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DEBATE CHALLENGE: jarrod v. IronDragon

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posted on Jun, 18 2003 @ 04:42 PM
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Starting from this thread: www.abovetopsecret.com... A challenge has emerged.

So, in the interested of civilized debate, we are taking the issue to the debate forum.

The topic: The Federal Emergency Mangement Agency is actually an arm of the "shadow government", poised to take over and remove your rights at a moments notice.
Some people have referred to it as the "secret government" of the United States. It is not an elected body, it does not involve itself in public disclosures, and it even has a quasi-secret budget in the billions of dollars. This government organization has more power than the President of the United States or the Congress, it has the power to suspend laws, move entire populations, arrest and detain citizens without a warrant and hold them without trial, it can seize property, food supplies, transportation systems, and can suspend the Constitution.


IronDragon will argue the position of affirmative.

jarrod will argue the contrary position and has won the toss for opening statement. (jarrod can pass his first post to IronDragon if he wishes)

The format will be:

1 opening statment from each side.

8 alternating posts from each side. Each post cannot exceed 1,000 words and my not have more than one reference link (images are considered a reference link).

IronDragon has first closing statement (like the opening statement, he can pass to jarrod)

Each side may have 1 follow-up rebuttal post to the other's closing statement, but rebuttals may not exceed 200 words.

Please follow all other rules of ATS Online Debate posting in the Debate Forum.



jarrod, the debate thread is yours.




posted on Jun, 18 2003 @ 04:52 PM
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I pass the opening statment to my opposition. I wish to go second into the debate!



posted on Jun, 18 2003 @ 05:27 PM
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FEMA is by all means a complete perpositioned shadow government. This organization has all aspects of a normal government, without the protections afforded to the civil liberties of the citizens as provided in a democratic government.

What is truly frightening about FEMA is that it exists not by the decree of the people as in a true democracy, but was created by Executive Order of the President of the United States, and is executable solely under the auspices of the President, with no provision for judicial oversight, as is the government of the United States.

FEMA was created by Executive Order 12148 July 20, 1979, by President Jimmy Carter. There was no possibility of judicial or legistlative oversight to the creation of this new federal agency by any entity other than the president of the United States, and indeed, once an appropriate "National Emergency" occurred, and the FEMA protocols were enacted, even the president no longer has any authority to govern the acts of FEMA. Certainly, at that point, FEMA no longer has any obligation to follow the Constitution of the United States, or the Bill of Rights, and in all likelihood, will not, as most of the Directives set down for FEMA specifically violate standard American Civil Liberties.

Other Executive Orders subsequently signed and put in place for further directives of FEMA include the following:

Executive Order Number 12148 created the Federal Emergency Management Agency that is to interface with the Department of Defense for civil defense planning and funding. An "emergency czar" was appointed. FEMA has only spent about 6 percent of its budget on national emergencies. The bulk of their funding has been used for the construction of secret underground facilities to assure continuity of government in case of a major emergency, foreign or domestic.

Executive Order Number 12656 appointed the National Security Council as the principal body that should consider emergency powers. This allows the government to increase domestic intelligence and surveillance of U.S. citizens and would restrict the freedom of movement within the United States and grant the government the right to isolate large groups of civilians. The National Guard could be federalized to seal all borders and take control of U.S. air space and all ports of entry. Here are just a few Executive Orders associated with FEMA that would suspend the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. These Executive Orders have been on record for nearly 30 years and could be enacted by the stroke of a Presidential pen:

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990 allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995 allows the government to seize and control the communication media.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997 allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998 allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000 allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001 allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002 designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003 allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004 allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned, and establish new locations for populations.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11005 allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11051 specifies the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11310 grants authority to the Department of Justice to enforce the plans set out in Executive Orders, to institute industrial support, to establish judicial and legislative liaison, to control all aliens, to operate penal and correctional institutions, and to advise and assist the President.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11049 assigns emergency preparedness function to federal departments and agencies, consolidating 21 operative Executive Orders issued over a fifteen year period.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11921 allows the Federal Emergency Preparedness Agency to develop plans to establish control over the mechanisms of production and distribution, of energy sources, wages, salaries, credit and the flow of money in U.S. financial institution in any undefined national emergency. It also provides that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress cannot review the action for six months. The Federal Emergency Management Agency has broad powers in every aspect of the nation.

www.trunkerton.fsnet.co.uk...

Indeed, in the case of REX84 facilities, which are constructed, operated, and administrated by FEMA, plans are currently in place specifically to eliminate and violate the civil liberties of all American citizens: specifically, there are plans for the specific incarceration, without reason or judicial oversight, of entire populations of Hispanics, African Americans, and those designated as likely to oppose FEMA authority, or those who possess privately owned firearms. Indeed, FEMA is already currently running operations, even outside of National Emergencies, to identify individuals and populations who fit these criteria.

So, in other words, not only is FEMA a complete, self contained, prepositioned government, it is a complete self contained totalitarian monarchy devoid of any hint of human rights.



posted on Jun, 18 2003 @ 05:29 PM
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The United States government is made up of many agencies and branches. These branches and agencies work together to make a fully functional government. Today, I will show you that the Federal Emergency Management Agency, FEMA for short, is not a shadow government poised to take over and remove your rights at a moments notice by going in depth on how FEMA’s creation began, how FEMA operates, where the budget money goes and how it could not take away rights without the consent of the government. To some conspirators, FEMA was going to take over the government in three opportunities; however there is no proof of this. If FEMA is some all powerful, evil agency with the ability to control every citizen, why hasn’t it done it already. If FEMA was created to take away laws at a moments notice why wouldn’t the government have done it? It would have had the same affect internationally. I will also try to prove the conspirators are wrong using past examples and new information. My opposition will might say, why would a government agency have more power than that of the government. My answer is, it isn’t. I ask you who is stronger, the wild lion, or the cage to keep it captive?



posted on Jun, 18 2003 @ 06:12 PM
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Some interesting points:

If FEMA is some all powerful, evil agency with the ability to control every citizen, why hasn’t it done it already. If FEMA was created to take away laws at a moments notice why wouldn’t the government have done it? Posted by Jarrod

The short answer to this is that no "national emergency" of sufficient magnitude has occurred to justify the implementation of the FEMA protocols. Some argue that the World Trade Center/Pentagon attacks of 9/11 were a "feeler" to see just how far the government could get away with things, to see if the people of the United States would willingly abdicate thier civil rights to the federal government.

Most likely, the Cabal/Illuminati/NWO are not currently satisfied with the preparations and international financial/cultural/political/economic situation to allow such actions to go forward. Indeed, on a practical level, for the main aims outlined by FEMA for the illegal incarceration of large populations of dissenters, the various intelligence organizations likely do not have sufficient information of the whereabouts of these suspect populations, or the logisitical support for such operations. Acting prematurely and not being able to round up all of them in one fell swoop could easily result in massive public backlash and armed popular rebellion, which is what the Cabal fears the most.

I will also try to prove the conspirators are wrong using past examples and new information. Posted by Jarrod

Please do. I look forward to seeing what you have.

I ask you who is stronger, the wild lion, or the cage to keep it captive? Posted by Jarrod

The point you are missing here is that "discretion is the better part of valor".

Currently, in America, there is approximately 300 million individuals who have come from, or have at least adopted, the mantel of freedom from tyrrany and oppression by totalitarian governments. This freedom is over 230 years old, and is ingrained as an integral part of the American people and government. You cannot yank that kind of heritage out from under such a large population and not expect to have severe opposition and resistance. Considering that at least 170 million of those 300 million Americans are gun owners, in the event of a sudden and unprovoked crackdown on civil rights, the federal government would be facing the largest standing army in the world. (And they would be justifiably pissed.)

(By the way, that is the perfect arguement in a nutshell in favor of private gun ownership, but thats a whole different debate)

Therefore, the monster bides its time. The Cabal, if nothing else, has proven that it has patience. It has existed for over 300+ years, and at least is geared towards projects on a timescale that few in the world (except maybe geologists and historians) can properly understand.

So, the Cabal launches programs like what we see in action today (although we dont recognize them as such, there is much to be said for hiding things in the open).

We see programs of puplic disinformation. We see programs designed to instill fear in the public. When the public is in fear, they are much more ready to loss civil rights in the pursuit of security. We see an encroachment of police state powers (now that a US citizen can be branded a "enemy combatant" and loss all rights and privaleges of citizenship, illegal intelligence gathering on private citizens, illegal databases on gun ownership, ect).

We also see the development and deployment of new technologies designed specifically to control the population (public surveilance cameras, RFID tracking systems, subdermal tracking chips, facial recognition software, carnivore/echelon internet based surveillance software, infrared/microwave/ultrasonic riot control devices).

Most disturbing, we see the fruit of over 25 years of research and development of one of the CIAs brainchilds, MK-Ultra. New technology with the ability to influence the human brain, and combined with new HAARP/scalar technology, the ability to broadcast such mental influence long distances and to affect entire populations.

Oh, the jaws havent snapped shut yet because they havent stretched far enough to encompass everyone yet. But they are getting there.



posted on Jun, 18 2003 @ 06:18 PM
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FEMA was created when “President Carter's 1979 executive order merged many of the separate disaster-related responsibilities into a new Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA)” This has been done recently. Many of our agencies have been pushed together in the interest of National Security to become The Department of Homeland Security. FEMA is just merged agencies to help in Natural Disasters and Breaches of National Security.

In 1992, a category 4 hurricane hit Miami, Florida. Martial Law was enacted. I live in Miami and I must tell you that if martial law wasn’t declared, the disaster would have been much greater. There was looting, armed robbery and violence. FEMA, although came to help later, came in and supplied people with the food, water, and protection the needed. They did not take away our rights in order to take over. They did it to help. Believe me, it did.

According to www.abovetopsecret.com FEMA was going to take over once martial law was declared, and they didn’t. FEMA’s “mission remains: to lead America to prepare for, prevent, respond to and recover from disasters with a vision of "A Nation Prepared."

The executive orders were not created to strip people of their rights but to allow materials to get where and when they need it or stop things from entering. A good scenario would be “The sum of all fear”. (In this day in age, it is a very likely scenario.) If FEMA knew a nuclear bomb was coming into the United States, EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990 (allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports) and Executive Order Number 12656(close all boundaries) would be logical for the prevention and protection of all citizens. In an event of a major danger, FEMA could suspend the constitution in order to achieve prevention. If FEMA needed to use commercial aircraft or train to transport troops or supplies because of a disaster EXECUTIVE ORDER 11005 (allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities and EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003 (allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.) would need to be enacted.

It does this not to take over, but to protect the United States Government and your personal freedoms. In some cases bad must be done, in order to attain a greater good. FEMA is not a self contained, prepositioned government because it works under control of the normal government. Also FEMA is not as my opposition said it to be. He said it was a “totalitarian monarchy”. Actually, the Under Secretary of FEMA is also the under secretary of the new Homeland security Department so FEMA is controlled by our leading government and not some totalitarian monarch.

[Edited on 18-6-2003 by jarrod]



posted on Jun, 18 2003 @ 06:28 PM
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Editting of posts during a debate is prohibited.



posted on Jun, 18 2003 @ 06:49 PM
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Very sorry. My editing was to spread out the document. it will not happen again sorry



posted on Jun, 18 2003 @ 06:52 PM
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Strange you should mention hurricanes in a debate about FEMA... I have lived through a hurricane as well (Hurricane Alicia, 1983, in Houston Texas). Granted, it was only a Category 3, it still made a direct landfall on a very densely populated area, with very massive impact to the infrastructure.

However, FEMA didnt do SQUAT for Houston, or the surrounding areas. As a matter of fact, I believe the only support FEMA gave ANYONE was in flood insurance reimbursement for those whose homes were flooded, and perhaps some small logistical/food support.

The vast majority of all services during Hurricane Alicia were provided by Houston/Harris County EOC (Emergency Operations Command), and various surrounding municipality emergency services. And they did A LOT to help out the general public, everything from swift water rescue to general disaster relief supplies to infrastructure repair.

In answer to your question, why didnt FEMA take over the country due to Hurricane Andrew is very simple: It was a very minor, local event. Yes, it was devastating for those who had to sit through it (as was Hurricane Alicia for myself and those around me), but in the grand scheme of things, it affected only a few hundred square miles, and a few thousand people: hardly enough to justify locking down the entire nation.

However, this is again, a very interesting point: FEMA was very badly whipped for its very POOR response and effectiveness during Hurricane Andrew. It took over a week for FEMA to correctly respond to Andrew, and then, it was only geared towards (as you pointed out) establishing martial law and a very token amount of disaster relief.

As stated in the site I previously posted:

HURRICANE ANDREW FOCUSED ATTENTION ON FEMA. FEMA's deceptive role really did not come to light with much of the public until Hurricane Andrew smashed into the U.S. mainland. As Russell R. Dynes, director of the Disaster Research Center of the University of Delaware, wrote in The World and I, "...The eye of the political storm hovered over the Federal Emergency Management Agency. FEMA became a convenient target for criticism." Because FEMA was accused of dropping the ball in Florida, the media and Congress commenced to study this agency. What came out of the critical look was that FEMA was spending 12 times more for "black operations" than for disaster relief. It spent $1.3 billion building secret bunkers throughout the United States in anticipation of government disruption by foreign or domestic upheaval. Yet fewer than 20 members of Congress, only members with top security clearance, know of the $1.3 billion expenditure by FEMA for non-natural disaster situations. These few Congressional leaders state that FEMA has a "black curtain" around its operations. FEMA has worked on National Security programs since 1979, and its predecessor, the Federal Emergency Preparedness Agency, has secretly spent millions of dollars before being merged into FEMA by President Carter in 1979.

www.trunkerton.fsnet.co.uk...

This is very obvious evidence that FEMA is NOT geared towards assisting the American population in disaster events. If so, they obviously have more than enough resources and personnel to respond at a moments notice with far better assistance than what was rendered during Hurricane Andrew.

(Interesting question: WHO exactly set up martial law, FEMA or local law enforcement? WHO set up disaster relief? FEMA federal employees, or local Emergency Services workers? I am willing to bet the vast majority of the footwork was actually local emergency services people...)

Indeed, the Executive Orders you cite could be used in the ways you describe... that is the justification FEMA gives for thier very existence (without such justification, the population would likely be VERY uneasy with the existence of such EOs). However, FEMA has NEVER used ANY such EO to assist in ANY disastere ANYWHERE. Indeed, as mentioned above, FEMA has a particularly dismal track record of assisting in ANY disaster arena.

Actually, the Under Secretary of FEMA is also the under secretary of the new Homeland security Department so FEMA is controlled by our leading government and not some totalitarian monarch. Posted by Jarrod

This much is true. However, as per EXECUTIVE ORDER 11921: also provides that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress cannot review the action for six months.

That means in the event of a National Emergency, those IN CONTROL are the president and then the director of FEMA. NO other governmental control is possible.



posted on Jun, 18 2003 @ 09:12 PM
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As I would like to point out to you, you said “FEMA didn’t do SQUAT for Houston, or the surrounding areas. As a matter of fact, I believe the only support FEMA gave ANYONE was in flood insurance reimbursement for those whose homes were flooded, and perhaps some small logistical/food support.” which is wrong. First, FEMA acted after that hurricane to prevent future flooding. Second, FEMA funds a lot of those local hurricane forecasting centers, without them you would not know that the hurricane existed.

Moving on to your statement about Andrew well we see that you are wrong. You said “why didn’t FEMA take over the country due to Hurricane Andrew is very simple: It was a very minor, local event. Yes, it was devastating for those who had to sit through it (as was Hurricane Alicia for myself and those around me), but in the grand scheme of things, it affected only a few hundred square miles, and a few thousand people: hardly enough to justify locking down the entire nation.” Hurricane Andrew was one of the most expensive hurricanes amounting in $24 billion. It not only hit Miami, but moved on to hit Louisiana and then cause heavy flooding in the Eastern United States. You go on to say that and I quote, “This is very obvious evidence that FEMA is NOT geared towards assisting the American population in disaster events. If so, they obviously have more than enough resources and personnel to respond at a moments notice with far better assistance than what was rendered during Hurricane Andrew.” The forecasters said that Hurricane Andrew would weaken and turn toward North Carolina and then out to see. The forecasters are not always right and this came very unexpectedly to the people of South Florida. There were so many trees down that no one could reach places. It was a big enough Natural disaster to declare martial law, so according to conspirator websites including this one(not meant to offend you readers), it should have taken over. Explain that one to me. Let me leave the hurricane topic to die and lets move on to the “black curtain) around their operations.

FEMA is not only for natural disasters, Notice in the name Federal Emergency Management Agency. Does that just mean natural disasters? NO! Some of the things that FEMA does has to be kept secret in order to prevent mass panic. You go on to say that, and I quote “FEMA was spending 12 times more for "black operations" than for disaster relief.” Did you ever think that some of that money was going to Prevention of these disasters? Maybe I should hyperlink the goals of the site to you. Part of the Organization is to stop the disaster before they take place.

www.fema.gov...

Also you here that FEMA is building underground bunkers. They do this for their own protection. Suppose they happen to know something you don’t, like an asteroid is coming to hit earth (don’t say I am a fool, there are plenty of Near Earth Asteroids), where would they put the people, or suppose they did meet aliens and they do exist there, maybe they built them for protection from the public or to test new weapons or machines to protect the public. (Remember were talking about rights, I am skeptic on the greys.) I will be very surprise if they are prison camps as some conspirators say.


I also quote you “This much is true. However, as per EXECUTIVE ORDER 11921: also provides that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress cannot review the action for six months.” Well, if FEMA did gain control, the president could issue and executive order limiting the power of FEMA and reinstate the government.



posted on Jun, 18 2003 @ 10:23 PM
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Second, FEMA funds a lot of those local hurricane forecasting centers, without them you would not know that the hurricane existed. Posted by Jarrod

Incorrect. The National Hurricane Center, located in Miami Florida, is funded and administered by the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA). NOAA is a completely different and unconnected federal agency totally independent of FEMA. If you disagree, throw down some links.

First, FEMA acted after that hurricane to prevent future flooding. Posted by Jarrod

As someone who works in the environmental geology area, and also is part of our local EOC, I know a bit about what FEMA does in emergencies... for the most part, this "acting to prevent future flooding" was simply to pay off those who lost property, buy out thier property, and declare it within a flood zone, thereby rendering it useless for future construction. Essentially, FEMA acted like a giant insurance agency (and not a very well run one at that).

Hurricane Andrew was one of the most expensive hurricanes amounting in $24 billion. Posted by Jarrod

I refer you to my comment about the FEMA insurance agency above.

The forecasters are not always right and this came very unexpectedly to the people of South Florida. Posted by Jarrod

I never claimed that FEMA was a weather forcasting agency. Indeed, I pointed out the fact that NOAA was the forecasting agency in this case (which you were incorrect about).

It was a big enough Natural disaster to declare martial law, so according to conspirator websites including this one(not meant to offend you readers), it should have taken over. Posted by Jarrod

My point exactly. Hello, Andrew was a DISASTER, just what FEMA is SUPPOSED to be able to handle. It failed this mission miserably! It took over a week (!) to respond in ANY way! When it did respond, it was wholly ineffectual! But, they have such a huge budget, where is that money going, if they dont have proper resources in place to respond to a hurricane? (The $64 question!)

Part of the Organization is to stop the disaster before they take place. Posted by Jarrod

Part of the organization exists to prepare disasters so as to give itself a reason to continue to exist... but then, thats just us paranoids conspiracists, right?


Let me share a bit of information with you... I am an environmental geologist, and I work for a municipal government. I am also part of the local EOC (emergency operations command), and a standin backup for our HAZMAT department. As part of the EOC, I do work on occassion directly with FEMA.

I can say with complete honesty, due to my direct experience with them, that FEMA, as relates to direct support and response to a true disaster situation, is wholly ineffective. The best that I can say is that FEMA has deep pockets, and on occassion will unload a good deal of cash on us for our LOCAL agencies to deal with emergencies (have yet to see any actual direct support however).

Case in point: Our area has suffered 3 very significant flood events in the past couple of decades. I was part of the EOC during the last event. Our EOC and emergency services bore 100% of the brunt of emergency responses. Because the flooding was so wide spread, we had no way to call on resources from surrounding areas, as most of the smaller surrounding municipalities were looking to us for help.

Where was FEMA? Well, they did show up, after the show was over. In the guise of flood insurance agents.

Advising on building codes and flood plain management

I am VERY familiar with the FEMA flood mapping program and the National Flood Insurance Program (NFIP). For the NFIP, well, its a good buy in insurance, I'll admit that... but it's freaking insurance!!!!! I dont call that a comprehensive disaster response plan.

As for the FEMA flood mapping program (I have a complete FEMA flood map set for our county in my office), well.... I can take any flood map panel at random, pull out the correct USGS topo quad and point out a dozen errors in the flood plains in about 30 seconds... I am NOT impressed with the accuracy of the FEMA flood panels.

teaching people how to get through a disaster...
Have yet to see that in my town...

helping equip local and state emergency preparedness...
Our EOC and emergency services are very well equipped, at our own expense, and have NEVER had assistance from FEMA.

coordinating the federal response to a disaster...
Again, have yet to see this happen in our town...

making disaster assistance available to states, communities, businesses and individuals...
OK, I will say this is something I HAVE seen FEMA do... but hey, isnt that basically pulling up an armored car at a disaster site and handing out money (essentially)? We are back to the great federal insurance agency again...

training emergency managers...
Actually, most of our EOC is retired military, and have come up with our emergency procedures (pretty damn good ones I might add) from scratch. Again, no such support ever seen in our town from FEMA.

supporting the nation's fire service...
Our Fire Chief and HAZMAT Captain would laugh at this!

the national flood and crime insurance programs...
National insurance agency again...

Also you here that FEMA is building underground bunkers. They do this for their own protection. Posted by Jarrod

Ah, you got something right! You fail to mention about the other 300 million civilians who are going to die screaming on the surface. Oh thats right, there NEVER WERE any provisions for them...

PLEASE dont tell me that these previously unknown bunkers are there for the people! At BEST, they may hold a couple hundred thousand.... so the privaledged and wealthy few will get to survive... the rest of us? Well, Im sure the privaledged and wealthy have color TVs and padded leather sofas in thier underground bunkers from which they can enjoy our torment and death.

like an asteroid is coming to hit earth

You never read the comet thread, did you?


public or to test new weapons or machines

Strange you should mention that. It is a known fact, thanks to sleuths who love to slither around the perimeter of Area 51 (with radio scanners this time) that the radio frequencies used by the "camo dudes" there are in fact in a frequency block assigned to, guess who, FEMA! So, why would there be a direct link between FEMA and Area 51, the most secret facility on the planet? I SERIOUS doubt that Area 51 is really a giant bunker to save the population in....

I will be very surprise if they are prison camps as some conspirators say.

In April 1984, President Reagan signed Presidential Director Number 54 that allowed FEMA to engage in a secret national "readiness exercise" under the code name of REX 84. The exercise was to test FEMA's readiness to assume military authority in the event of a "State of Domestic National Emergency" concurrent with the launching of a direct United States military operation in Central America. The plan called for the deputation of U.S. military and National Guard units so that they could legally be used for domestic law enforcement. These units would be assigned to conduct sweeps and take into custody an estimated 400,000 undocumented Central American immigrants in the United States. The immigrants would be interned at 10 detention centers to be set up at military bases throughout the country.

Well, if FEMA did gain control, the president could issue and executive order limiting the power of FEMA and reinstate the government.

Could he? Maybe. At that point, with no congressional oversight, there is NO guarantee that FEMA would obey any order given by the president. Of course, if you honestly believe that FEMA would willingly relinquish control after completely violating every civil liberty of the entire American population, you are beyond hope! FEMA is fully aware that after such an action they would be looking at a nationwide popular rebellion!



posted on Jun, 19 2003 @ 12:51 PM
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What is the proper timelimit between posts?



posted on Jun, 19 2003 @ 02:59 PM
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PLease close the debate



posted on Jun, 19 2003 @ 04:19 PM
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Are you saying "Uncle"?

Might I remind you, this was at your request.



posted on Jun, 19 2003 @ 04:22 PM
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Do you give up, or do you wish a vote count now?



posted on Jun, 19 2003 @ 05:17 PM
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i would just wish it got to the closing statments



posted on Jun, 19 2003 @ 08:16 PM
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Closing Statements

In this debate, I have successfully shown that FEMA is indeed a federal agency that has powers far in excess of its intended role as providing disaster relief. I have proven that FEMA, rather than being prepared to protect the American population from various disasters, whether they be natural or manmade, is indeed designed from the ground up to install controls over the American people and to repeal the Constitutional civil rights guaranteed to every American citizen.

Rather than providing for potential emergencies of any type, FEMA has been granted the right, through Executive Orders, to suspend the constitution, to completely violate the American peoples civil rights, to force them against their will into concentration camps or to detail them into puplic work brigades. FEMA has the right to confiscate all private property and essential supplies for the good of the state.

I have also shown conclusively that FEMA, when faces with a genuine natural disaster, which it is ostensibly designed to respond to, has been extremely slow and ineffective in actual response. Actual support in true emergencies has historically been very trivial and ineffective, despite the fact that it is granted a huge federal budget to prepare to just such emergencies. The question still lingers, exactly what are these funds being used for, if there is no effective response during true emergencies?

I have also shown that FEMA has been linked to various organizations and agencies, most notably Area 51, which has NOTHING to do with the publicly stated mission of FEMA, to deal with large scale emergencies. Indeed, FEMA has been involved in building and installing large numbers of underground bunkers: however, these bunkers are are wholly inadequate for the general American population. However, as described in established literature, this infrastructure of bunkers and networks of communication do in fact fit the criteria for a survival network for the wealthy and influential, likely at the cost of the general American population survival.

It is obvious, upon inspection of these facts, that FEMA is indeed a self contained, self sufficient, preplanned, prepositioned shadow government ready for any suitable excuse to declare a "National Emergency" and therefore suspend all civil rights for the entire American population, with no review or action available from any civilian governmental entity.



posted on Jun, 19 2003 @ 09:12 PM
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I have showed that FEMA has helped, will continue to help prepare, and use there power for good. FEMA had three chances to take over the US and did not take them. IF FEMA wanted to take away all of a persons rights and had the power to do so, they would have do it already. My opposition will claims that the 300 million people on the surface will burn while FEMA lives underground, well he is wrong. FEMA Has done more good than bad, and if FEMA had not been there during those disasters, I probably would have been dead. I Have also told you that even though FEMA is linked to places like Area 51, it is because of human protection. I have also showed you that FEMA can, does, and will use the executive orders for protection and help to make the best of a disaster. I would just like to ask you this. If FEMA had more power than the government and the opportunity to take over, Why isn’t FEMA in power



posted on Jun, 20 2003 @ 07:44 AM
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who goes first in rebuddle



posted on Jun, 20 2003 @ 08:23 AM
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Voting is already underway, but if William is ok with it I guess we can have rebuttle.






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