America's National Church

It seems to me that America has established a national church dispite our founding father's (particularly Thomas Jefferson) efforts to keep that from happening. People here are allowed to practice any other religion, but you are not permitted to take it into the public forum. People have been censored, fined, deamonized, and some have even lost their businesses or jobs for violating this unwritten law.

So what is this religion that is the only one allowed to be discussed by teachers, lawmakers, television hosts, public officials, etc? Athiesim, secularism and darwinism. Athiests, who believe in the god of Science, have a theory of creation, where we go when we die, and our reason for being. Very much like a religion.

PErsonally, I see this as a conspiracy. (Sorry, my boss was just talking to me and I lost my thunder. I did have many more points to make, but I have forgotten them )

i cant believe people think that america is a free country... those people that say that are soo stupid.

i also agree wit' you...

I believe America is freer then most. Given all the nations in the world, our society would be the most free (we can still wear kippas and head scraves to school), but we definatelly aren't totally free.

Originally posted by junglejake
So what is this religion that is the only one allowed to be discussed by teachers, lawmakers, television hosts, public officials, etc? Athiesim, secularism and darwinism. Athiests, who believe in the god of Science, have a theory of creation, where we go when we die, and our reason for being. Very much like a religion.

I really don't see athiesim as a religion. Religion, at least in my eyes, is subjecting one's self to some sort of higher power which one feels will determine one's fate. It is the idea of giving an outside force ultimate control over yourself. This is the same reason why I can't understand people thinking that Buddhism is a religion.

This does not mean that theories or beliefs on a god thing can not exist without religion, but with religion the whole thing just turns into a control factor.

The worst type of control is the kind that we hand ourselves over to without ever realizing it.

[Edited on 24-3-2004 by Jonna]

A conspiracy, indeed.
The conspiracy started a few decades ago, when the CFR was given the task of laying out a path by which the nation would be molded in a manner that would take their faith in God away and replace it with narcissism and the worship of the government. This would make the nation more accepting to becoming part of a one world government and willingly surrendering its Divine inheritance and national sovereignty.

I really don't see athiesim as a religion. Religion, at least in my eyes, is subjecting one's self to some sort of higher power which one feels will determine one's fate. It is the idea of giving an outside force ultimate control over yourself.

I agree with that. In athiesm, however, the higher power is phisics, and science as a whole. You can't get away from the fact that you will die, and rot in the earth (or be burned). Science answers all for many, including myself several years ago.

Religion also often is evangelical. Talk to ZeroDeep about religion, and he will spend tons of time trying to convince you to abandon God and worship science. Many athiests I know are like that, I'm just using ZeroDeep because he's here at ATS and is well known. There are many other members here whose sole goal here is to convince religious people that they are wrong. Athiests (including myself once a long time ago) treat athiesm as a religion without the name.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
A conspiracy, indeed.
The conspiracy started a few decades ago, when the CFR was given the task of laying out a path by which the nation would be molded in a manner that would take their faith in God away and replace it with narcissism and the worship of the government. This would make the nation more accepting to becoming part of a one world government and willingly surrendering its Divine inheritance and national sovereignty.

Where did that info come from, and who or what is CFR? I've not heard of this before.

zerodeep isn't an atheist...well as far as i can remember i don't recall him every saying that. His religion is Jainism i believe. He puts alot of reverence into the Guru Nanak, however he is open minded to discuss all faiths and scientific theories, and I don't think he fully follows the religion of his birth, which is why he is so deep, his mind is still very much open to all and he believes in questioning all.



[Edited on 3-24-2004 by worldwatcher]

Originally posted by they see ALL
i cant believe people think that america is a free country... those people that say that are soo stupid.

Have you done any traveling outside the US? Try going to China, Saudia Arabia or Belarus. You would then see, that compared to alot of the world, our freedoms are almost infinite in comparison. Try going to several former Communist Bloc countries and ask them what was it like living under that form of Govt?

TO appreciate what you have, you need to leave it and see how others have it.

Originally posted by worldwatcher
zerodeep isn't an atheist...well as far as i can remember i don't recall him every saying that. His religion is Jainism i believe. He puts alot of reverence into the Guru Nanak, however he is open minded to discuss all faiths and scientific theories, and I don't think he fully follows the religion of his birth, which is why he is so deep, his mind is still very much open to all and he believes in questioning all.



[Edited on 3-24-2004 by worldwatcher]

I'm not sure if I buy that. A while ago (before I left for my sabbatical) we got into it, (I think it was in that if being gay is ok in the eyes of God thread), and in his opening arguement he explained that I'm an idiot because I'm a christian. Hence the last line in my sig

so because he doesn't believe in christianity and considers you an idiot...he is an atheist?

go search some of zerodeep's posts. He is very much into eastern philosophy and does believe in a god, just not your god.

[Edited on 3-24-2004 by worldwatcher]

Originally posted by worldwatcher
so because he doesn't believe in christianity and considers you an idiot...he is an atheist?

No, no, no. It wasn't just that post, it was from many posts I came to that conclusion. You're more then likely right, however, as you know him better then I.

I was, however, just using him as an example for a larger point. Let's talk about the big picture and stop talking about ZeroDeep. I admit, I'm wrong . But what do you think of the actual issue I posted about?

lol..we'll drop the zero for now.

back to your topic.

actually I think the conspiracy is on the Christian side. Our President is actually pushing his church, his beliefs and morals on to us and not remembering to seperate church and state.

But where in the constitution does it say there needs to be a seperation of church and state? Where does it say a public official cannot believe in God?

And just a few examples to back up what I'm saying:

Officials in Stanislaus County, Calif. removed a 40-year-old memorial from public property there because the monument included a cross and might infringe on rules about church-state separation, reports the Modesto Bee.

Organizers of a St. Patrick�s Day parade in Georgia have refused to allow a local youth group to carry a cross in their parade because it might be too �controversial,� reports the Athens Banner-Herald.

Cadets at the Air Force Academy in Colorado are being admonished for sending an email to colleagues encouraging them to see Mel Gibson�s The Passion of the Christ, reports the Associated Press.

City officials in Scotsdale, Ariz. have told a gallery owner there that he must remove a statue of Jesus from the sidewalk outside his gallery or face $5,000 a day in fines, reports the Arizona Republic.

These are just a couple of examples of what a line from a letter by Thomas Jefferson, taken out of context, has done to our country. A letter, in fact, to a church, where he said he would not establish a national church. You know, the same Thomas Jefferson who put into the national budget funding to change the capital building into a church on sundays and hire a minister so that he and other congressmen could go to church when they were in the capital running the country.

Originally posted by worldwatcher
actually I think the conspiracy is on the Christian side. Our President is actually pushing his church, his beliefs and morals on to us and not remembering to seperate church and state.

Ya, that whole American Christian Coalision thing has come up a lot concerning what can be said over the air waves lately.

The seperation between church and state really seems like an illusion to me. I can't believe that someone from his advisors hasn't taken Bush jr. to the side and told him to quit pushing god in his speaches. Someone either needs to stop lieing to the American people or learn how to lie better.

Originally posted by Jonna

Originally posted by worldwatcher
actually I think the conspiracy is on the Christian side. Our President is actually pushing his church, his beliefs and morals on to us and not remembering to seperate church and state.

Ya, that whole American Christian Coalision thing has come up a lot concerning what can be said over the air waves lately.

The seperation between church and state really seems like an illusion to me. I can't believe that someone from his advisors hasn't taken Bush jr. to the side and told him to quit pushing god in his speaches. Someone either needs to stop lieing to the American people or learn how to lie better.

See, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. Bush is being deamonized because he has faith in a higher power. People want him censored because they don't like to hear the word "God." If you'll note, he is always careful not to say which god, although we all know. So is it your contention that public officials aren't allowed to believe in God, or if they do, no one can know? I think that'd prove my point quite well...

no one is saying that a public official can't believe in god, just that he should keep his beliefs to himself, how can you run a country on beliefs that do not apply to entire population.

i actually understand islamic countries more, and why their govts are so tied to religion...it is because the entire population is muslim..so applies.

In the USA, we come from different places with different beliefs, none are better than other, so why should our Christian president force us to listen to his morals. If we had a Jewish or Buddhist president pushing his morals...I am sure everyone would be complaining.

Originally posted by junglejake
Where does it say a public official cannot believe in God?

I don't think that it has anything to do with believing in any version of god, but rather pushing those beliefs on people by constantly slipping them into speaches that have nothing to do with god or religion. I seriously doubt that Bush is qualified in any sense to speak to the American people about spirituality. Trying to colour in the lines with big crayons perhaps, but not spirituality.

Originally posted by worldwatcher
no one is saying that a public official can't believe in god, just that he should keep his beliefs to himself, how can you run a country on beliefs that do not apply to entire population.

No person who has ever run any country has run them on beliefs that apply to the entire population. If there could be, we wouldn't have political parties. One person would run for government and everybody would vote for them. How is it that he needs to keep his beliefs in God to himself, but public officials can openly talk about evolution with no problem? It's totally contrary to many people's beliefs, but it's accepted. Why?

i actually understand islamic countries more, and why their govts are so tied to religion...it is because the entire population is muslim..so applies.

The entire population is not muslim! They're the majority, but there are many Christians, Jews, Athiests, etc. who live there. I'm not sure about the eastern religions, but I do know the others are there.

In the USA, we come from different places with different beliefs, none are better than other, so why should our Christian president force us to listen to his morals. If we had a Jewish or Buddhist president pushing his morals...I am sure everyone would be complaining.

But when we have someone forcing us to listen to them talk of secularism, evolution, abortion, etc. it's ok. As long as you believe in a religion that doesn't call it's self a religion, you can force people to listen to your morals and beliefs? It seems like a double standard.

Originally posted by junglejake
No person who has ever run any country has run them on beliefs that apply to the entire population. If there could be, we wouldn't have political parties. One person would run for government and everybody would vote for them. How is it that he needs to keep his beliefs in God to himself, but public officials can openly talk about evolution with no problem? It's totally contrary to many people's beliefs, but it's accepted. Why?

eh? I don't understand. So scientifically proven things should not be believed but belief in book written thousands of years ago should have more precedent? What is the problem with officials speaking about evolution? There is more of a case to support evolution than there is to support Genesis. I would think that evolution is accepted and okay to talk about because it can be logically understood not blindly believed in.

and NO bush didn't run for office on his beliefs, but now that he is in office he is slipping his beliefs in everything even when it doesn't apply.

can't address the other issues you brought up now, gotta go, will come back to it later