A Fresh Start: Masonry Good or Evil.

Lets see if we can get an actual discussion going.

Some ground rules for this thread that I request all posters follow. (Pretty please? With sugar on top??)

1. No name calling.
2. Try to stay on the topic of the moment.
3. One or two quotes per post.
4. No posting random quotes without acknowledging where they came from. If you got them from website X say so. from book x say so from a quote from book x on website y say so.
5. Don't just post quotes, Tell us what you think the quote means.
6. Please respond to other posters questions and comments. This thread is for a discussion not a soapbox for you to rant on.
7. This thread is about Masonry, please leave other societies/groups out of this discussion.

I hope everyone can get something out of this thread, if nothing else an understanding of the other side.

OK to start things off two questions. Please give your personal opinion in your own words.

Is Free Masonry good, evil, neither? and why? Please keep it shortish for now.

Would you join the Free Masons? and why? Again shortish, If you are currently a member what were your reasons at the time you joined?

I'll start.





I think Free Masonry is good. To me it is doing what they say, making good men better.

No I have no interest in joining. For one I'm not interested in an all male group, I do enough things that tend to be male dominated and I think they all suffer from the lack of women.

The other reason is I can't see how Thelema could fit giving the rules of Masonry (Only one God for example.. I have several and none at the same time.). Another thing is the morals they teach seem to me to be mostly Christian morals.. I'm not Christian and I don't have Christian morals. (or Islamic or Jewish morals for that matter. Several of the eastern beliefs might come close.).

That said I do know of Thelemites who are Masons and they do get something positive out of it.


.

I don't think masonry is good. Any organized group of people who keep secrets should not be trusted. The Nazi organization was secret before WWII, and so is the KKK, we just know alot more about these two groups because they are not driven by wisdom. Masons hold secrets about the world that everyone should know about to better mankind. The fact that they pledge thier allegence to the society, and also hold political positions, such as president of the united states. I don't know about you, but i want the president to have allegence to our country, not masonry.

And in theory, I would like to join, just to find out what they know, so I can expose them for what they are. The only problem with this is that only 33rd degree or higher masons are told what is actually going on in the organization. The smaller ranks just perform rituals, and have secret handshakes. So it would be pointless for me to attempt this idea i had.

I get most of my information from

Behold a Pale Horse
a book by: William Cooper

and other random websites also

Notice how the two groups you made reference to were hate groups.

I think Freemasonry is a good thing. It gives a person a wonderful sense of brotherhood and respect.

Would I like to join the Freemasons? Yes I would. The only person in my family that was a Mason was my great grandfather, I want to continue that short tradition with myself and my future children.

Thanks for posting!

Originally posted by kataclysmik
I don't think masonry is good. Any organized group of people who keep secrets should not be trusted. The Nazi organization was secret before WWII, and so is the KKK, we just know alot more about these two groups because they are not driven by wisdom.

Well Mine Kampf [sp?] was published before 1925 and it's certainly gave a pretty good incite that things were not looking good for the Jews. Similarly the KKK published what amounts to manifestos declaring their beliefs. If you think the masons are like the mentioned groups what did they write showing their up to no good actions/plans?

Masons hold secrets about the world that everyone should know about to better mankind.

I believe what they hold secret is their method of teaching. The the subject matter being taught is out there if you look. Are these secrets something you want to have? why?

The fact that they pledge their allegiance to the society, and also hold political positions, such as president of the united states. I don't know about you, but i want the president to have allegence to our country, not masonry.

I believe the masons here stated the oath they took Masonry came after god, family and country.. but I could be wrong.

And in theory, I would like to join, just to find out what they know, so I can expose them for what they are. The only problem with this is that only 33rd degree or higher masons are told what is actually going on in the organization. The smaller ranks just perform rituals, and have secret handshakes. So it would be pointless for me to attempt this idea i had.

So I guess your saying the masons are deceiving people when they say master masion is the highest, and the rest kinda go sideways. Why would they do that? I mean if the 33 was the highest what benefit could come from saying the 3rd is the top? Another thing you mentioned 33 and higher.. what's higher?


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[edit on 6/2/2005 by Cug]

Originally posted by Majestic12
I think Freemasonry is a good thing. It gives a person a wonderful sense of brotherhood and respect

So you're more interested in the Brotherhood than any secrets or lessons they could teach?

There seems to be a ton of information already posted about this topic in these forums.
Alot of people have gone into great lengths to explain things from a masonic perspective.

Do a search and take a look around, I believe you will find quite a bit of information.

Gods Peace

dalen

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by Majestic12
I think Freemasonry is a good thing. It gives a person a wonderful sense of brotherhood and respect

So you're more interested in the Brotherhood than any secrets or lessons they could teach?

Of course not.

Originally posted by dAlen
Do a search and take a look around, I believe you will find quite a bit of information.

You are correct.. but if you notice few of those posts can truly be called a discussion ie an exchange of ideas. That's why this thread has "A fresh start" in the title.

So would you care to share your ideas?

Originally posted by Majestic12
Of course not.

No offense meant. I'm just asking a question to expand on the subject your post.

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by dAlen
Do a search and take a look around, I believe you will find quite a bit of information.

You are correct.. but if you notice few of those posts can truly be called a discussion ie an exchange of ideas. That's why this thread has "A fresh start" in the title.

So would you care to share your ideas?

Originally posted by Majestic12
Of course not.

No offense meant. I'm just asking a question to expand on the subject your post.

It may help to have a basic list of all the stuff that has already been listed as a negative along with there rebuttals as a spring board for this debate.

Gods Peace

dalen

dalen,

I don't think that would be a good idea. Part of the reason I requested to limit quoted text, is people around here tend to post a list of 10 to 20 quotes at a shot. It's really a pain to debate 20 things at the same time. If there was a list of pro's and con's well that seems to me like it would end up the same way. See what I'm getting at?

I'm just waiting for someone to post something really ascinine.

Originally posted by Majestic12
I'm just waiting for someone to post something really ascinine.

I wouldn’t say that this rises to the level of your expectations, but there appears to be some discrepancy with your post. I can’t quite put my finger on it… Let’s just call it a monkey hunch.

Asinine Monkeys, not just for olive branch threads anymore…

I do not mean to ruin a good, full-on discussion with flippancy...
but perhaps it was meant to be "Ascii-9".

With Freemasonry, what you put in will determine what you get out.

That works for membership and community service for Masons as much as it does for negativity and hostile antagonism of the angry amongst the uninitiated.

Define first the principles of good and evil, first, then I'll tell you wether or not the masons are evil.

Mc donalds is evil, any company that is that big and has that many locations, has the potential to become an evil corporation. Masonry is also a big organization...

Mc. donalds also has good french fries, and thay are cheap. That's good right? They create jobs in towns across USA.

Any organization has the potential to be viewed as good and as evil, so asking a broad question like this gets us nowhere as far as information goes. If you want evidence and quotes, one must ask a more specific question in hopes of getting answers.

It is my personal belief that masonry is an inherantly good organization, because the reason it is founded promotes positive ideals. Ideals like charity, brotherhood, and relief. It is intended to help its members, also a positive aspect.

The main reason masonry is attacked by non masons, is because masonry does nothing directly for individuals outside of masonry. It is because they are too afraid to join, or because they won't admit to the belief in god; that these people don't become masons. Rather than learn about masonry from masons, they learn about masonry from the interntet. The first sites they find are by some acid-head conspiracy nut, that says masons eat thier first born children or something, perpetuating a falsehood. These people then refuse to validate the claim, and come here and clutter up valuable discussion space with conspiracy nonsense.

But seriously, this discussion has no direction to it, what are we here to prove?...

Originally posted by kataclysmik
And in theory, I would like to join, just to find out what they know, so I can expose them for what they are. The only problem with this is that only 33rd degree or higher masons are told what is actually going on in the organization. The smaller ranks just perform rituals, and have secret handshakes. So it would be pointless for me to attempt this idea i had.

You would appear to be grossly misinformed. Here is a quote from the "Scottish Rite Freemasonry, Northern Jurisdiction" web site (www.supremecouncil.org...) that explains what the 33rd degree is:

What is the 33rd degree?

This degree is conferred only on a limited number of 32nd degree Scottish Rite Masons who have performed outstanding service within Scottish Rite or the Masonic fraternity or those who have given exceptional service in some other field of endeavor

Originally posted by kataclysmik
I get most of my information from

Behold a Pale Horse
a book by: William Cooper

and other random websites also

That explains a lot. Instead of looking at "random websites" and kook books (want to read about Bill Cooper's sad end? Take a look at this: www.sierratimes.com... ... nutball shot a cop in the head) you might want to learn how to identify which websites provide you with reliable information versus those that don't. If you don't see any sources cited, chances are it's bad. Additionally, always check at least a few of the sources to make sure they're being accurately used... lots of "conspiracy" web sites like to make up quotes or take things out of context.

Originally posted by CugPart of the reason I requested to limit quoted text, is people around here tend to post a list of 10 to 20 quotes at a shot. It's really a pain to debate 20 things at the same time. If there was a list of pro's and con's well that seems to me like it would end up the same way. See what I'm getting at?

This is a good idea. Long rambling posts making a dozen points or more are very hard to respond to. I don't know about others around here but I fit ATS into lunchtimes and when i can in the evening. Single issue posts/queries can be handled quickly and we have a much higher chance of reaching a resolution on the issue.

I quite like the idea of a masonry Q&A but people would just argue about its content just like they do now

I hope my reply is in the spirit of this thread

Picking up on one of your points...

Originally posted by Eyeofhorus
The main reason masonry is attacked by non masons, is because masonry does nothing directly for individuals outside of masonry.

Traditionally the charitable aspect of freemasonry has been conducted quietly, behind the scenes. This is because freemasons believe the best way of giving is privately, secretly if you like, so as to be quite clear that the purpose behind the giving is purely altruistic and not for any personal publicity.

Unfortunately the critics of freemasonry bayed so loud that now figures are being released for the work that is being done outside of freemasonry. I can think of two good examples:

The Shriners - a network of masonic-sponsored hospitals for non-masons. A huge financial input from the freemasons of North America.

Grand Charity - supported by freemasons in England, the Grand Charity has given £22m to non-masonic charities since 1983, and the annual figure is growing.

Charitable giving is just a small part of freemasonry, and the benefit of the money contributed is perhaps less important than the personal lesson the giver learns through the charitable act itself.

But I think it is unfair to say that freemasonry does nothing for non-masons.

Do we really need another open thread on this ?

It has already ran out of steam on the other 3 threads.

Lets talk about something that really matters.

There is plenty more to life on the ATS site besides Masonry.

Cug nice tread, I hope it stays so.

I feel masonry is good because it is a method to help improve the individual. Therby encouraging him to do good in society. Hopfully improving society as a whole.

Maybe a Q & A tread would work.

Becoming a Freemason was perhaps the best thing that's ever happened to me in my lifetime. I've met some of the greatest, biggest hearted men and women to ever grace this earth. Almost all are God-fearing upright citizens and then there's the few you wonder who signed their petition . The biggest secret of Freemasonry is the food shhhhhhhh don't tell anyone.