Discussion: Extreme Theism, will it cause catastrophe?

Well, it�s been an interesting couple of weeks here at ATS. Given the return of extreme theistic posts, and the recent events of Jerry Falwell's influence in our government, it seems like a good time for the return of this topic.

Stepping back to consider all that has happened, and combining that with thoughts of historical events, we can see patterns. I like patterns. History has patterns, people have patterns, people make history, and as we know history always repeats.

From time to time, we encounter extreme theists here on ATS. After some time reviewing other forums (including fundamentalist discussion boards), we are not alone. Also, in my involvement online (beginning with early political conspiracy BBS forums in 1985, 300 baud, woo-hoo!), extreme theists are always just around the corner, and always the same.

But unlike many non-theists, I�ve had a look at the inside of extreme theism. I was once an extremist in training. I was being taught to believe that anyone who was not �saved� would go to hell. I was told not to have any friends who were not �saved,� not to read material written by people not �saved,� not to listen to music performed by people not �saved,� and so on.

Many years later (26!), I can see the results of this type of extreme theist training in several people I meet in person, and encounter online. The extreme theist is unable to regard any topic without some kind of Godly consideration. To the extreme theist, every stressful world event portends the end-times. Indeed, the extreme theist �training� encourages rapt anticipation of the end-times described in Revelation. Forget that billions might suffer horrible pain and suffering, the end is coming the end is coming! Hurray!

The extreme theist created from this kind of conspiracy of spirit, is intolerant to anything not of their brand of theism. They have been deeply conditioned to believe their interpretation of Christianity (or Islam, or what-have-you) is the one and only true version of the dogma. The extremist may go as far as bombing abortion clinics, or strapping TNT to their bodies and running into crowded areas.

But you don�t need to be extreme to be part of the �extreme theism conspiracy.� More moderate Christians often don�t deny the views of the extremists, they�re just not ready to state them with such veracity. Aspects of the extreme theist thinking find their way into more moderate theists. Recent revelations of extreme fundamentalist influence in our country's policy is disturbing.

Herein lies the danger to humanity. Consider for a moment (please) you and your teachers may be mistaken. Will the overwhelming mass of humanity with the same root God, but conflicting beliefs (Judaism, Islam, Christianity), bring about end-times? Will we reach a critical mass of extremism in all three religions that cause the unstoppable chain reaction no matter what we do? In this case, is fervent belief in prophecy, causing humans to move events so that prophecy is fulfilled?

If this is not a conspiracy, what is?

Great post William. And I know exactly what you mean. I myself like you was as you say "In-Training". I studied most of my life in Private Roman Catholic Schools. Man did they try to brainwash me.... But I never fell for it.

There's nothing wrong with being a religious person but what pisses me off is people who try to impose their religion on others. You know what�s funny? All the major religions preach understanding, Tolerance and love for your neighbor, but religious extremists do everything but that. It�s either their way or you go to hell.


[Edited on 23-10-2002 by Ocelot]

Well how about what true teachings of christ have produced??

praying for souls. this is the only reason gods wrath has still not come full force yet
is because of prayer.

what about mother theresa and people like her who build shelters for
the poor and creat orginazations for the poor.

guess what teachings they go by william??

jesus.

But they don't get mentioned. Only "extreme" theism. Any belief og
god is extreme to you isnt it?

But you know what will cause true destruction to the world??

pure evil.

meaniing those who do not follow the true teachings.

evil runs the world.

Ok, im an extreme theist right??

guess what william?

I love you and your family and would take them into my home if you were on the street and love
them like my own family.

yet i destroy the world??

yea.

yet I destroy the world? Truth

Yes, you do. You believe anyone who says different from you will answer to your god. Or, go to hell. Then people like you who say people have disabilities because their ancestors sinned. That is pure ignorance. You spout ignorance, hatred, and stupidity. Clam shell found open disproves evolution. You disagree with me, you will meet my god, blah blah blah.

Religion is a very personal experience and when another implies that because someone. Does not believe as they do they are going to hell (or suffer punishment) at the hands a Deity. They are imposing there system of belief upon another. Throughout history people have done great things and very nice things despite there differences in belief. All religions preach love and respect to others. The problem I feel is when the assumption is made that being saved is something that is exclusive to a specific system of belief. All religions claim that if you accept the prophet or son of God or hand of God they accept you will be
saved. As well to every belief system there is a dark side its that aspect who's intent was to rally troops for war and permission to commit atrocities. Its the ideas which promote the separatist ethic and insist this orientation is necessary to truly be pure.

Mother Teresa was a great and good person, but Torqemada (sp) was not. Despite the fact they both received full support of the Vatican. There behavior was the opposite. So the actions and behavior of these two people invalidates the religion as a cause to define it either as good or evil. This is why the Church is often best considered simply as an Institution. This is why extremist often can be defined as what is wrong with our world. Simply stated most often the ideals they try to promote, are hypocritical in light of the lessons history. Most if not in fact all institutions, cannot live up to what they often claim as valid. To be honest, if one is looking for the closest thing to perfection in relation to religion. Understand them all and take was sincerely, is good about all of them and put it together. More than likely if you do this the responses between different people will not be the same. And that does not make you or them better, its just the next step on the ladder.

Besides being annoying and petty Extremist care more about reflecting differences than discussing what is in common. And the truth is all that leads to is conflict, which is a waste of time. Its also important to remember that when taking everything into consideration. That beyond any shadow of doubt this is just one planet in a Universe. Where by comparison (relative size) is not even equal to a grain of sand.

What exactly is the point of pretending any of us have all the answers. Considering this as plausible (in my opinion) is part of growing up.



[Edited on 24-10-2002 by Toltec]

Go through every one of my post. I never ONCE said any man will go to hell.

Thaat is NOT my descision, nor is it yours.

Its gods and gods descision only, but i will proclaim what he has revealed to me.

as it is written.......

"" those who have never heard of me shall see, and
those who never knew my name shall understand ""

i know what has been revealed to me from not knowing this man two years ago.


but god is teaching me that these disputes are useless.

peace.

You're right, you just say "You will face god's judgement" Or, go to hell. A rose by any other name....

And these disputes are usless, for you think you are right for god talked to you and everyone else is wrong. I once again, rest my case.

'...belief in the existence of a god or gods; specifically : belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of man and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world...' - (Merriam-Webster)

All this mess is not theism!!! It is simple result of long term indoctrination made by CHURCHES. It is not emanation of human believes � it is well trained war dividing people in the past centuries with scriptures always on hand as good machine gun.
Thinking about Illuminati, world-under-control � look for churches.

Great post, William! I totally agree! One thing, though...

What you mean is "organized religion", not theism.

I myself am a theist, which means I believe in God, but belong to no organized religion.

But yes, if you look back through history, the root cause of so many wars and other terrible things has been organized religion. Look at the crusades. Look at WWI. Look at the war we are in today. The root cause of all three has been the rivalry between Christianity and Islam (even though WWI evolved into a strictly European war). And now throw Jewish people into it and the whole thing becomes a terrible mess.

In other words: Why can't we all just get along?

But you're not an "extreme theist."

Wouldn't you say that it is within the apparent nature of "extreme theists" to seek out others like them. And, as a result, they tend to organize themselves into an "organized religion."

First based on doctrine, revelation � members should follow rules � just believe in revelation, looking no proof for God. To be saved they should follow priest�s directions. There is nothing like hot-line to heaven, or God TV channel.

And you have Gnostics - searching and discovering, also organized in kind of churches but far more independent from priests judgments. They where often targeted by doctrine based religions like Qatar�s erased by Catholics. Even prophets in for example Christian religions are in some way dangerous � look for Father Pio history or big secret around Fatima prophecies. All people leaving organized church but believing in Supreme Being will follow sooner or later old path of gnosis. In fact it doesn�t matter if they will be organized it may only help to find personal independence. And �Extreme Theist� is extremely responsible for his life, on the way to self development on the way to �heaven�. No easy answers, no easy confession, no well defined enemies.

It is big difference. �Extreme Theist� � member of well organized doctrine based religion will vigorously follow ACTUAL church direction and doctrine interpretation. If someone else is responsible for translation of God will � finally you will have small group ruling church and supervising members. That is why all doctrine based churches will and are under control or in very close relation with power, money, governments. Because they already have power and Church can control society better than any civil low enforcing institution.

And finally � who is Satan? Satan was always synonym for enemy of church. Church will give you his name and address. It is about him in The Bible! You are NOT responsible for any mistakes. You are not responsible for nothing at all if you are follower of Gods will.
You have and you should kill all Satan�s followers�.!!! Or at least post few nasty words on our board.
It is like business class ticket to heaven.

Exactly! (I mean, that's what the extreme religious right says).

They all spend their time bickering over doctrine, and if you don't agree with what they say, you're going to hell. There's no room for discussion. None. Anyone who disagrees is the enemy and must be destroyed. Aren't these people as dangerous as any we've ever seen?

Sigh!

What ever happened to the concept of, "Your freedom ends where my nose begins"?

If I'm "extremist" for *any* concept, it's this one. Religion...Toss it out the window because it causes more suffering than it professes to relieve; Politics...Don't even get me *started* on that one; Corporate...I don't have a *love* for money, but modern marketing methods seem to make everyone *require* it for mere survival.

Everyone needs to believe in something greater than one's self. This is why I have no problems in Faith for God (any god, really) as long as the believer doesn't let other *people* talk him into doing something that goes against thier god's own basic tenants...And as long as the believer doesn't seek to undermine another's belief.

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
Sigh!

Corporate...I don't have a *love* for money, but modern marketing methods seem to make everyone *require* it for mere survival.

The almighty Captalism...

"Discussion: Extreme Theism, will it cause catastrophe?"

Like it hasn't already been the cause of nearly *uncountable* catastophes throughout known history?


As technology & mass communication progresses, the scale of damage that extremism can cause will only grow in scale. As more people access & come to believe in extremist viewpoints, the more damage will be done.

Unlike what the major organized religions/governments/corporations practice, I believe in censoring myself instead of others.

Yes. This catastrophe is possible because of preprogrammed mass-destruction weapon installed in our minds and remotely controlled. You have this in The Bible (of course in other Holy Scriptures as well).

What is amazing � even in that well balanced ATS community Big Conspiracy means Secret Society with famous pyramid of Illuminati, Masons, etc.

Most powerful organizations, not controlled by any official democratic institution, keeping unknown secrets � operates officially. You may eventually investigate your government (in theory) but do not touch You-Know-Who (in theory and practically).

You may say � I AM NOT A MEMBER OF ANY CHURCH

But it doesn�t means that you are out of their control. They already put some secret keywords in your subconscious. Your reaction to words like �heaven�, �hell�, �Lucifer�, �Satan�, �satanic-cult�, �heretic�, �pagan�, �sin�, etc. is preprogrammed. It is part of our culture, ready to set us to fight with enemies or to give us reward.

Take control over �universal symbols� in your brain and use with caution. Even joking.

Just wanted to agree with what is being said here. There is no Truth to be found except by way of seeking it out in all things that have been written and are yet to be, and what you can learn through your own life experiences, intuitive faculties etc. The one essential Truth is simply this: There is ONE CREATOR of all things, not to be called anything other than that. To say GOD has become a sort of Masculine or Female term, depending whether you worship God or Goddess or whatever. That is incorrect as the Creator is OF everthing so therefore cannot be confused with any specific 'energy' or 'gender'. The subject is far too in depth to go into. But each and every person is responcible for themselves and what they do. Many religeons (Christianity) have provided a warm and fuzzy way out of taking responcibility for your own actions. Why should I worry about what I do? I have been born again in Christ and he has washed me clean, and will continue to do so as long as I worship him. If you truly follow the teachings of that great Master than that may be, but, come on? The majority have no clue what was MEANT by most of what has been revealed by such Masters. RELIGION is not good. POLITICS the same. These two things have and are causing catastrophe as we speak. Both these things where created solely of Man's desire to control his material nature or desires and or control other people around himself. Unfortunately, due to that very nature both of these things (Religeon and Politics) have been destined to fail and reak havoc from the beggining.

Even those who don't claim to be of any particular religion must use "keywords & phrases" in order to communicate; God becomes a nice & handy name that everyone recognizes, even if differing people have different interpretations from the mention of that name...But still, using that name lets everyone know pretty much *what* you're talking about.

In other words, I use the terminolgy but I try not to let it use me...



[Edited on 30-10-2002 by MidnightDStroyer]

a timely bump in the rear for this oldie-but-goodie.

William, you mentioned Jerry Falwell in your first post. How has he influenced our government. What has that bastard done know?