Round 1. NephraTari V ilovepizza: Sinned Against or Sinning

The topic for this debate is "The US is more sinned against than sinning."

NephraTari will be arguing for this proposition and will open the debate.
ilovepizza will argue against this proposition.

Each debator will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

No post will be longer than 800 words and in the case of the closing statement no longer than 500 words. In the event of a debator posting more than the stated word limit then the excess words will be deleted by me from the bottom. Credits or references at the bottom count as part of the post.

Editing is Strictly forbidden. This means any editing, for any reason. Any edited posts will be completely deleted.

Excluding both the opening and closing statements only one image or link may be included in any post. Opening and Closing statement must not carry either images or links.

As a guide responses should be made within 18 hours. However if the debate is moving forward then I have a relaxed attitude to this. However, if people are consistently late with their replies, they will forfeit the debate.

Judging will be done by an anonymous panel of 11 judges. After each debate is completed it will be locked and the judges will begin making their decision. Results will be posted by me as soon as a majority (6) is reached.

This debate is now open, good luck to both of you.

I would like to start by Thanking Kano for allowing me the opportunity to challenge myself once again by participating in this tournament and the Judges for donating their time to determine the winner.

I would also like to say greetings and good luck to Ilovepizza, I look forward to a heated debate.

In this debate I will show that the US has committed fewer sins than those that have been commited against them. Historically speaking we are a nation of helping and generousity, striking out only when necessary.

I will prove that the United States has committed more sins than those that have been commited against the United States.

The US always wants to be the most powerful country. If the US gets attacked or something does not go their way, they have to retaliate. They not only retaliate against the people that sinned them, but they also attack any group of people related to the sinners. A good example of that is the retaliation after 9/11. The US not only attacked Afghanistan, but they also attacked Iraq. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, but the United States felt like they had to prove no one messes with the US. The US went and took over Iraq and all of the oil. That seems like a big sin to me since Iraq did nothing to the US.

The United States may not have been a country for as long as most have, but they have done plenty of sinful things. I will show many other examples of when the US attacked and sinned just for power. The United States would not have become the great power it is today unless they did whatever it takes to become this powerful.

Originally posted by ilovepizza
The US always wants to be the most powerful country. If the US gets attacked or something does not go their way, they have to retaliate. They not only retaliate against the people that sinned them, but they also attack any group of people related to the sinners. A good example of that is the retaliation after 9/11. The US not only attacked Afghanistan, but they also attacked Iraq. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, but the United States felt like they had to prove no one messes with the US. The US went and took over Iraq and all of the oil. That seems like a big sin to me since Iraq did nothing to the US.

For whatever reasons are given in the end, I think we can rule the war on Iraq out as a sin as it was an action made to eliminate an evil ruler from power and return the country to a new government of their choice.
Eradicating evil has never been a sin.. god has always supported holy wars.

Taken from www.smh.com.au...
Over a period of a month 12 years ago, Iraqi soldiers loyal to Saddam Hussein took busloads of men, women and children - blindfolded and bound - down a dusty road outside the small town of Mahaweel.

There they pushed the people, possibly up to 3000 of them, into trenches, shot and then buried them. But one, a 12-year-old boy named Nasser, survived. The bullets missed him - twice - and he managed to crawl to a shallow end of the mass grave, where he bit through the rags that bound him.

I don't think anyone can question the evilness of Saddam or the good that resulted in removing him from power over the people Iraq.

And since you brought it up... 9/11 was a major sin committed against the US.. not to mention Pearl Harbor.
What did the US do in either situation to warrant such a horrific attack? Those sins committed against the US were some of the greatest sins in recent history and should not be taken lightly.

Yes Saddam was evil but he did nothing to the United States. The US started a war based on a lie which is a big sin. The United States lied to the world and then went against the United Nations. If the Iraq people had revolted against Saddam it would not have been a sin, but the US got involved with something that had nothing to do with the US.

One of the biggest exaples of when the US sinned is when the people from Europe came over to colonize the US. The European settelers used the Native Americans for their own personal gain and cared nothing about the well being of the Native Americans. The Native Americans used to have tribal land all over the US but most of the land was takken by the European settelers. The United States was just starting to be a country and they were already doing sins. Greed makes you want power and most of the time you will do any thing to get the power. The US is greedy so they do not mind doing sins to get power.

Yes 9/11 was a big sin commited against the US. We bombed and attacked an the innoccent country of Afghanistan. Terrorists were staying in Afghanistan but that does not mean we should bomb the whole country. That is a big sin bombing the whole country. Then we used 9/11 as one of the excuses to attack Iraq when Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. That is a sin.

As long as the US is greedy and power hungry they will commit as many sins as they want just to get the power and wealth.

Originally posted by ilovepizza
Yes Saddam was evil but he did nothing to the United States. The US started a war based on a lie which is a big sin.

1. By that logic Moses sinned when he released the 12 plagues on Egypt.. as the egyptians had done nothing to him directly... however not only did god support him.. but he recruited him for the task.. clearly it is not a sin to put an end to evil even when you are not the one that has been sinned against according to god.
2. Saying that the war was based on a lie is a conclusion that cannot be proven either way. Simply because the weapons were not found does not mean that they did not exist. If there was nothing hidden why have so many iraqi nuclear scientists been murdered since the beggining of the war? What would the purpose of a nuclear scientist be if not for developing weapons? Drawing the conclusion that they were just there to make a better microwave is a rather foolish assumption considering the nation is known for trying to take over its neighboring countries.

One of the biggest exaples of when the US sinned is when the people from Europe came over to colonize the US. The European settelers used the Native Americans for their own personal gain and cared nothing about the well being of the Native Americans.

European being the key word here.... This is not a valid argument to this debate as you are talking about the sins of England not the United States... at that point in time they were acting as English Settlers

Yes 9/11 was a big sin commited against the US. We bombed and attacked an the innoccent country of Afghanistan. Terrorists were staying in Afghanistan but that does not mean we should bomb the whole country. That is a big sin bombing the whole country.

I don't believe there is a set of rules in the bible that states how much involvement a country need have to be considered part of the evil and validates a war.. since there is no guideline for this I think only god can determine whether or not it was wrong for us to attack them for training and sheltering the evil people that planned and carried out the terrorist attacks on 9/11 and others as well.

Back to Pearl Harbor now... which you did not address..
What did we do to warrant such an attack? What justification did Japan have for planning such an attack while we were in peace talks with them?

You say, �Saying that the war was based on a lie is a conclusion that cannot be proven either way. Simply because the weapons were not found does not mean that they did not exist.� That is true but you are innocent until proven guilty. The United States went into Iraq on the basis that there were weapons of mass destruction. No weapons of mass destruction have been found yet saying there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq is a lie until the weapons are found. This is just the start of the sins the US committed during the war in Iraq.

It is a sin to kill. The whole purpose of a war is to kill the enemy. Now in war killing the enemy is not a sin since it is self defense, however it is a sin to kill an innocent civilian. According to the Iraqi Body Count Database, a minimum of 8,245 to a maximum of 10,089, civilians have been killed in the war in Iraq. This is total deaths caused by the United States and its allies but it is still a huge sin to kill that many innocent civilians. About 3,000 to 4,000 innocent civilians were killed on 9/11. Think of all of the thousands of more sins committed in the war in Iraq. This does not even include the war in Afghanistan, which was the country that had to do with 9/11. The United States wanted to show they are not a country to mess with, so the US had to start two wars and kill thousands and thousands of more people then were killed on 9/11.

They were European settlers when they came to America but later became Americans. In a speech former president Bill Clinton gave at Georgetown University, he says, �Here in the United States, we were founded as a nation that practiced slavery and slaves were, quite frequently, killed even though they were innocent. This country once looked the other way when significant numbers of Native Americans were dispossessed and killed to get their land or their mineral rights or because they were thought of as less than fully human and we are still paying the price today.� Clinton says we did many sinful acts to become the country we are today. A nation that�s history is full of so many sins is going to keep on doing sins. If you want to see what is going to happen in the future just look at the past.

The attack on Pearl Harbor was a tragedy and a big sin Japan committed. Of course it is not any where near the multitude of the sin the US committed when they dropped two atomic bombs on Japan. It does not matter the reason behind the atomic bombs being dropped because the result was the death and injury of huge amounts of civilians.


This is the link to where I got the number of dead civilians in the war in Iraq. www.iraqbodycount.net...

you are innocent until proven guilty

This is only true for citizens of the United States. That is not a universally excepted rule.
Our inability to prove their evil does not change the fact that they are.. and god most certainly knows they are.
Whatever reasons we gave for going into this war... its end result made it a justified war according to the bible.
Thus not a sin.
Romans 13:3-5
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil.
Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good,
and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good.
But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid;
for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God,
a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath,
but also for conscience sake

Now in war killing the enemy is not a sin,
since it is self defense, however it is a sin to kill an innocent civilian

If you could please provide some scripture citing a basis for your statement about civilians it would be greatly appreciated....
It is nearly impossible for a war to take place without the loss of innocent lives.

This does not even include the war in Afghanistan, which was the country that had to do with 9/11

From State of the Union Address - Jan. 29, 2002(transcript)
"Our discoveries in Afghanistan confirmed our worst fears, and showed us the true scope of the task ahead.
We have seen the depth of our enemies' hatred in videos, where they laugh about the loss of innocent life.
And the depth of their hatred is equaled by the madness of the destruction they design.
We have found diagrams of American nuclear power plants and public water facilities,
detailed instructions for making chemical weapons, surveillance maps of American cities,
and thorough descriptions of landmarks in America and throughout the world."~President George W. Bush

They were European settlers when they came to America but later became Americans

This does not change the fact that those sins where committed BEFORE the United States even existed as a country, anything pre-civil war was not done as the United States of America.

The attack on Pearl Harbor was a tragedy and a big sin Japan committed. Of course it is not any where near the multitude of the sin the US committed when they dropped two atomic bombs on Japan. It does not matter the reason behind the atomic bombs being dropped because the result was the death and injury of huge amounts of civilians.

According to your own words above.. killing in self defense is not a sin. Again I would need a reference as to where it says in the bible that any deaths of innocents in the course of a war is a sin when the war is warranted.
Hiroshima & Nagasaki were chosen specifically because they were hubs for munitions and weaponry manufacturing. The unfourtunateness of civilian casualties was unavoidable because the Japanese purposefully forced their civilians to create these weapons.
Note- other targets, that were of religious basis, etc, were purposefully taken off the list of potential strike areas.

In a speech former president Bill Clinton gave at Georgetown University, he says, ?Here in the United States, we were founded as a nation that practiced slavery and slaves were, quite frequently, killed even though they were innocent.

The deaths of the slaves,while horrible and inconscionable are sins upon the heads of the individual plantation owners that committed those acts.
Not the country as a whole.

Now to address a few more sins that have been committed against the United States.


On January 22, 1917, the German government gave notice that unrestricted submarine warfare would be resumed. When five U.S. vessels had been sunk by April, Wilson asked Congress for a declaration of war.

When Mexicans come to the United States to make a few bucks to send home to their families in Mexico. They are stealing jobs from American taxpayers and pouring all that money out of the United States and into Mexico.


Money has been stolen from the people of the United States by way of the Nigeria 419 scam.. not only have some lost money but also their very identities.

And finally and above all the most numerous sins committed against the United States on almost a daily basis is that of Coveting.
Coveting is so hard to prove but how often do you hear people in other countries speak of the American Dream?
America is a highly coveted nation and the amount of coveting towards this nation

EDIT: Word count.

[Edited on 24-2-2004 by Kano]

You ask me to tell you where in the bible it says it is a sin to kill innocent people. I will show you. "Exodus 23:7b: [The LORD said] ..do not kill the innocent and righteous. For I will not justify the wicked. " The sixth commandment says, "Thou shalt not kill." I may not be very religious but even I know it is a sin to kill. There are exceptions such as guilty people, but it is a sin to kill innocent people. I just proved to you and the judges that it is a sin to kill innocent people.

You are saying it was alright to kill all of those innocent people in Hiroshima & Nagasaki because they were making weapons. Women in America during WWII worked in factories making weapons. That does not mean it would have been any less of a sin to kill them. During a war lots of the people who would have made the weapons are fighting in the war, so they need someone to make weapons. The people that are not fighting are the only ones left to make the weapons. It is very much a sin to drop the atomic bombs on Hiroshima & Nagasaki that killed all of the innocent people working for their country.

You say, "anything pre-civil war was not done as the United States of America". After the Revolutionary War the United States became their own country. When the settlers got their freedom from England, they became Americans. Many sins were committed against the Native Americans after America got its freedom and became a country.

You also say, "The deaths of the slaves, while horrible and inconscionable are sins upon the heads of the individual plantation owners that committed those acts.
Not the country as a whole." If the country does not make it illegal to own slaves and treat them they way they were treated, then the country is at fault. The country is not completely held responsible for the actions of its citizens, but they are somewhat held responsible for what their citizens do.

Since when is it a sin for people from Mexico to come to America and work? Big corporations in America set up plants in other countries all the time so they can pay cheaper wages. They are taking jobs away from Americans more than Mexicans are. Mexicans are willing to work for lower wages so they will get the job to someone wanting a higher wage. They did not steal the job; the company chooses to hire the Mexican over the American. You keep on asking me to find text from the bible to prove that certain stuff is a sin, yet you gave no text to support the idea that Mexicans coming over to Americans to get jobs is a sin.

Before concluding this argument I would like to thank ilovepizza for putting forth such a valiant effort in this debate.

Now for my closing statements...

In this debate I have shown that the United States has been sinned against far more than it has sinned.

• The bombing of pearl harbour
  
• The terrorist attacks of 9/11
  
• The attacks from Germany
  
• The Stealing of jobs and money by illegal aliens
  
• And the money that is stolen from the united states with the Nigerian 419 scams
  
• Not to mention that single most vast well of sins commited against the U.S. daily in the form of coveting.
  Amoung other numerous other sins that befall the United States every day..
  

You have attempted to prove a few sins such as...

• The war with Iraq-refuted with scripture
  
• Afganistan-refuted with Bush's state of the union comments
  
• Hiroshima and Nagasaki-while the death of innocents in a war that is justified is still undetermined... the status of the innocence of those people is not.
  Being civilian does not make one innocent.. those people making the munitions were aiding the evil therefore they were not innocent. While the death of those that were innocent (children, the elderly, those not working in the plants) was brought upon by their government. Not the United States.
  Their government was the one that put them in harms way.
  
• Land stolen from the Native Americans which along with the deaths of slaves is not even valid to this debate as the topic refers to the "United States" the states were not united until after the civil war and thusly we did not exist as the "United States" previous to that time.. And the United States government has since its inception, taken great strides to create a high level of humanitarian policies for its citizens. Aboloshing slavery, giving back lands to Native Americans, and settings standards that the occupants of other nations beg for in their countries every day.

In short I think it is clear that I have effectively proven that the United States has been sinned against far more than it has sinned.

NephraTari you were a great person to debate against and did a wonderful job.


I have shown a lot of the sins the United States has committed. I have shown the sins committed in America. I have also shown the sins the United States committed on other countries.

I have shown references from the bible that shows how they are sins. I have proven my point that the United States has committed far more sins than sin committed on the United States.


It was great having this debate. Now it is up to the judges on who wins. I hope you have a fun time reading this debate judges.

Good job Neph/ilp. Judging will start tomorrow.

Ok, poured water into the bags of InstaJudge, and set them to work.

Results in a day or so.

The judges have made their decision.

A close one this time, in a decision of 6-4, the winner of this debate is ilovepizza. Thankyou go both NephraTari and ilovepizza for an enjoyable debate. Good luck in the next round ilovepizza.

Here are some of the judges comments:

It was a pretty good debate. Nephra Tari did an impressive job here. Pizza put up a good fight. My vote goes to NephraTari.

Interesting debate. I failed to see NephraTari justification for using the Bible to define sin. I don't oppose using the Bible, but there are so many quotes and ways to interpret that I want to see some solid reasoning. ILP approach was numerical, and on that basis, the US has sinned more. This is a by product of being a massive superpower.

This was an interesting debate, and yes, I did enjoy reading. Good work from both of you.

It was a good debate on both sides and both should be proud, I feel that ILP just had the edge.

NephraTari allowed ilovepizza to define the debate as whether or not certain US actions were sins, and NOT the crux of her assigned position that the US is more sinned AGAINST. This allowed the definition of the "US" versus "early America" to have too much weight in deciding the debate, which ultimately went to ilovepizza. Close one though.