Israeli Pilots Deliberately Missing Targets To Avoid Civilian Casualties

Some Israeli F-16 pilots are aborting their missions out of fear their civilian targets are not linked to Hezbollah. Using 'common sense' they sometimes fire missiles to the side of houses and buildings they've been ordered to destroy because they mistrust their militaries intelligence ability.

Israeli pilots 'deliberately miss' targets

At least two Israeli fighter pilots have deliberately missed civilian targets in Lebanon as disquiet grows in the military about flawed intelligence, The Observer has learnt. Sources say the pilots were worried that targets had been wrongly identified as Hizbollah facilities.

Voices expressing concern over the armed forces' failures are getting louder. One Israeli cabinet minister said last week: 'We gave the army so much money. Why are we getting these results?' Last week saw Hizbollah's guerrilla force, dismissed by senior Israeli military officials as 'ragtag', inflict further casualties on one of the world's most powerful armies in southern Lebanon. At least 12 elite troops, the equivalent of Britain's SAS, have already been killed, and by yesterday afternoon Israel's military death toll had climbed to 45.

Now if you want to salute Israeli airmen, these are the people who deserve it. If they can doubt the intelligence they've been given about the targets they are to destroy then there must be obvious signs these are not Hezbollah sites.

It's encouraging to see these acts of defiance coming from the IDF and IAF over what could later be charged as war crimes. Morality and common sense is not dead in Israel

Yes, it shows that there are people flying those planes that have some spark of light in them, and bear in mind, it requires bravery to do that, instead of just following orders.

shows some people actuily care about the value of a human life unlike others

Good to see. This is what RAF and to some extent USAF pilots have been known to do. In fact, the RAF will support it's pilots decisions to abort based on their own observations. Alot of RAF missions do get aborted over civilian death fears.

As for the comment in the article about the troops being equivalent to the SAS. I doubt it.

The units involved are more likely Commando units akin to Rangers, SEALS, or other larger but still Elite formations, which aren't in the same league as the SAS.

Much of Israels army are conscripts, albeit with a high esprit du corps, but conscripts none the less.

I would expect that if they had SAS equivalent units, they wouldn't be used in front line assaults on Bin Jabayl or other towns, rather more likely used in behind the front raids in Baalbek.

What I find disturbing in this is that it may even be an official policy. Mirthful Me pointed this out in another thread, but Tom Ricks is claiming that Israel is not taking out all the military targets it could so as to allow more Israeli civilian casualties to help them maintain the moral high ground.

KURTZ: Hold on, you're suggesting that Israel has deliberately allowed Hezbollah to retain some of it's fire power, essentially for PR purposes, because having Israeli civilians killed helps them in the public relations war here?

RICKS: Yes, that's what military analysts have told me.

KURTZ: That's an extraordinary testament to the notion that having people on your own side killed actually works to your benefit in that nobody wants to see your own citizens killed but it works to your benefit in terms of the battle of perceptions here.

RICKS: Exactly. It helps you with the moral high ground problem, because you know your operations in Lebanon are going to be killing civilians as well.

Source

I'm not saying it's true, but if it is, this is a pretty disturbing development in my mind.

Wow, I remember an almost WORD for WORD title in the beginign of the IRAQI war.

''Us pilots delibartley abort mission to avoid civilian casualites''

what happened in qhana?
what happened with the red cross convoy?
the escaping lebanese?

or did it take time for the reasoning of 'avoid civilians' to hit home?

Praise to them if they are trying to avoid citizens, but from the photos being released, seems they are hitting everything and anything else.

Originally posted by junglejake
What I find disturbing in this is that it may even be an official policy. Mirthful Me pointed this out in another thread, but Tom Ricks is claiming that Israel is not taking out all the military targets it could so as to allow more Israeli civilian casualties to help them maintain the moral high ground.

[...]

I'm not saying it's true, but if it is, this is a pretty disturbing development in my mind.

Thats a very interesting inteview Junglejake. It would not be the first time Jewish lives were put on the line by their Jewish leaders to retain the higher moral ground and maintain influence.

Here is an almost identical historical quotation from David Ben-Gurion speaking of the same practice.

"If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel." David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).

How can David Ben-Gurion rationalize allowing the deaths of half the German Jewish children during WW2 if he could if only it meant securing Israel.

This is one of the major problems I have with Zionism. It exploits the suffering of the Jewish people and fosters anti-semitism because it aids its cause. That is truly unacceptable to me.

If you where in a war zone, heard the planes over head and had a family, wouldn't you hide in your house.. like against a wall incase the ceiling falls in?

Rocket its the side of the house it still falls over, if the people are against the wall they die anyways.

I hope they apply this common sense to their new 20 mile no car policy. Anyone in a car within 20 miles of the border will be destroyed, ambulance or not, station wagon with children waving white flags or not they will be killed.

guess it's the thought that counts....

I read the whole article on the Israelis missing targets for PO, but I know deep inside that is people out there that have more regards to life that others.

I heard in the news that Israel is getting a New General to be in charge of all operations.

I wonder if perhaps Israel is taking into consideration that some of its war missions are not doing very well when it comes to avoiding civilians.

Or having the expected result against Hezbollah.

It's news like these that gives me hope and reaffirms my believe that it's not Israel that is bad, it's the powers that be that control Israel. Just like it is with every other country.

A salute to those pilots, for having the humanity and good sense. Not just a mindlesss zombie robot.

Originally posted by stumason
Good to see. This is what RAF and to some extent USAF pilots have been known to do. In fact, the RAF will support it's pilots decisions to abort based on their own observations. Alot of RAF missions do get aborted over civilian death fears.

As for the comment in the article about the troops being equivalent to the SAS. I doubt it.....

LMAO!!!!

"right oh, good job old chap.....however, you will never be as good as our chaps in jolly old england!"

that's just too rich stu.....lol.

sorry mods, couldnt help myself.....now back to our regularly scheduled topic.

Out of general principle I cannot condone their actions, I can understand why these pilots may have disobeyed these orders but I think they should still be disciplined.


[edit on 9-8-2006 by WestPoint23]

Well, isnt it the exact same case with every battle? You know, soldiers and airman following orders given by "Intelligence" that has been know to be flawed from time to time?

If there is doubt, you cannot wage war. If its a war these days, thats what i question myself. Seems more like a massacre to me.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Out of general principle I cannot condone their actions, I can understand why these pilots may have disobeyed these orders but I think they should still be disciplined.

Indeed, that is the trigger to the great question -- loyalty and obedience or morality and humanity?

Where do you draw the line to keep obeying?

In war not so sure that independent thinking like this is such a good idea. A good soldier is supposed to follow orders and is given just enough info to accomplish the mission. If soldiers disobeyed orders they didn't agree with, then alot of history would need to be rewritten, and not all of it would be good.

As far as the comment that the Navy SEALS aren't in the same league as the SAS...puhleeze. Time to put down those British rose colored glasses Stu.

[edit on 8/9/2006 by Escrotumus]