Pastor Shot During Service

reply to post by Raist

Thanks for your post! It is reaffirming to me!
Star also for your signatures!

reply to post by TheRedneck

WOW, ya there is always that other element!
Things are never as cut and dried as it seems.
Execllent point and is well taken on this site.
We have seen homosexuality infiltrate the churches lately.
While not ours to judge, it doesn't look too good either.
We all know of the things done in the name of God.
People mix up spirituality and religion.
Religion is of man, spirituality is FROM God. Peace be with U

First of all, I hope that the shooter rots in hell.
Secondly,


Edit - Nevermind. I made a comment in bad taste.
Best kept to myself.

[edit on 8-3-2009 by Jay-in-AR]

Reading this thread is very disturbing. I myself I'm not a christian nor do I follow any other religion, nor would I classify myself as an athiest fact is I just don't know what the heck happens when you die but hey I'll find out sooner or later. What is disturbing is the lack of respect for a human life. I've never used the world I really don't like it and feel it is over used on this site but those so willing to hate an entire group of people that are differant truly are "sheeple" can you say Nazis, Racists, ect. Some here streotype so quickley. First thing that came to my mind was what a nut job how sad. I have met thugged out black people dirty mexicans greedy jews ect.ect.ect. but I have also met great people from all of the above. I never have met a pedophile preacher if I do I will be sure to judge everyone I see there after as such. Maybe everyone is not as open minded as they think? Just my two cents. Don't tear in to me too bad I'm new

reply to post by frankdatank


If I may, you have hit upon the very problem I feel and welcome!
You will find the people here have very strong opinions and are not
afraid to call you out so be ready!
They are some of the most highly intelligent people from all over
and all walks of life I've met!
I have grown deep respect and compassion for all the people
here and especially the ones willing to sacrifice for others.

Back to my thought, the whole idea that some know exactly what
happens after death and they are not afraid to take you down with them!
It just seems to me to be behind most of the latest fanaticism in the
entire world as well as possibly in Maryville IL.
My condolences to all involved.

What do you think? Or was it the jealous husband of a jilted lover?


[edit on 8-3-2009 by dodadoom]

reply to post by ghaleon12

My comment is more of a test to fellow Christians. I see many inconsistencies with their beliefs and how they act/react to situations and I find it fascinating. There are not many that are strong in faith unfortunately within the Christian community, and it makes Christianity look weak as a whole and a bit confused.

Ghaleon...

I would have to agree with you that many (most?) Christians are not as strong as they could be in the faith. The danger here is that because one Christian claims that God can heal through him, it does not follow that all Christians are able to simply call down miraculous healing form above. The primary reason is that no man, Christian or non-Christian, has the power of miraculous healing; the religion teaches that that power is from God the Father Himself, and only channeled (for lack of a better term) through believers as God wills. Anther reason is that because one is on a journey, it does not follow that he has reached his destination. I believe in faith healing for myself, and have used it many times (which I will not go into further detail on here simply because I do not wish to expose the story of my life trying to 'prove' something to someone who refuses to believe; it is an exercise in futility). Yet I have trouble when it comes to helping others heal. I do not know if I could have brought this pastor healing through God even if God was standing there telling me to. The reason is not that I doubt God, but that I doubt myself. To some degree, we all doubt ourselves. We are bombarded every waking moment of every day of our lives with these five senses that tell us how things appear to be around us, and have forgotten how to see with spiritual eyes. Christianity is a journey to learn to see again, with the help of Jesus. "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."

So for you to state that a lack of healing ability indicates a lack of faith that compromises a Christian's integrity is akin to stating that all plumbers are incompetent because one didn't tighten your faucet enough. It's ludicrous.

Even more ludicrous, however, is using this statement:

Originally posted by ghaleon12
Hey, he got to see Jesus faster than he would have otherwise. His friends and family should thank the shooter. He did his good deed for the day it looks like. I mean he did help someone go to heaven, what could be better?

and then attempting to imply it was just a comment. That is no comment, good sir. That is an insensitive, hateful, crassly sadistic attempt to maximize suffering of others. That man had a family, a wife, children, parents, siblings... do you care nothing of their pain? Surely you have felt loss; how would you have felt if someone had berated your loved one(s) in your presence, openly despising them for no other reason than who they were?

Good backstroke, but I think an open apology would be more apt than a half-hearted and transparent attempt at justification of the unjustifiable.

TheRedneck


[edit on 8-3-2009 by TheRedneck]

Why didn't this "rambo" just shoot himself and save everyone else the needless anguish?

Wouldn't it be better for a Christian pastor, who accepted Jesus as his savior and therefor is going to heaven, to die instead of someone who might not have been a Christian? The shooter could have decided to kill himself and his family would have been in anguish also. If you're a Christian and you know you're going to heaven because you've accepted Jesus into your life, there really is nothing left for you to do here. So if you leave, what's the big deal?

First of all, I hope that the shooter rots in hell.

Such a common Christian sentiment. Jesus would be proud, lol. Forgiving and turning the other cheek and all, but where's the fun in that right? *Sigh*

[edit on 8-3-2009 by ghaleon12]

reply to post by dodadoom

Everyone whats to speculate motives so I will to first thought that came in to my head is wow another complete nut job, I read the post further and then thought maybe some antichristian nut job read a little further and thought hey maybe he was a pedophile. Then I thought If some one abused my child what would I do? I realized yes I may attempt some sort of revenge, same token though I don;t want to be in prison the rest of my life away form my kid. So I don't go do it during sunday services I plan it out and try to get away. That logical though and not all are so it is a possibility but my first assumption still stands he was just a nut job


[edit on 8-3-2009 by frankdatank]

reply to post by dodadoom

Religion is of man, spirituality is FROM God. Peace be with U

And peace to you, my new-found friend. Those are indeed wise words.

We live in an age when association with a label is apparently enough cause to wish one's death. So sad...

-----------------------------------------------
reply to post by frankdatank
dodadoom took 1st place, so let me be the second to welcome you to the wonderful world of ATS, where truth is frequently obscured by intolerance and confusion, but exists for those who seek it hard enough nonetheless.

I find your comments apt and well-informed. You will indeed be tested, as this is no place for the faint of heart. We speak the truth as we see it around these here parts. It's just that not everyone has their glasses on...

TheRedneck

Good posts and thanks for the replies!
All I can really say is God works in mysterious ways.
Unfortunatley so does the devil. If you believe in one....

We can't second guess the reasoning or speculate whether
this would have been better or that. Whether he lives or she dies
based on how we are biased already? It is not our place to judge,
only God's.

It is just a tragedy that I am sure could of been avoided, somehow.
Violence is NEVER the answer, only a temporary solution.
asalwaysonlyinmymosthumbleandslightlytwistedopinion!

[edit on 8-3-2009 by dodadoom]

reply to post by TheRedneck

You too! Thanks for the kind words, most appreciated!
It has taken many years to hone my words to the very least needed. For succinctness' sake!
What you speak of here, I can so relate to! Nice to hear from U!
This site actually gives me some hope for the continuation of mankind!
Hence the name, but dont let it fool ya, I'm on your side.
dodadoom or do whatever U do, but let's just do our best!
Remember, someone somewhere loves U!



[edit on 8-3-2009 by dodadoom]

reply to post by TheRedneck



My posts had nothing to do with healing or whatever the pastor after he was shot. That was a different poster. I never said anything about healing ability and level of faith. Our level of faith and understanding should determine how we react to painful events. My observation over the years is the inability for some, a lot, of Christians to listen and take to heart what Jesus says in the Bible. There really seems to be a lack of in depth thought about his teachings and a lack of what it means for their everyday life.

It wasn't just a comment, but an impetus for thought. Do people practice what they preach (or what the Bible says anyways). You can take that comment the way you want, but I posted it as a test. In adversity are you going to apply your faith, or react out of your natural tendencies which is irrespective of Christian beliefs? As Jesus said, you can't ride to horses and draw two bows. You have to choose which way to live life. Bodily pain is one thing, but what about spiritual wellbeing? I'm more concerned for the latter. Is it better to help someone physically and hurt them spiritually or hurt their feelings and help them spiritually? I know which one God chooses

[edit on 8-3-2009 by ghaleon12]

reply to post by dodadoom


I am glad to see my post was useful. Often I doubt the real use of my posts. Wondering is anyone really listening. But so goes the faceless discussion boards of the World Wide Web. ATS is a good site, though there are some posters that will get under your skin though and sometimes they are difficult to ignore.

As for the signatures well I cannot take credit for them a man with a mind greater than my own once said them.

Sort of in regards to the story again though. I still find it almost unnerving how my Pastor’s message today was on death and God’s role as well as how we feel about the loss. Then later we were talking about the possibility of a nut case entering the church and killing the kids as the nursery is closer to the entrance (maybe for ease of parents to drop them off lol).

I partially wonder if the man might have been upset that the Pastor might have mentioned how the church’s offerings were up in such hard times. Or if the man was like some of the Christian haters posting recently on the forums.


Raist


[edit on 3/8/09 by Raist]

reply to post by ghaleon12
Agreed, your posts had nothing to do with healing. My apologies for reading that into them.

But the point I made using healing is still applicable. Just because someone calls themselves a Christian, it does not follow that they are able to fully understand the implications of what that means. Remember that although we are spiritual beings, we are also physical beings. We fear death. We fear illness. We fear want and lack. This is physical human nature, and the normal condition when one is deprived of spiritual truth in favor of physical 'truth'. One cannot demonstrate purely spiritual concepts to someone who is not spiritual without first operating in the physical. Thus, we must be aware of the physical needs of others.

I ask for your forgiveness for judging you so harshly based on that first post. In the ultimate sense, your position does have some validity. It would be better for a Christian to die in Jesus than for a sinner to die without Him. I do not fear death, and hopefully neither did the pastor. My compassion is not primarily for the pastor, however, for he is now where he is, and nothing we can do will change that. There are, however, those who are in mourning for him. They are my main concern, for they are without a doubt in terrible pain right now. Your initial post, if read by a relative of that pastor, could have caused so much suffering needlessly; thus, I take exception to it.

Perhaps you posted in haste.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck

Nice discussion, indeed. But I think that the cops should go and question someone in the Heavens regarding to what happened in Killinois this Sunday.

Hello, and thank you for all the replies,

as to why this happens in church or to a preacher,

god maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Much to early to speculate what the motive was,

Um, I posted a thread on this at 2:25 this afternoon, before yours and before the other guy's whose thread you commented in, over in Breaking Alternative News.

I think it would be good if people did a search before starting a thread.

However, you posted in a whole different forum, and your thread is interesting, so carry on.

For those who wish to join my conversation,
My thread is:
Above Top Secret

Thanks

Originally posted by Sestias
Um, I posted a thread on this at 2:25 this afternoon, before yours and before the other guy's whose thread you commented in, over in Breaking Alternative News.

I think it would be good if people did a search before starting a thread.

However, you posted in a whole different forum, and your thread is interesting, so carry on.

For those who wish to join my conversation,
My thread is:
Above Top Secret

Thanks

Actually I did, and always do search for previous threads, nothing showed up.

You want it you can have it, makes no difference to me.

SUNDAY 8 MARCH 2009 - Investigators with the Illinois State Police arrive at a Troy, Ill. home to serve a search warrant in the killing of the Rev. Fred Winters, senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Maryville. A 27-year-old man is suspected of killing Winters during a morning worship service. Robert Cohen | Post-Dispatch

stltoday.mycapture.com...

I have the name but it isn't official, and I wont post it until it is.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


How tragic. Like others, I am curious to know the motive. Is it a vengeance killing for some unknown, disgraceful act committed by the pastor or was this the act of a deranged lunatic without a cause?

What is also tragic is the lack of compassion in some of the replies to this thread made by those who would rather crack jokes and make insulting remarks against the victim and the faith without knowing all the facts. No bother in replying to anything or anyone specifically.

Whitewave, before you make that ammo run you spoke of in that BTS thread, would you like to carpool?

Originally posted by Sestias
However, you posted in a whole different forum, and your thread is interesting, so carry on.

And that is what makes the difference. You can post the same news story in the BAN forum as well as an alternate forum. It's the only time a topic is allowed in two separate forums without the latter thread being closed.