The Paganism of Christianity

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"The three-in-one/one-in-three mystery of Father, Son and Holy Ghost made tritheism official. The subsequent almost-deification of the Virgin Mary made it quatrotheism . . . Finally, cart-loads of saints raised to quarter-deification turned Christianity into plain old-fashioned polytheism. By the time of the Crusades, it was the most polytheistic religion to ever have existed, with the possible exception of Hinduism. This untenable contradiction between the assertion of monotheism and the reality of polytheism was dealt with by accusing other religions of the Christian fault.

Christianity often tries to cover its ass by saying "three in one is the only way to describe Him, who goes beyond our finite minds. It is a mystery." Yeah, sounds like an excuse to me. Religion always falls back on "It's a mystery." That fails to explain how they can claim to be monotheists yet have three supreme gods, a god of the underworld (not worshipped, but believed in), the mother of God, and tons of saints.

God is the only God.
Jesus is the son of God.
The Holy Spirit is the hand of God.
The angles are servants of God.
Saints are messengers for God.
Satan is not God.

Christians are instructed to pray to God, not Jesus, not the Holy Spirit, not to angels, not to other saints/Christians.

I'm not sure where the confusion is. Bend the spine of that Bible, the whole story is in there.

There are pagan antecedents behind almost every major aspect of Christianity.

It is no coincidence that every major Christian holiday coincides with a pagan holy day?

The central tenet of Christian faith, the resurrection, is a direct rip off of the Dionysus legend.

Originally posted by Ikku
Christianity often tries to cover its ass by saying "three in one is the only way to describe Him, who goes beyond our finite minds. It is a mystery." Yeah, sounds like an excuse to me.

Why would you say that people who say that they are monotheists are really polythiests? I mean, they aren't lying to cover it up. They understand the triune godhead to be monotheism,

Religion always falls back on "It's a mystery."

Well, that is what religion is all about.

That fails to explain how they can claim to be monotheists yet have three supreme gods,

Christians don't have three supreme gods, they have a singular godhead that has these other aspects to it. This, in fact, is part of what lead to the Great Schism in the early church, into orthodox and Catholic, and several heresies popped up because of it. People debated whether or not jesus had a human aspect or only a god like nature or any number of variations on it. In the end, christians beleive in one god, an that one god has three different aspects for them.

a god of the underworld (not worshipped, but believed in),

The 'devil' is no a god tho. Its just a thing.

the mother of God, and tons of saints.

Mary and the saints are not however worshipped as gods. They're venerated, respected, and appealed to, but then again people venerate respect and appeal to other human beings. They still only 'worship' one supreme god.

the independant architect said:
direct rip off of the Dionysus legend

The dying and resurecting god is actually older and more widespread than dionysos. Amoung the sumerians/bablyonians, Inanna journeys to the underworld, where she is judged and punished, hung on a pole (similiar to crucifixtion) and dies there, then becomes resurrected and leaves the underworld freeing the souls of people there. The christian parallels are very strong there. It seems to be a 'world myth' of a sort.

Also, on the pagan influences, the direct ones at least, are the saints. Its beyond sensible to cliam that the saints were patrons of such and such aspect of life and had shrines on the sites of former temples of pagan gods that had those same aspects merely out of coincidence. But nevertheless that hardly makes avowed monotheists polytheists, anymore than it makes monotheists atheists for rejecting all the other gods.

I am so sick of these stupid pagan posts. There is no paganism. Not one ounce.

Well some of it is true. Not a lot of what the author has claimed, however, some churches have embrased pagan traditions. You have to remember, you can never get a perfect 'religion' on earth. It doesn't exist. Man is too corrupt. You can worship a perfect God, but the reality is, any organisation that you belong to will have imperfections. Be it pagan or relatively new new age beliefs.

It isnt easy to see how 95% of Christians are blantantly practicing pagan beliefs by worshipping on Sunday. You think the catholic church doesnt have supreme power? Nearly every christian church on earth bows down to it by worshipping on 'its' day. They even say it themselves!

The catholic form of Christianity is full of pagan references, chiefly the worship of saints. Think about it. Intead of pagan gods for the harvest, fertility, etc. there are now saints with their little candles burning in all the catholic churches for the same things.

It actually makes sense that this would happen. The early leaders of the church hav shown themselves to be pretty pragmatic people. In the years right after Christ died, most people were pagans. Getting them to convert to a monotheistic religion would be much easier if you also gave them something like they were used to worshiping - the saints - in place of their old 'gods'.

[edit on 12/16/2004 by centurion1211]

There's a healthy dose of paganism in the early catholic church, like the festival of Saturnalia is Christmas and the festival of Eostre is Easter, the many statues of the saints and the doctrine of intercession is suggests the worship of graven images...

The Knights Templar refused to worship an effigy of Christ on the cross because the believed it was symbolic of the power of Rome and that Jesus didn't die on the cross anyhow...

Personally I have problems with the veneration of the cross, it's like mourning the death of JFK by praying to Lee Harvey Oswalds rifle, or mourning the death of Elvis by eating deep fried peanut butter and jelly sandwiches...

I am far more comfortable with the fish as a symbol of Christianity...

Originally posted by centurion1211
The catholic form of Christianity is full of pagan references, chiefly the worship of saints. Think about it. Intead of pagan gods for the harvest, fertility, etc. there are now saints with their little candles burning in all the catholic churches for the same things.

It actually makes sense that this would happen. The early leaders of the church hav shown themselves to be pretty pragmatic people. In the years right after Christ died, most people were pagans. Getting them to convert to a monotheistic religion would be much easier if you also gave them something like they were used to worshiping - the saints - in place of their old 'gods'.

[edit on 12/16/2004 by centurion1211]

We dont worship saints we honer them. We honer them because God gave them the power to perform miracles.

Why bother fixing religious senses in people's brain? Read and get over it.

Originally posted by Croat56

Originally posted by centurion1211
The catholic form of Christianity is full of pagan references, chiefly the worship of saints. Think about it. Intead of pagan gods for the harvest, fertility, etc. there are now saints with their little candles burning in all the catholic churches for the same things.

It actually makes sense that this would happen. The early leaders of the church hav shown themselves to be pretty pragmatic people. In the years right after Christ died, most people were pagans. Getting them to convert to a monotheistic religion would be much easier if you also gave them something like they were used to worshiping - the saints - in place of their old 'gods'.

[edit on 12/16/2004 by centurion1211]

We dont worship saints we honer them. We honer them because God gave them the power to perform miracles.

Saint Jude - Patraint saint of lost causes. Typical prayer - Dear Saint Jude, can you help me out in my times of trouble. da da da

Veneration? Doubtful, Praying to a dead person yes. Worship or no worship the Bible indicates we should pray to God.

Originally posted by Croat56
I am so sick of these stupid pagan posts. There is no paganism. Not one ounce.

Well I'll agree if you mean that modern christians aren't pagans. I mean thats obviously not the case. But lets not pretend that there weren't influences from other religions on early christianity or that there wasn't a co-opting of 'pagan' religious ritual, beleifs, and even holy places by christianity.

[quote]centurion1211
Getting them to convert to a monotheistic religion would be much easier if you also gave them something like they were used to worshiping - the saints - in place of their old 'gods'.
Something vaguely like that undoubetdly happened, but as for it beinga concious and conspiratorial move, I think that'd be a different story and a much more unlikely one.

flange gasket
There's a healthy dose of paganism in the early catholic church

Not for nothing but catholics are hardly the only ones to have saints or churches on pagan holy sites, and the jesus 'myth/mythos/story/history', whatever you want to call it, that is loaded with paganistic traditions. The death, crucifixtion, resurrection, the communion, even the eucharist itself, the sojurn into the wilderness, temptation, betrayal, its all there, and itall was thoroughly established in paganistic religions and cults. Just as the early christian community adopted paganistic temples and terminology, they also co-opted their myths and incorporated them into their own.

croat66
We dont worship saints we honer them

I find it wildly amusing that non-catholics will insist to catholics that they worship saints as if they were god and worship idols because the statues in their churches.

Originally posted by Croat56
We dont worship saints we honer them. We honer them because God gave them the power to perform miracles.

I think it might be that aCatholics honr the saints because they led good and holy lives, in spite of many obstacles.
Not just because God "gave" them power to perform miracles.

Here's an interesting paper on Christian Feast Days and Their Relationship to Pagan Holidays
To pique your interest:

In the early Christian Church, the birth of Christ was not celebrated. During the first three hundred years of the religion the Church in Rome discouraged such a celebration, concerned that it would appear to be more like a Pagan ritual, than a Christian holiday. As church officials attempted to convert Romans to Christianity, many of the residents continued to celebrate a major winter holiday, "Saturnalia", which was a celebration that lasted a week, which celebrated the Birth of the Unconquerable Sun.

I think it might be that aCatholics honr the saints because they led good and holy lives, in spite of many obstacles.
Not just because God "gave" them power to perform miracles.

To become a saint you have to have performed 2 miracles. So yes God did give them the power to perform rituals

The death, crucifixtion, resurrection, the communion, even the eucharist itself, the sojurn into the wilderness, temptation, betrayal, its all there, and itall was thoroughly established in paganistic religions and cults.

Why would jews, who rejected all all pagan traditions (including the romans) suddenly want to invent a story about a Christ? They were the most conservative bunch that stuck to the tradition of the old testiment (and still do).

The fact of the matter was that the testimony of Christ was spreading at such a rate, that the Romans were scared they could not control it. It didnt matter how many christians they killed, they kept believing in this Christ.

So they decided to make an appearance of joining them while still maintain many of the existing belief structures of the Romans of that time.

Was the story of Jesus Pagan? Of course not. Have organisations attempted to corrupt it over the years for political / power reasons, of course.

I think it might be that aCatholics honr the saints because they led good and holy lives, in spite of many obstacles. Not just because God "gave" them power to perform miracles.

There are many people that live good (but not perfect) lives. Why arent they made saints? Not all saints performed miracles (unless you are referring to the miracle of mustard gass)

I find it wildly amusing that non-catholics will insist to catholics that they worship saints as if they were god and worship idols because the statues in their churches.

yeah? why is that?

Originally posted by Croat56
To become a saint you have to have performed 2 miracles. So yes God did give them the power to perform rituals

But, that is not why Catholics honor them.
They were people who led exemplary lives. Catholics look up to them and honor them. They are honored and respected for what they did on earth!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, the Church must have proof of two miracle to canonize a saint, but that is not the only requirement. They also led a "saintly" life in the eyes of the Church.

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe

Originally posted by Croat56
To become a saint you have to have performed 2 miracles. So yes God did give them the power to perform rituals

But, that is not why Catholics honor them.
They were people who led exemplary lives. Catholics look up to them and honor them. They are honored and respected for what they did on earth!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, the Church must have proof of two miracle to canonize a saint, but that is not the only requirement. They also led a "saintly" life in the eyes of the Church.

Well duh if they performed miracles they had to have led good lives or else God wouldnt have chosen them.

Originally posted by Croat56

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe

Originally posted by Croat56
To become a saint you have to have performed 2 miracles. So yes God did give them the power to perform rituals

But, that is not why Catholics honor them.
They were people who led exemplary lives. Catholics look up to them and honor them. They are honored and respected for what they did on earth!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, the Church must have proof of two miracle to canonize a saint, but that is not the only requirement. They also led a "saintly" life in the eyes of the Church.

Well duh if they performed miracles they had to have led good lives or else God wouldnt have chosen them.

Firstly, How do you determine what a miracle is?
Secondly, how do you know it was God that let them do these amazing things? I know witch doctors have some amazing powers. (not to mention helping the local villages) Can they to become a saint?

And a saint that can perform miracles for harvests, weather, etc. is different from a god or goddess doing the same thing exactly how

Wait, didn't the Romans also makes gods and goddesses out of their dead rulers? And that's different from how someone becomes a saint exactly how

It was all happening about the same time, too

My point is that it is very clear that the early catholic church borrowed much from the other religions of the day.


[edit on 12/16/2004 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by centurion1211
And a saint that can perform miracles for harvests, weather, etc. is different from a god or goddess doing the same thing exactly how

Wait, didn't the Romans also makes gods and goddesses out of their dead rulers? And that's different form how someone becomes a saint exactly how

It was all happening abut the same time, too

Its not a harvest or weather thing. Man some of you guys know nothing. Theyre saints not gods. Saints are not our rulers. A good example of a miracle is stigmata. For those who dont know what stigmata is: it is when a person recieves the wounds of Jesus. Wholes in their legs, wrists, and stab wound to their side. Its a miracle because these things cannot be explained by science and never become infectiouse. Some constantly bleed,other stop and then start again. Now if any1 out there is thinking that these people just cut theirselves then your wrong because there have been people in a coma that did not have stigmata befor they lapsed into it.