Lake Van Monster - New Theories?

Back in June 1997 there was a very interesting video of the Lake Van Monster from Turkey. Only in 2003 did the ATS community discuss it here... The general feeling was either Hippo or Squid...

The Hippo theory didn't hold up, but the Squid theory got much support.

This video discussion was revived here, so it seems like the ATS community still needs some closure on this topic.

CNN Story on Lake Van Monster & Video

As usual they promised that the video would be analysed by marine biologists ... And as usual we didn't get any feedback... (Or at least I couldn't find any follow-up stories...)

Some (not so good) enhancements:
1. Sharpened
2. Negative
3. Gamma +2

Time we got behind the truth?




[edit on 12-9-2005 by Gemwolf]

Some Squids:



Page on Squid Fishing ... Many Pics




Looking for pics of Squid, I couldn't find a single one where a Squid surfaced. Which raised the question. Would and/or could a squid surface?

So I found this from www.unmuseum.org...

According to Dr. Malcom Clarke, of the Marine Biological Association , temperature also seems to affect the squid's buoyancy mechanism. Warm water will cause a giant squid to rise to the surface and not be able to get back down. With water temperature even higher at the surface, the squid maybe doomed. It is not surprising then, that most squid groundings occur near where two ocean streams, one cold and one warm, meet. Perhaps the squid found himself suddenly in water too warm for him.

And this from nationalzoo.si.edu...

Schools of squid surface at night to hunt lanternfish, shrimp, mollusks, and other cephalopods.

OK, let's say that it was a giant squid. How would it end up there? Would it survive?

Some facts on Lake Van, Turkey:
1. Turkish VAN GÖLÜ, lake, largest body of water in Turkey and the second largest in the Middle East.
2. Lake Van is in the realm of the beauties of Eastern Anatolia. Mountain silhouettes, coves, beaches, islands, waterfalls and centers belonging to various historical ages are located around the lake. There is plenty of sodium carbonate in the lake which is at an elevation of 1720 meters above sea level. The fish caught in the lake are without fat and very delicious.
3. Roughly triangular in shape, the lake lies in an enclosed basin; its brackish waters are unsuitable for either drinking or irrigation. The salt water allows for no animal life save the darekh (related to the European bleak, a small soft-finned river fish of the carp family), a freshwater fish that has adapted to a saline environment.
4. ... a lava flow from the Nemrut volcano extended for nearly 37 miles (60 km) across the southwestern end of the basin, blocking westward drainage to the Murat River and thereby transforming the depression into a lake basin without outlet.
5. The lake is fed by rainfall and meltwater as well as by several tributaries, notably the Bendimahi and Zilan rivers, which flow in from the north, and the Karasu and Micinger rivers, which enter the lake from the east.
More on Lake Van, Turkey

Although there seem to be enough minerals for a squid (weak theory based on the fact that the lake is salty), how on earth would it get in the lake, and survive!? Could it be that a "Giant Squid" was placed in the lake to create this video?

Gemwolf, I was reading that article from CNN Story on Lake Van Monster & Video...Kozak says he saw and filmed the so-called monster on three occasions. Kozak also wrote a book on the creature, including drawings of the monster based on the descriptions of some 1,000 witnesses.

• Ok we have 1,000 witnesses, a book on the creature including drawings based on the witnesses. We need to find this book! I will look around and see what I can find. I hope it was published.
  

He says the creature is about 15 meters (49.5 feet) long.

• Ok we have a monster of 49.5 feet lets just call it 50 feet. That is pretty big. No? To give you an example of what 50 feet looks like I look around on the web. This site stated this truck and trailer is 50 feet long.
  

These following boats are 50 feet long:



The lake covers an area of 1,434 square miles (3,713 square km) and is more than 74 miles (119 km) across at its widest point. Its deepest point is exceeding 330 feet (100 m). I got this info from your same source.

• This is a big lake... Its the largest in Turkey and the second largest in the whole Middle East. A creature 50 feet in length would have a lot of room to move around and with depts over 330 feet a lot of places to hid.
  

The salt water allows for no animal life save the darekh (related to the European bleak, a small soft-finned river fish of the carp family), a freshwater fish that has adapted to a saline environment. ...The fish caught in the lake are without fat and very delicious.

• This the only food source? we need to look at aqueduct plant life and other animals.
  

Finally.. After looking observing the bubbling action in the video it is a bit troubling... What other animal would make this type disturbance in the water like this? I do not believe this to be a squid. The creature in the video has a skin like rough flesh unlike the squid who's skin is sleek and smooth.

Could it be that a "Giant Squid" was placed in the lake to create this video?

Ok not ruling out a giant squid lets say someone did place this in here for the video. Squid do not "break" the surface like this that I know of. They lack muscle to be above water. Now if this is an elaborate hoax with a motor boat and platoon device that would be possible.

If this is a living creature then I am leaning more towards a mosasaur type creature. What do you think. Given the size and the video it is the only thing remotely similar that I can attribute it to.

CNN Article June 12, 1997
The pictures have been sent to Cambridge University for examination, and Jacques Cousteau, the world-famous marine biologist, is expected to visit and examine the lake.

Jacques Cousteau passed away June 25, 1997
Unfortunatley, Jacques Cousteau has died, and we have not received further information about the examination. Perhaps his son and organization will continue the quest.

I sent an email to the son of Jacques Cousteau; Jean-Michel Cousteau. I could not find a direct email for him so I sent it to his orginization in the hopes of contacting him. I am not holding my breath on hearing anything, but its worth a shot. I basicly asked for any information on the topic.

So now what? I am attempting to find Unal Kozak and perhaps his email stay tuned.

Glad to see someone just as excited about the video as myself...

Here are a couple of clips showing squids swimming:
OceanFootage.com
Looking at this I would say (in my opinion) that the Squid theory is ruled out. It is clear that the "face" of a squid is in the middle of the animal, while the creature shown in the video shows the "face" at the end of the animal.

Then there's the problem of the fact that the animal surfaces. We know that some squids "surface" to hunt for prey. (Although they don't usually break surface and "lay" on the surface to "see" what's going on above. It doesn't look like this animal was hunting, as there are no jumping fish, usually a clear indication of a predator.
In the event of a squid loosing its buoyancy, it may surface - and in most cases die. Which was also not the case here.

The "Giant Squid used to hoax the video" is also ruled out, because it would be extremely difficult to catch a squid this size, and transport it to the lake, whilst keeping it alive.
Catching a squid of that size would be an amazing feet by itself. The largest recorded squid (Taningia danae) was 7 feet (2 meters), almost a tenth the size of this animal. Then there is the real "Giant Squid" (Architeuthis dux) which grows up to 59 feet (18 meters), but scientists knows just about nothing about them, because they never studied a live specimen before. Only proof of their existence are dead specimens.

I think this concludes that this animal was NOT a squid.

Here's someone's drawing to "proove" that it's a squid.



I'm still not convinced, as I'm sure we ruled out a squid - with facts in the previous post. And I'm yet to find a real picture of a squid floating/swimming in this position!

Note: Funny enough this monster was reported for the first time in 1995...

I couldn't find anything except for a mention on this book Kozak wrote... You got the name of the book GameSetMatch? It could even be better if we could contact Kozak... (I'll look into this...) Nor could I find any of the eye-witness drawings.

Too bad Jacques Cousteau passed away... That would explain why no-one ever gave any feed-back. But we're eagerly awaiting any reply from his son...?

The Mosasaur is a typical candidate for the creature, but there is little evidence to support this theory, but also no evidence to say otherwise (except for the fact that they're extinct).

You mentioned the bubbles in front of the eye. This is probably a very important clue. Does this give us the idea that the animal breathes air?

I'll also see if I can find anything on the plants in the Lake...

While looking for more info on this topic I found some very interesting tit-bits...

Local folklore also tells that the lake is enchanted and that angels go in and out of the water.

(Source Akdamar Island, Van Lake

Features in a Martian meteorite believed by some to be the fossilised remains of alien bacteria may have formed underwater, scientists claim.

Researchers have found a "striking" match between microscopic features on underwater rocks and mineral deposits from Earth and microbe-like structures in the famous Martian meteorite ALH84001.
...
The evidence comes from volcanic rocks and underwater geological formations called calcareous pinnacles found below the surface of Lake Van in Turkey, the world's biggest alkaline lake.

Source BBC News

With the dawning of the twentieth century, a long forgotten culture has been rediscovered in the Anatolian Highlands of Asia Minor. This ancient civilization, Urartu (pronounced oo-rar'-too), which was centered about Lake Van, flourished from the ninth to the sixth century B.C...

Source Starspring.com

But where exactly was it located Mesopotamian inscriptions do not say; however, the Zoroastrian Bundahishn text and the Christian records of Arbela in Iraqi Kurdistan both refer to a location named Dilamƒn as having existed around the head waters of the Tigris, south-west of Lake Van - the very area in which the biblical Eden is said to have been located.

Source Crystalinks.com

It seems that there is much more mystery to Lake Van than meets the eye at first glance.

I couldn't find anything about the aquatic plants of Lake Van, nor an email address for Kozak...

[edit on 13-9-2005 by Gemwolf]

Image Source, I was looking around trying to match up the creature in the video with a Pliosaur/Mosasaur to best give as evidence or speculation. The picture above is of a Tylosaurus it is from the Mosasaur family per say. I only used it to give the example of the ear canal. I am not totally convinced this is an eye or an ear its all speculation at this point. I am hoping to stimulate thinking. The Tylosaurus max length is 12.3 meters and not our 15 meter suspect. Which brings me to our next animal here called Kronosaurus this creature I think is a pretty good comparison that I can find for now. The problem is with all my species they all have the same common problem. Gemwolf as you stated THEY ARE ALL EXTINCT as to our knowledge...

Check out the original above image from here. It is pretty impressive to say the least.


I used the following pictures together to make a comparison to each other for size reference only to help give a crude look at the size of this thing. This is in no way a perfect image match just a good reference. 1,000 witnesses put the Van Lake monster at 15 meters long (49.5ft)

The photo with the women can be found here; a must see.

Gemwolf, I did find that picture/sketch of the giant squid interesting, and I think you attacked it with the same common sense I would of. I just can not see this as a squid unless it is a hoax. I still think this maybe a hoax all together, but at this point I am not convinced either way.

Yeah Gemwolf regardless of our findings Van Lake and the great surrounding area is pretty interesting.

I will attempt to email this guy too. Did you read this report from 1995??

UPDATE:

1. No email from Jean-Michel Cousteau or foundation
   
2. I have not been able to look for Unal Kozak where abouts or his email
   
3. I have not been able to find Unal Kozak book; I do not believe it was ever published. Found no name of it anyone out there know?
   
4. I have not been able to get around to searching on plant life or other food sources.
   

More to come in the near future!

GameSetMatch, I just love your picture of the Kronosaurus with the Van Lake monster's eye. A quick glance and you'll think it's a perfect fit!
But I guess we can't get too excited. I suppose there's a few animals you can make the "eye" fit... Still, your comparisons are extra-ordinary!

I'd just like to point out something in your above diagram/picture. You suggest that the "eye" seen in the video is in fact an ear, and that the eyes are in the lower sockets. I'd like to disagree with you on this. I'd say that the top sockets are where the eyes are (and thus the "eye" in the video) and that the lower sockets are for the nostrils/sinuses. This would explain the bubbling in the video - if the nostrils are located directly below the eyes (as with the Kronosaurus). "Ears" of reptiles are usually at the sides of the head, just behind the eyes.

But on this point, I think you're spot on with your statement that we might be wrong in assuming that it is an eye. It could be anything. We were "told" in the article that it's an eye, but they're assuming just as much as we are. It could be anything from an ear, to a shoulder, a fin, a tail... Fact is, we don't know. In our frame of reference it looks like an eye, but you know what they say about assumption...

(And looking at the pictures with humans next to the fossil, you get the idea about how big this thing really is! Huge to say the least!)

The thing that bothers me is - as you pointed out to the report - that the monster only made its appearance in 1995. Were there previous sightings but only got publicity in 1995? As we saw, there's a lot of folklore surrounding the Lake and the area, but no prior mention of a monster? And then suddenly a 1000 eye witnesses?

Another thing.... In many of the articles, it is said that eyewitnesses report that the monster has "triangular spikes like a dinosaur". I don't see any spikes anywhere!? The only thing that comes close to a triangular spike, is when the monster swims and it looks like a shark's dorsal fin (second 5 in the video)... Did you spot any spikes?

EDIT: I've written a mail to Jan Sundberg from the Global Underwater Search Team (GUST) an email, asking him his opinion on the video.


[edit on 14-9-2005 by Gemwolf]

While searching I stumbled across this email with reference to the video. Good to hear someone else's view. It just raised a couple of questions.
1. Does he have the necessary experience/authority on the subject to give a believable statement? (I.e. is Rod Matsui who he says he is?)
2. Many of his statements are opinions and not facts.
3. Is there really enough in the footage to comment about the muscular movements of the "animal"?
4. Where is the original video? Is the editing on the original video, or was the editing done by CNN?
5. What Ogopogo video is he referring to?
6. He states his case but at the end - even though it's tongue in the cheek - it looks like he still doubt his own theories.
7. OK, that said - he does state a good case. Let's say it is a hoax. Why? Is it really to boost the area's tourist industry (they say the same thing about Loch Ness)?
Then this was not successful, as it seems like the Van Lake Monster didn't get enough publicity to really influence the tourist industry.

Or is it Kozak who wishes to gain something? Fame? Would a 26 y.o. student have the resources to create such a hoax?
If he was looking for fame, then that also failed. He's not famous at all. His name gets mentioned with the video, and a mere mention of the fact that he wrote a book on the subject - the book's title isn't even given any publicity.

Here's the mail:

I'm a special effects/rubber monster artist who works in Hollywood, and I
have some thoughts I would like to share concerning the Lake Van/Turkey
footage.

I actually do believe in Lake Monsters--at least, some of 'em. Nessie has
had many witnesses over the years, and Ogopogo some very fine video footage.

On to to Lake Van monster, though. My background has trained me to spot fake monsters quickly--in a sense, I fake them professionally myself for movies--and, although there may or may not be something cryptozoological in the lake, I think the Lake Van video footage is some of the more transparent hoaxing I've seen.

The edited nature of the footage, first off, suggests that someone behind
the scenes is trying to prevent the audience from seeing "everything" in the scene. The camera appears to be keeping away from panning left in the moving shot--which is where a motorboat would be if the "creature" were being tugged on a cable/rope.

In the stationary shot, the exhalation from the creature's nostrils
appears not to be respiratory (in-and-out or intermittent), but constant, as
you might see from an air hose.

The moving shot itself suffers from two major flaws:
1., the creature's back never exhibits flexibility, and is perfectly straight, as if the creature's "detail" (ridges and soforth) was modeled on the upper side of a two-by-four (in Plastic Wood, perhaps?) which was then weighted so that it would not float too obviously above the surface. 2., it moves as though being pulled on a cable (hence the tight tracking of the camera on the object, to hide the agency doing the pulling) and does not exhibit muscular action such as that exhibited by the object in the Ogopogo video footage.
The object in the Lake Van footage even "lurches" suddenly, as though the
motorboat's engine had just started up. I personally doubt very much that
the footage shows an animal. In many cases like this, it is useful to
observe not only the behavior of the object being photographed, but the
behavior of the camera as well.

As a point of comparison, though, take a look at the Ogopogo video footage; you will notice many subtle flexibility's and muscular movements as the creature swims and dives. (You will also notice far fewer cuts per minute of screen time--so if there is a puppeteer under the water, they are doing a long and convincing performance.) And the fin slapping the water, to my eye, looks absolutely like a real animal, and not at all like a rubber
puppet. Such convincing movement would be very, very difficult to fake. A
rubber puppet being "motivated" by a mechanism or by a submerged performer would look much less spontaneous. That fin belongs to a powerful animal--and, while much has been made of the fin and the visible "head" or "nose" in the video footage, I am much more prone to stare at the long, thick body trailing behind these, just as obvious (if not more so) although submerged.

Hoaxes can be frustrating for the crytozoologist, but they do keep us on our toes, and can even be enjoyed in a spirit of fun once they are uncovered for what they are--and there's no doubt that, on occasion, certain hoaxes have helped to perpetuate the public's interest in mysterious creatures.

No, I don't believe the Lake Van footage shows an animal--but that's not to say I would go SWIMMING in Lake Van any time soon. Just to be on the safe side. - Rodd Matsui ([email protected])

CNN article related

• email sent to Jean-Michel Cousteau foundation (???) -I have heard nothing.
  
  
• FACT: Jacques Cousteau passed away June 25, 1997
  
  
• Unal Kozak ware bouts or email. [eye witness] (???)
  
• Unal Kozak Lake Van Monster book -I do not believe it was ever published. (???)
  
• Anyone of the 1000 eye witnesses. email, or contact. [eye witness] (???) -long shot, but ATS alone may have some one from that area.
  
• CNN Article June 12, 1997. Someone wrote the article. Someone has the original tape. (???)
  

1995 report related

• [s][email protected] email from the 1995 report.[/s] email no good...
  
  
• Name/email of Provincial deputy governor [eye witness] (???)
  
• Orhan Erman, a biologist professor at Ataturk University in Erzurum. *skeptic (???)
  

OTHER/Professions opinions

• An email sent to Jan Sundberg from the Global Underwater Search Team (GUST) for his opinion on the CNN video. (???)
  
  
• Rodd Matsui ([email protected]) special effects/rubber monster artist who works in Hollywood. *skeptic (???)
  

Lake Van Turkey

• Plant life; alternative food sources (???)
  
• FACT: Darekh a species of herring the only known fish to live in the lake.
  
• FACT: Lake Van is "Brackish water" meaning it is saltier than fresh water, but not as salty as sea water.
  
• Lake Van image from space in 1984.
  
• Landsat image from space.
  

Theories

1. Giant squid
   
   FACT: The largest recorded squid (Taningia danae) was 7 feet (2 meters). Then there is the real "Giant Squid" (Architeuthis dux) which grows up to 59 feet (18 meters), but scientists knows just about nothing about them, because they never studied a live specimen before. Only proof of their existence are dead specimens.
   
   
2. Mosasaur
   
   -Mosasaurus (12,5 - 17,5 meter) Within our size range
   -Tylosaurus (10-12,3 meter) to small
   
   FACT: All known extinct.
   
   
3. Plesiosaurer/Pliosaurid or Polycotylid
   
   -Kronosaurus (9-12.08 to ??? meters)
   -Liopleurodon (12-15 meters) Within our size range
   
   FACT: All known extinct.
   
   
4. CNN video is of an ear or other than; not a eye that was stated.
   
   Complete speculation at this moment.
   
   
5. Hoax rubber monster, pontoon, squid
   
   Complete speculation at this moment.
   

Gemwolf, Thanks for your comments on the Kronosaurus. I agree we just do not know what the CNN video could be Flipper, Eye, Nose, Ear, etc... We can remain split on the eye socket from the skull. I can see the argument from both sides.

In regards to the 1995 report. I have no clue what they are saying of this creature having triangular spikes... It could be a flipper. I do not see it in the video... In any case it could be another creature altogether , but I am not opening up that can of worms. When I think cartoon dinos with triangular spikes I think of a Stegosaurus

Finally, the guy that works in Hollywood and thinks this is a hoax. I laughed at his last statement. "No, I don't believe the Lake Van footage shows an animal--but that's not to say I would go SWIMMING in Lake Van any time soon. Just to be on the safe side." I guess he is not even 100% convinced, if he was he would swim with out hesitation. No?

@GameSetMatch - I'm having troubles with my Internet connection. I'm making this post using a 33.6 kbs connection - which is painfully slow, to say the least. Point is I won't be giving as much input and making as many posts as I'd like to, until my connection is fixed. But I'm sure you'll keep on investigating. And we'd love to hear some input from other members on what we've said so far.

I received a swift and very informative reply from Jan Sundberg, but before we get to that, I'm also awaiting replies from a marine biologist, the Head of Biology at the University of Hacettepe, Turkey, and another member of the Crypto society, whose name I'd rather not disclose right now. I'll explain later - as soon as I received a reply.

Here's Jan Sundberg's reply, and if he's reading this I'd like to thank him for his time and response, here as well.

At 11:46 2005-09-14, you wrote:
>According to the article, the footage was handed
>to Jacques Cousteau for study, but Mr Cousteau
>since passed away, and there was no conclusion
>about the video footage. There's also no other
>satisfying conclusions about the video anywhere one the Internet.

- According to Jacques Cousteaus (eldest) son,
Jean-Michel, Mr. Cousteau never got the footage
before he passed away and afterwards none of the
crew of the Costeau people saw it worthwile to retrive.

>I would like to know if you've looked at the
>footage, and if you have any theories or opinions about the footage.

- I have seen it, yes, and in my opinion the
object which is said to be the "monster" is too
stiff to be a living creature. Unal Kozak, who
alledgely took the footage, have been impossible
to trace and no one at the University of Van ever heard of him.

- On the other hand there appears to be a true
unknown in the lake, since people in Turkey we
have been in touch with say's that Canavar,
Turkish for "monster", is as known there as
Nessie is over in Europe and elsewhere.

- We have advanced plans to go there ourselves
and search for it, but so far we've been stopped
by the ongoing war between the Turkish government
and the PKK, which today are considered to be a
terrorist organization. Lake Van, or Van Gülu as
the Turks call it, is also only 200 km from the
border to Iraq, where the war with the USA seems
to be going on for many years yet.

- If Turkey joins the European Union and thereby
comes to a peaceful solution with the PKK, who we
believe are freedom fighters not terrorists, and
the war between the USA and Iraq comes to a
close, GUST will search Van Gülu and until than I
remain open to what this lake could hide.

Best Regards,
Jan Sundberg, Expedition Leader
GUST

Thank you, thank you Gemwolf for your contribution and continued interest on this. Perhaps the turkey government just doesn't want to let the secret out. I mean come on they supposedly a huge freighter type boat up on mount Ararat they will not let anyone up there to even say "yay or nay" on that subject.

I do not think anyone out side of Turkey is going to go in and search for our creature any time soon. The best we can do is keep plugging away at people in Turkey who are from Universities, biologist, and local people.

Hmmm from your email response they said Kozak has been imposable to trace and the University of Van hasn't even heard of him... That is troubling since it is stated in the CNN article that he was a teaching assistant there!

He also stated that Jean-Michel Cousteau said his crew never got the footage that is also troubling. So this is leaving me at two extremes either A. The whole thing is a hoax. or B. There is a creature there and the Turks do not want anyone to know about it. I am not convinced either way... I think that is what is driving my enthusiasm.

*Update
I sent an email to a local cottage/resort that appears to be right on Lake Van asking if they had any information , stories, folklore, pictures of the beast.

I also sent an email to the owner of this website. (prehistoricsillustrated.com) I challenged him to see if any of his featured artist would look at the CNN footage and our forum topic and come up with their own drawing or sketches of our Van creature. This is more of a fun thing I did to try and break up the madness. Check out the featured artist gallery page they are a must see.

Lastly, yes I would like to hear from the members of ATS on this topic. Anyone's input would be greatly appreciated even if you think its a hoax to the real thing. I think Gemwolf and I would be anxious to read others posts.

Originally posted by Gemwolf


Looking for pics of Squid, I couldn't find a single one where a Squid surfaced. Which raised the question. Would and/or could a squid surface?

A live giant squid (Architeuthis) has never been documented to this day.

Though there is no pictures of it Im aware on a handful of events in which Giant squids were seen on the surface of the ocean.

The French dispatch steamer Alecton 1861 witnessed a giant squid and even attacked it with harpons on the surface.

A.G. Starkey, who was stationed on a British trawler in World War II. Reported seeing a giant squid on the surface.

October 1966, two lighthouse keepers at Danger Point, South Africa, observed a baby southern right whale under attack from a giant squid

In 1965, a Soviet whaler watched a battle between a squid and a 40 ton sperm whale.

Thanx for your input ShadowXIX.
This does thus mean that the giant squid does "surface", but only to hunt? But none the less I think we've got enough "proof" that the creature was not a squid - unless it is a new species of squid?

I've got nothing to add today. Still no replies from the Biologist, University Professor nor the other crypto specialist.

Looking at your "summation" of what we've got so far, GameSetMatch, it seems that like any good mystery we have now more questions than when we first started. LoL.

Well, looking at what we've got so far: Two specialists from different backgrounds (a movie special effects specialist and the other a specialist who makes a living out of searching the planet's waters for cryptoids) both saying that the creature's movement is "too stiff" to be a real animal. But both saying (or at least suggesting) that there probably is something in Lake Van. And it has a (Turkish) name: Canavar.

And from what we've got so far it seems that Unal Kozak does not exist. There's little to confirm the existence of this person, except for the mention of his name in the CNN article. I'll write a mail to the University he supposedly worked for. But let's think about it - he should be 34 by now. He had a good education and "supposedly" wrote a book on the topic, and he should have done some serious investigation into the Monster. A person with this résumé should have more hits on his name on Google. But the question remains: Why? Why hoax this? This story was big enough for CNN to report... That should say something? Or was CNN in on it? Was the story done "tongue in the cheek"? Did CNN maybe want to do a story on the Lake Van Monster, but had no material on the subject?

But GameSetMatch, I think you might have touched a serious topic. The Turkish government. This might be something the conspiracy theorists will have a ball with - personally I'm not into that sort of thing. But it does look suspicious. A person (and any sign that he existed) vanishes without a trace. The video disappears. The Turkish government is known to disallow investigations into possible extra-ordinary places/objects/events.
This is starting to sound like something out of a movie? The mention of Freedom fighters/terrorists... War... Yeah... I'm sure Hollywood would be able to pull a movie out of this one! LoL.

It would be interesting to see what (if so) the Prehistoricillustrated artists come up with. Can't wait!

I think even if the video was a hoax, we need to do some investigation into the Lake Van Monster as there's little documentation about it on the Internet. Brilliant idea to start getting some info from the locals! My we should look at the Lake Van Monster without the video in mind - or at least for some part of the investigation?

First of all you have to escuse myself for my bad English, but I don't have english classes for about ten years.

In this discussion everybody is forgetting an important detail, and that is the food and type of preys the lake has.
Mosasaur or a Kronosaurus were great predators 65 millions years ago. To exist they need they need big preys like PLessiossaurus, or in another words they need tons of food to live. A big animal like a Mosasaur needs an ecossistem apropriate to his needs, and I don't think this lake have the conditions to maintain such an animal. And so I don't there is any big reptile in this Lake.
A giant squid? Are there any tipical preys of a giant squid in the lake?

Originally posted by Gemwolf
Thanx for your input ShadowXIX.
This does thus mean that the giant squid does "surface", but only to hunt? But none the less I think we've got enough "proof" that the creature was not a squid - unless it is a new species of squid?

Yes thank you ShadowXIX for the input; The one thing that came to mind with the accounts of the giant squid was 2 of the accounts where of the giant squid attacking another giant animal, and probably the reason the squid was above the surface was due to the whale brought it there. Of course this is all speculation, but it brings up a question that there is no large animals other than our creature in Lake Van. No whales, manatees, dolphins , etc... that we know of. This same issue plagues my theorys as well. No large food source...

Originally posted by Gemwolf
Looking at your "summation" of what we've got so far, GameSetMatch, it seems that like any good mystery we have now more questions than when we first started. LoL.

Well, looking at what we've got so far: Two specialists from different backgrounds (a movie special effects specialist and the other a specialist who makes a living out of searching the planet's waters for cryptoids) both saying that the creature's movement is "too stiff" to be a real animal. But both saying (or at least suggesting) that there probably is something in Lake Van. And it has a (Turkish) name: Canavar.

And from what we've got so far it seems that Unal Kozak does not exist. There's little to confirm the existence of this person, except for the mention of his name in the CNN article. I'll write a mail to the University he supposedly worked for. But let's think about it - he should be 34 by now. He had a good education and "supposedly" wrote a book on the topic, and he should have done some serious investigation into the Monster. A person with this résumé should have more hits on his name on Google. But the question remains: Why? Why hoax this? This story was big enough for CNN to report... That should say something? Or was CNN in on it? Was the story done "tongue in the cheek"? Did CNN maybe want to do a story on the Lake Van Monster, but had no material on the subject?

Yup Gemwolf, we have more question than answers! lol Why has Kozak not resurfaced? CNN never followed up. Where is Kozak now? Where is the 1,000 witnesses why haven't atleast one of them come forward? We could go on for ever with these questions. Its madness I tell ya hehe.

Originally posted by Gemwolf
But GameSetMatch, I think you might have touched a serious topic. The Turkish government. This might be something the conspiracy theorists will have a ball with - personally I'm not into that sort of thing.

But it does look suspicious. A person (and any sign that he existed) vanishes without a trace. The video disappears. The Turkish government is known to disallow investigations into possible extra-ordinary places/objects/events.
This is starting to sound like something out of a movie? The mention of Freedom fighters/terrorists... War... Yeah... I'm sure Hollywood would be able to pull a movie out of this one! LoL.

Hmm They should call the movie "VANish"

Originally posted by Gemwolf
It would be interesting to see what (if so) the Prehistoricillustrated artists come up with. Can't wait!

I think even if the video was a hoax, we need to do some investigation into the Lake Van Monster as there's little documentation about it on the Internet. Brilliant idea to start getting some info from the locals! My we should look at the Lake Van Monster without the video in mind - or at least for some part of the investigation?

Yeah I hope the owner of the website picks up on my interest. If I do not hear anything from him by Sunday I will send out an email to all his artists. Yup I think locals would be our best source at the moment and I did not even mention the CNN report when I sent the email to the resort on Lake Van. I did not want to spook'em or anything.

YES, you hit a very important question and I have not forgotten it. An animal almost 15.24 meters (50 feet) in a lake with no other known food source could not at least logically survive. Unless it is vegetarian and most of the large dinosaurs where vegetarians. If that was the case that would explain why people are not coming up missing. Take for the known Crocodile of Burundi Africa named "Gustave" he has eaten up to 300 villagers! If a large carnivorous creature was in Lake Van people would be missing guaranteed.

Other Gustave links:
www.nationalgeographic.com...
news.bbc.co.uk...
www.google.com...

[edit on 16-9-2005 by GameSetMatch]

[edit on 16-9-2005 by GameSetMatch]

[edit on 16-9-2005 by GameSetMatch]

Originally posted by GameSetMatch


Yes thank you ShadowXIX for the input; The one thing that came to mind with the accounts of the giant squid was 2 of the accounts where of the giant squid attacking another giant animal, and probably the reason the squid was above the surface was due to the whale brought it there. Of course this is all speculation, but it brings up a question that there is no large animals other than our creature in Lake Van. No whales, manatees, dolphins , etc... that we know of. This same issue plagues my theorys as well. No large food source...

I have to agree with your conclusion in the accounts with the whales I say its likely the squid was being attacked by the Sperm whale and brought to the surface by the air breathing whale. Beaks of giants squids have been found in the bellies of Sperm whales before. Some estimates put giant squids making up 30-40% of a sperm whales diet.

As for the accounts of the Giant squid on the surface by itself I dont know. Some smaller squids spend their days in the very deep ocean but come close to the surface at night to feed. But we cant say if Architeuthis exhibits the same behavoir. Most scientist think the giant squid lives most of its life in the ocean at 200-1000 meters in depth.

But none have ever been found in any Lake so I dont think its likely its a Architeuthis dux. If a it is a squid perhaps the Humboldt squid. In Baja they reach 50-100 pounds in weight . In other places they can grow as big as 16 feet long and weigh several hundred pounds.

They can prove to be quite agressive if provoked as well. More then one mexican fisherman have been attacked by what they often call the "diablo" squid and have the sucker and beak bite scars to prove it.