U.S. Troops Kill Two Civilians in Iraq

U.S. soldiers kill father and mother in front of Kids

MOSUL, Iraq (AP) — U.S. soldiers opened fire on a car as it approached their checkpoint in northern Iraq, killing two civilians in the vehicle's front seats, the military said Wednesday. Six children riding in the backseat were unhurt.

things are getting way out of hand in the middle eastern situation and everybody is loosing their temper. how many "incidents" and civilian tragedies like this one occur every day, nobody knows.



source:
bbc.co.uk/news
liberty-forum

Now this is a tragety for sure. But please also mention that the driver failed to stop after multiple warning shots in the air. With all the suicide bombings, I cant imagine why they wouldnt shoot a car that wont stop even after warnings.

yes i understand the situation and the reason for american soldiers to be extremly cautious, especially with all sorts of checkpoints and border crosses.

stilll, nobody knows how many innocent lives are lost everyday, due to situations like this.

i am not blaming the u.s. troops,
they are just doing their "job".
it is more a anti-war cry,
dedicated to the people who wage this war,
and do not care about the lives being lost,
especially lives of children...


[edit on 21-1-2005 by Souljah]

The car was approaching a stop point, the soldiers fired warning shots and it didn't stop. They did exactly what they were required to do.

Originally posted by Nygdan
The car was approaching a stop point, the soldiers fired warning shots and it didn't stop. They did exactly what they were required to do.

i already know "that"!
explain that to that little girl on the picture...

I don't know about this whole warning shot thing. I mean, all of a sudden you see soldiers firing guns in the air around you...My first inclination would maybe be to get the hell out of there.

Originally posted by Souljah
explain that to that little girl on the picture...

'Listen, shut up, your mommy and daddy were too stupid to not rush up to a group of soldiers, i said stop crying, did you hear the machine guns, no, not when they ripped thru your mommy and daddy, when they were fired as warning shots, listen orphan, er, I mean kid, if you are going to keep crying I suppose there's no sense in explaining this'.

But then again, I'm probably not very good with kids.

...My first inclination would maybe be to get the hell out of there

Right, not to drive torwards the soldiers. This isn't the first time this happened over their, and the parents had to be aware that americans weren't particularly liked over there and that people were attacking them in just that way. When the americans started shooting, they should've stopped and ducked. The continued to drive torwards the shooting soldiers.

is there any evidence to why they kept driving towards the soldiers? No dud bomb in the car, no reason to die to get to the other side. There is something not being said. Does anyone else think it's possible they're making up the warning shots part?

I don't think they are making up the warning shots story. But I do speculate the the driver of the car probably panicked and hit the gas without really thinking. It's a very very unfortunate event, but the soldiers did what they had to do. The soldiers would have paid a heavy price if they had let a car come right at them and it happened to be a car bomb.

So, no fault on either side really, just very unfortunate.

US soldiers in Iraq approach a car after opening fire when it failed to stop at a checkpoint. Despite warning shots it continued to drive towards their dusk patrol in Tal Afar on 18 January.

Chris Hondros a photographer with Getty News was on hand to record these pictures.


Inside the car were an Iraqi family of seven. The mother and father were killed but their five children in the backseat survived, one with a non-life threatening wound.


As the children get out of the car one of them screams, her hands covered in blood...


…others cry or just stand bewildered.


The injured child is given first-aid by a US soldier...


...as is his sister...


...before being taken to a local hospital...


...with the rest of his family.

A soldier carries one of the children into the hospital while an older sister carries her brother.


Doctors rush the children inside to ensure no-one else is wounded.


At the checkpoint a US soldier examines the car.

A US military statement said troops trying to stop the car used hand signals and fired warning shots before firing directly at the car, killing the driver and front seat passenger.

(Note: Driver's face obscured)


The statement also said that military officials extended their condolences for this "unfortunate incident" and were investigating.

Photos: Chris Hondros/Getty Images


That windshield looks different in the last photo.
It appears to have more bullet holes than in the photo before it.

Newsweek had a good article a couple of days ago called 'checkpoint madness'
In that article, they mention what a big problem these checkpoints are.
Even members of the Iraqi government are having problems at the checkpoint.

Baghdad’s Checkpoint Madness
Probably no single aspect of the American presence in Iraq has so infuriated Iraqis as their treatment at these checkpoints. The lines are long, and as everyone in Iraq now knows, a long line is an invitation to a bombing. Tempers fray among Iraqis and the beleaguered soldiers—usually reservists, often on their second, extended tour in Iraq.....

....Hachim al-Hassani, another minister, of industry and minerals, who was a long-time exile in the United States, has suffered two humiliating incidents. While in the Governing Council, he was denied entry on his way to an important meeting (Iraqi government offices, especially at the cabinet level, are nearly all in the American-controlled Green Zone). When he protested, a soldier lost his temper and punched him in the face, according to Al-Janabi. Al-Hassani confirmed the story, saying, "Yes, I was punched by a soldier. I was very calm with him. I just kept talking to him. He kept punching me, and I kept talking to him. The situation was very dangerous. We handled it very wisely at that time. I kept thinking I still have major things to do for my country. I was thinking about the [Iraqi Islamic] party. I was thinking about my country. It could have been much worse.".......

......"Every single minister has been treated in an unacceptable way by soldiers," Al-Janabi says. At every cabinet meeting, he says, there would be at least one minister who arrived late, and hopping mad at his treatment outside.

Originally posted by sensfan
I don't know about this whole warning shot thing. I mean, all of a sudden you see soldiers firing guns in the air around you...My first inclination would maybe be to get the hell out of there.

Then you would die, just as they did, because instead of shooting the guns into the air, they would be shooting the guns at you, just as they are trained to do, in order to prevent suicide bombers from driving up to them and exploding themselves.

Too many suicide bombers load up their cars with munitions and forcibly drive past roadblocks with the intent of driving into a crowd of people and then detonating the munitions. Their goal is to kill themselves (so that they can go to heaven) and to kill as many others as possible. It's no longer a new trick. It's old and the troops are wise to it.
.

This kind of brutality and terrorism inflicted by US forces is common place in Iraq. I can understand why the Iraqi family did not stop. Nor would I, if I heard gun shots and Nazis stopping me on roads. If you stop, you still could be screwed.

Originally posted by Yxboom
It's no longer a new trick. It's old and the troops are wise to it.

wise to it?
they have solved that problem, by shooting at it.
there is nothing "wise" about that.
just plain old "cowboy democracy",
where innocent people die,
but nothing is every solved.
just more people dead,
more people suffering
and more people killing each other.
and that is not WISE for me...

As unfortunate as the event was, it seems that "could" is out of the equation, huh, Indigo_Child?

These people have been enduring these routine stops for how long now? Signs are posted at these checkpoints? Seems that they are standard ongoing operating procedures for military checkpoints in Iraq or are they? Indications are, in general, they are. If, in panic, the man decided to keep driving towards this checkpoint, despite the warning shots fired, the question is why did he keep driving towards the checkpoint, the origin of the warning shots?

Interesting how many people forget the everyday overlap and occurance of attempted and actual car bombings taking place. Standard operating procedure at military checkpoints are straight forward: Signs are posted, warning shots are fired, and unfortanately, the side of caution is taken, and that is to open fire on that still oncoming vehicle. There is no second chance here for a soldier. Your damned if you do and damned if you don't. The problem is that one decision may be seen and contrieved as an inconvenience, whereas on the other hand, not taking action "could" cost this soldier his life and his buddies life, along with any civilains in the area when that car "could" have been a suicide car bomb.

Unfortunate event, as is hindsight being 20/20. The car may have been revealed to not have had been a rigged car bomb, but in the position of those soldiers at the checkpoint, and the daily car bombs that are attempted or do occur, do you or "could" you take that chance to second-guess otherwise?




seekerof

[edit on 21-1-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
As unfortunate as the event was, it seems that "could" is out of the equation, huh, Indigo_Child?

These people have been enduring these routine stops for how long now? Signs are posted at these checkpoints? Seems that they are standard ongoing operating procedures for military checkpoints in Iraq or are they? Indications are, in general, they are. If, in panic, the man decided to keep driving towards this checkpoint, despite the warning shots fired, the question is why did he keep driving towards the checkpoint, the origin of the warning shots?

I think the actions of the driver shows that this is not the case. It shows that he strongly distrusted the occupying forces and that he wanted to get away from them as soon as possible. I can understand his emotions, he had his entire family in a car, I can understand what kind of fears flashed in his head as soon as he heard the gun shots.

This actually give us more insight into how the Iraqi people are perceiving the occupying forces. Now, why is this? I don't know.... probably because more than 100,000 innocent Iraqi civillians have been gunned down. If I was in his shoes I would have done the same.

It does not matter what you say about what they "should" be doing. I would trust an Iraqi would know more about what is happening in his/her country, than you would from reports from CNN. And from what we can see; he fears the occupying forces. And he is right to fear them - as we can see from how this family was shot at.

[edit on 21-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Insurgents in Iraq have been setting up fake roadblocks themselves.
When he heard the gun shots, he may have thought it was insurgents.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
I think the actions of the driver shows that this is not the case. It shows that he strongly distrusted the occupying forces and that he wanted to get away from them as soon as possible. I can understand his emotions, he had his entire family in a car, I can understand what kind of fears flashesd in his head as soon as he heard the gun shots.

So how does contiuning to drive towards them, after warning shots are fired, demonstrate that he just wanted to "get away from them as soon as possible?"

What would you have done if you were a soldier there?

Originally posted by COOL HAND

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
I think the actions of the driver shows that this is not the case. It shows that he strongly distrusted the occupying forces and that he wanted to get away from them as soon as possible. I can understand his emotions, he had his entire family in a car, I can understand what kind of fears flashesd in his head as soon as he heard the gun shots.

So how does contiuning to drive towards them, after warning shots are fired, demonstrate that he just wanted to "get away from them as soon as possible?"

What would you have done if you were a soldier there?

First and foremost, If I was a solider there, I would have given the US government the two fingers and packed my bags and went home. However, in this situation, I would have shot at the tires to disable the vehicle and then ordered them to leave the vehicle.

What is more important here, is the victim's reaction. Let's not forget who the victim is here. It's the innocent Iraqi civillian. And as we can see, he fears the occupying forces so much, he would risk escaping from them than be caught by them. Take note.

[edit on 21-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]

as posted by Indigo_Child
...It shows that he strongly distrusted the occupying forces and that he wanted to get away from them as soon as possible.

You can continue to spin this to your own perception of what is taking place, but a minority does not constitute a majority who think and feel otherwise.
Despite the "distrust," the man, with his family, was approaching a military checkpoint, a routine occurance in Iraq. Just what exactly, objectively speaking here, does the drivers action indicate? When you get done explaining your anti-war viewpoint on this, how about next, objectively, as well, place yourself in the positions of these soldiers and then further explain how they interpreted this drivers actions, k?


As to this:

....because more than 100,000 innocent Iraqi civillians have been gunned down...

Really?
Source for that factual research?
Sure you aren't misrepresenting "died" with "killed"?
Strange how the this anti-war site says otherwise: Iraqi Body Count
Even they debunked those numbers;
IBC response to the Lancet study estimating "100,000" Iraqi deaths

Strange how that figure was debunked sometime ago, huh?
100,000 Dead--or 8,000 --How many Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the war in Iraq?

Another, perhaps?
Bogus Lancet Study

More can be provided upon request.




seekerof