shouldn't act asif they are americans. But from what I've seen most people don't state they are, they just voice their opinion leavng origin unknown.

I for one do and have done in several occasions and well, my country is under my name at all times.

Having lived in Harlem for several years and having moved back and front from belgium to Boston for 2 years in a work situation entitles me to talk about this subject asif it concerns me imho.

Some of you may not know, since you don't know my past, but I actualy am entitled to vote in the US and this year, for the first time, I am voting.

EDIT: whow, gratz to myself for 10 typos in 1 post :@ better goto bed I guess :p

[edit on 30-8-2004 by thematrix]



posted on Aug, 30 2004 @ 03:44 AM
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Yes, that's right. Close your mind to the outside world. From people who see the situation from other perspectives. You complain about the influence of non-Americans here over Americans regarding the election? What about the influence your government has over other governments? Who cares about that right? You are America, you are free to force you opinion and actions on the rest of the world but the moment the situation is reversed it is not welcome?

This election affects not just America, but the whole world. Pull your head out, open your eyes, and see.



posted on Aug, 30 2004 @ 04:11 AM
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First off, Matrix, I applaud you for having your country under your name. I find that to be very commendable as compared to those who prefer to lip off and not even identify their origin.
So, are you Belgian or America? Why do you prefer to vote, and why do you think that living in the Bronx for a few years and Boston intermittently for a while makes you knowledgeable and one who can pick a good president for a country that you don't even have an interest in, if you are a Belgian? So, because I was in Germany for 5 solid years, that gives me the credentials to wisely help choose their leadership? I think not. Sounds to me like there might be a risk that you might have Belgium's interests at heart, wouldn't you agree? Regardless, if you are allowed to vote, then what can I say, other than pick well, as I and my fellow countrymen are the ones who will pay one way or another, but most certainly with our tax money. Come to think of it, vote twice, you might do better than many people who will decide who to vote for on the word of some spaced out, air-headed actresses' recomendation. Regardless, you couldn't do worse.

Cargo, that response is ludicrous. Would you like me involved in your politics? I assure you, you do not. I have as little understanding of your history, government and politics as you do mine. The fact that the "election effects the world" makes this no more your election than it would any other way. Free to force our opinions and influence on others? Ah, I think I see, you are one of the ones who are irked that for once, America is fighting for her own safety, rather than shedding her youth's blood for others' situations. I get it, now. Again, not your election. But still, pop off, I can ignore it or read it.



posted on Aug, 30 2004 @ 05:05 AM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
First off, Matrix, I applaud you for having your country under your name. I find that to be very commendable as compared to those who prefer to lip off and not even identify their origin.


Thanks, I'm proud of my heritage, not only that I'm a citizen to this lovely litle country, but also that I am part american and part Scottish. As I stated in other threads, I love the american people and I for one wouldn't hessitate to fight for them if they were in the need for it. Hating a governing body doesn't mean you hate the people, especialy since these days, most of the governing body's in all country's around the world, do litle to represent what the people exactly want.


So, are you Belgian or America?


Both


Why do you prefer to vote, and why do you think that living in the Bronx for a few years and Boston intermittently for a while makes you knowledgeable and one who can pick a good president for a country that you don't even have an interest in, if you are a Belgian?
So, because I was in Germany for 5 solid years, that gives me the credentials to wisely help choose their leadership?


We're not talking about "a few" years here, I was born in belgium, moved to the US at age of 6, lived there till I was 17(I spent july/august and december/januari in belgium during those years, usualy having to catch up with belgian school ... trust me, much harder then US school, but it made US school sooo much easyer for me) and then spent 1 more year in the US when I was 21.

The reason I'm not in the US is because here in belgium, without university degree education, I'm doing IT jobs at the highest level, because my knowledge and experience in the field is valued here. In the US the best I could get with the diploma I have is a helpdesk job or a techy.
If this wasn't so, I would have moved back to the US long ago, for several reasons, wich are mainly deeply personal.(yeah, its what you think, a girl)
I goto the US several times per year to meet family and friends and the girl that stole my heart.

EDIT: plus as I earlyer stated, 2 years of moving forth and back from belgium to Boston. 50/50 time distribution.
Seeing that I'm 26 now, you can say I spent good half of my life in the US.


I think not. Sounds to me like there might be a risk that you might have Belgium's interests at heart, wouldn't you agree? Regardless, if you are allowed to vote, then what can I say, other than pick well, as I and my fellow countrymen are the ones who will pay one way or another, but most certainly with our tax money. Come to think of it, vote twice, you might do better than many people who will decide who to vote for on the word of some spaced out, air-headed actresses' recomendation. Regardless, you couldn't do worse.


I vote with the interest of the world in mind. Having been online for over 10 years now and having traveled the worlds outer reaches, I've moved from being a person that sees things from the viewpoint of nations to a person that sees the world in its whole. But on actions made by a country, I have to talk about what that country did, with my view being that of what this 1 country's actions did to the common good of the world.

My vote goes for a man I admire, not only because hes intelligent and a clear craving for knowledge, a man who has the same roots as me(the IT industry) but also because he comes forward with an agenda that wants to restore the United States of America, to its original Constitutional way and purpouse.

My vote won't be a wasted vote and it definatly won't be an uninformed vote.

[edit on 30-8-2004 by thematrix]



posted on Aug, 30 2004 @ 05:10 AM
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OIMD,

You have hit on something very very important to me as well. It is one thing for people to make very opinionated statements on either side of the U.S. election process right now if the speaker is from the U.S., and it entirely different when it comes from some one sitting in another country who has nothing to go off but what they are fed by media outlets, and who may not have a single clue as to what the real intent of the American political system is aiming at. And for that matter, might not agree if they did know.

I realize full well your statements are made with all due respect for the intelligent posters we have around the world, and mine are too. But, with that caveat placed - your points are all well taken and as far as this member goes, agreed with.



posted on Aug, 30 2004 @ 05:47 AM
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I agree that if someone is from another country, at least he should emphasized that when making posts that may influence the voting.

Although I have commented many posts about things that occurred in the US, I never entered a discussion about the elections precisely because I do think that I have enough information about that, and after all, this is not a election where I can vote.

But I do think that comments about the elections are good, after all, the fact that someone is not a US citizen does not mean that he has not pertinent information about the candidates or other related matter.

Just one last thing, onlyinmydreams, you do not say what country you are from, but I believe you are from the USA.
If that is the case, remember what you said today if the future presents you a situation when you may make comments about elections in other countries, even if they are in South America.



posted on Aug, 30 2004 @ 05:47 AM
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Matrix, you sound like quite an interesting person, and no doubt, you are a travelled and experienced fellow to be so young. That is an awesome thing, and that will be a benefit to you, as much as your IT knowledge.

I appreciate your willingness to fight along side me, but when I hear people say such a thing I have to wonder what conditions would allow this to occur. Hopefully, this will never be more than an intellectual excercise as fighting is costly, as we are finding out - again. It may be necessary for survival, but still, costly.

The election in my nation is not one that should be considered on a glaobal level. One cannot try and be concerned about the global scene with the fate of my countrymen in the balance. There is no other nation that will place my son's well-being first, and it is unethical, in my opinion, that while you claim to love the American people, you live elsewhere and yet will cast a ballot in my country's election while thinking "globally". AS I've stated before, I should not be allowed to vote in anothers' elections as it is none of my business, and the same goes for this nation. From the way you have worded your comments (quite carefully and guarded) I still get the feeling that your vote will be one that is against the current president. Is this true, and if so, why are you opposed to him? Since you are no longer here and are uneffected by domestic issues, I'd guess it must be his foreign policies. Why is it that an American president that puts America first is a threat to the rest of the world? Why is it expected that the U.S. president place the rest of the world's will, which is oftentimes anti-American and self-centered, before his own nation? Is it because after eight years of Clinton this has come to be expected, and the only way to get it bcak is to elect Kerry, who is obviously infatuated with the U.N.? I fail to understand, really.



posted on Aug, 30 2004 @ 06:46 AM
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I think that if the policies and actions of US affects the entire world people from other countries that are affected as well and they should have and opinion on how US affect their nations, and for ATS, well I thought it was an international site, for everybody to become members regardless of sex, religious affiliations and political preferences also regardless of nationality.

And if people decides to post their nationality that is ok, but if some does not that is their personal choices and they should not be persecuted for that choice and ask for their citizen ID.



posted on Aug, 30 2004 @ 06:50 AM
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marg...

The comments OIMD made - and to which I spoke - was concerning Campaign 2004 Issues forum.

That's a bit different. Also, please note he is talking about posters who pretend to be American, when, in fact, they are not.

He has specific points, he is not making blanket statements.



posted on Aug, 30 2004 @ 06:59 AM
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TextThe comments OIMD made - and to which I spoke - was concerning Campaign 2004 Issues forum.


Then excuse my post, I think is nice to see people's opinions on US policies through the eyes of foreigners, I think they are refreshing and most of the time bias.

And looking at it, yes you and onlyinmydreams have a point, in ocassions like the Campaign 2004 issues. May be it should be thread about how US policies afects the citizens of other countries, that will be a good issue.



posted on Aug, 30 2004 @ 07:23 AM
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What if there is someone who has the good of the US people in mind, in a scenario that will be better for the entire world, where the peoples interests are served instead of the interests of the few that hold all the money?

The US in its intended and Constitutional form is the best thing for both the US and the world.

There is one candidate that has that as his main point.
This same candidate does not wish to reduce the US military and does not wish to make the US unsafe, but what he does intend to do is to make the US the land of the free again, where families make thier own choices and where the US will use its military to defend the people of the US, instead of to police the world and to use its power to serve the rich and wealthy.

You should really read up on Badnarik, he's much more then an alternative imho, he should be listed as one of the 3 main choices.

Bush had no right to enter the white house to start with, alot of his actions during the last 4 years have been to serve the rich and to protect the interests of those people.

Kerry is equaly worse as Bush, imho the difference between Democrats and Republicans is so small, they should rejoin into the one party they originaly sprung of from.



posted on Aug, 30 2004 @ 07:28 AM
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thematrix,

You are right we don't have candidates that care for the citizens of this nation anymore, they serve a higher god, and that is the God of money and power.

I wonder sometimes when and in what time our political system started to get corrupted and worthless.



posted on Aug, 30 2004 @ 08:36 AM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Cargo, that response is ludicrous. Would you like me involved in your politics? I assure you, you do not. I have as little understanding of your history, government and politics as you do mine.


You would have no interest in my countries politics or elections. We are insignificant. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that there are more non-Americans with knowledge about the US than there are American's who have knowledge about the rest of the world.

As for being involved in my country's politics, a few links:

With friends like these

Butt out of Australian politics, Crean tells US ambassador

US 'meddling in Australian vote'

Australian opposition chief accuses US of election meddling over Iraq pledge

The irony of it is that just 15 minutes ago I saw a US advisor on counter-terrorism being interviewed on Lateline state that the withdrawal of our troops from Iraq would "not be noticed" and that the 800 troops there are just a symbolic contribution, and a fairly insignificant symbolic contribution at that. I tend to agree with him 100%. But why did Bush openly state that the withdrawal of Australian troops from Iraq would be "disasterous"?



The fact that the "election effects the world" makes this no more your election than it would any other way. Free to force our opinions and influence on others?


Who's forcing their opinion and influence on who? Hint: read over those above links again.



Ah, I think I see, you are one of the ones who are irked that for once, America is fighting for her own safety, rather than shedding her youth's blood for others' situations. I get it, now. Again, not your election. But still, pop off, I can ignore it or read it.


Now we are getting to the ludicrous. You assume a lot. But remember this, your country has never shed her youth's blood for my country. But there have been times where Australia has shed the blood of her youth for yours.



posted on Aug, 30 2004 @ 08:52 AM
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Originally posted by thematrix
I vote with the interest of the world in mind. Having been online for over 10 years now and having traveled the worlds outer reaches, I've moved from being a person that sees things from the viewpoint of nations to a person that sees the world in its whole. But on actions made by a country, I have to talk about what that country did, with my view being that of what this 1 country's actions did to the common good of the world.


thematrix stands as an example that there are those in the world, watching, with the world in mind. That should make you feel good about your international friends



posted on Aug, 30 2004 @ 09:09 AM
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Originally posted by cargo
]

Now we are getting to the ludicrous. You assume a lot. But remember this, your country has never shed her youth's blood for my country. But there have been times where Australia has shed the blood of her youth for yours.

Quick question concerning that -
Was Australia at all threatened by Japanese imperialism in the pacific?



posted on Aug, 30 2004 @ 09:14 AM
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Just 2 quick notes:

1) I don't think it's fair for someone to consider themselves an expert on American policy if that person has never lived under that policy simply because firsthand knowledge is very different from knowledge acquired by reading and watching TV. That's not to say that I don't believe everyone should be able to offer their opinions, I just think it's a very different situation entirely.

2) I don't think any foreign entity has a right to take out ads in a US campaign. The US government has been accused by the entire world of meddling in others' elections and supporting one side or another. I'd just say to them what's good for the goose...



posted on Aug, 30 2004 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by onlyinmydreams

...

For ATS Americans... How would you feel if some foreign group began to run TV ads supporting a certain presidential candidate? How would you feel if foreign factions/writers began to publish newspapers in the US WITHOUT identifying themselves as non-americans? How would you feel if foreign factions began to support one political candidate through financial means?...You'd feel that you were being cheated, subverted, lied to... wouldn't you? You'd feel that your nation... your democracy... was being influenced by outside forces that may NOT have your best interests in mind, wouldn't you?


I agree with the above in principle, however, it should not be a one-sided argument since the U.S government and some Americans engage in the very same tactics when it comes to other countries. Creating a satellite news feed directed to the people of Iran for example, in order to influence the masses to rise up against their government is a worse interference. Rupert Murdoch via his British holdings has no compunction when it comes to trying to influence the U.K to back American republicans, or Britain's labour party.



... the time has come for non-american ATSers to STOP passing themselves off as americans. America is a free, independent country... and, so, when a non-american poses as a member of American society, and tries to influence our vote through trickery... a major act of national subversion has occured. They have every right to express their opinions.... but, to maintain a semblance of honesty, they MUST state that they are not Americans.


No argument there.


... These people come on ATS and write long posts about what's wrong with America... but have probably never even visited America. Sure... they have the right to express their opinions... but they should not be given an easy pass to say whatever they want without challenge, here. They should -- for the sake of honesty -- confess when they are merely repeating what they have heard or what they want to believe in.


The above is just a mass of assumptions with a call to silence non-Americans, and that is wrong. It assumes that non-Americans are ill-equipped to understand the politics or economy or history of the U.S. It assumes that American history is only taught in America or only accurate in American books, that only American based news reflects truth while all others are tainted and lacking in facts.


Yes, this sounds McCarthyesque... but the fact is that the American electorate is being tricked online by fake Americans. Such misrepresentation influences Americans who may vote this november. All I am asking is that the non-American ATSNN writers and non-American "Issues" forum writers identify themselves as non-americans. I am NOT saying that they should be censored... what I AM saying is that they should admit to their credentials.


No person able to think for themselves can be tricked into anything.

In line with what another poster has already stated, the U.S.A is not an entity locked solely between its borders. The U.S government for decades has either by force, corruption or manipulation tried to influence the political outcome of other nations, Haiti being the latest, Iraq before that. When your government tries to bully nations such as mine, Canada into fighting an elective war, or backing your space shield, or moves toward requiring the personal and very private information of Canadian citizens who cross over the border, I, as a Canadian, have a very definite interest in your election since it is you, the citizenry who elects same. In that process we Canadians send very definite signals to our own government officials as to where we stand with their foreign policy attitudes, and it behoves us to do our homework, and speak knowledgeably on the subject. It is up to the listener or reader to counter our arguments with knowledge of their own.





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