Killers of UK soldier Lee Rigby sentenced

reply to post by crazyewok


Can someone be a martyr in their own eyes?
That seems nonsensical to the original definition if the word!

Secondly my point was to people saying it in reference to Islam not themselves!
Also I'm pretty sure if they still feel no remorse for what get did they will smile till the day they die anyways!

However I'm sure if put to death their smile would disappear quite quickly.
Especially if they knew that this imaginary martyrdom was only viewed by themselves!

Peace.

reply to post by CharlieSpeirs


Do you really think there wouldn't be other Muslims who would view their deaths as martyrdom if they were executed?

reply to post by crazyewok


Yes sir that fully determines every single fact in the case, including MI5 surveillance that failed to stop such an attack, and the fact that they just so happened to know he was a soldier!!!
You cleared up everything that the public have been wondering!!!

How silly of me to consider that their actions in the aftermath doesn't apply to regular people instead of those who suffer from "insanity"...

Because it's totally normal and rational to sit around making videos of such an attack isn't it!!!
That happen every day doesn't it!!!
To wonder if they were "compos mentis" is unrealistic because every murder case to ever happen has had such characteristics haven't they!!!
To think they may have been "insane" is just plucking nonsense out of thin air with no statistics to back this up!!!


Peace.

reply to post by khimbar


Do you mean everyday Muslims who abide by the Quran?

Or extremists who claim to do things in the name of Islam?

Because there is a massive difference pal!

And one of them is falsified and has no place within the religion!

*Hint* it's not abiding by the Quran!

Peace.

reply to post by CharlieSpeirs


Either.

So you do think they'd be seen as martyrs by other Muslims?

reply to post by khimbar


"Do you really think there wouldn't be other Muslims who would view their deaths as martyrdom if they were executed?"

I think there would indeed be a small minority of people of the Muslim persuasion that would view their execution as martyrdom. Thats exactly what the religious fanatics desire on both sides.

reply to post by khimbar


Simply put...seeing as my reply wasn't an answer in your books... No they wouldn't be a martyr to no Muslim.
They are sinners in the eyes of Allah, they murdered an innocent man in cold blood, there is no Islamic martyrdom involved whatsoever. Any Muslims who disagree would actually be disobeying Allah, in which case they'd hardly be considered Muslims!
Would they be martyrs in the eyes of psychopaths... Probably yes!!!


Peace.

I feel this is off topic anyways...
Justice was done apparently, taking the claim of insanity away is the only downfall regarding the case itself, in my personal opinion.

Peace.

CharlieSpeirs
reply to post by crazyewok

 

Yes sir that fully determines every single fact in the case, including MI5 surveillance that failed to stop such an attack, and the fact that they just so happened to know he was a soldier!!!
You cleared up everything that the public have been wondering!!!

How silly of me to consider that their actions in the aftermath doesn't apply to regular people instead of those who suffer from "insanity"...

Because it's totally normal and rational to sit around making videos of such an attack isn't it!!!
That happen every day doesn't it!!!
To wonder if they were "compos mentis" is unrealistic because every murder case to ever happen has had such characteristics haven't they!!!
To think they may have been "insane" is just plucking nonsense out of thin air with no statistics to back this up!!!


Peace.

BS complete BS

They knew exactly what they were doing.

It was not some insane rampage done by someone at the time didn’t know the difference between right and wrong.
It was planned it was thought out and it was executed with precision. And there was two of them.

This was some lone schizophrenic on a hallucinogenic rampage.
It was premeditated murder.

As for MI5 failings that irrelevant to the criminal case and deserves to be brought out in separate inquiry. If there was negligence ? Well who ever was responsible needs to be charged. But as for the two POS well they still murderd someone and life in prison is the right call. They certainly shouldnt be let off or given a more lenient sentance cause MI5 failed to stop them!

CharlieSpeirs


Can someone be a martyr in their own eyes?
That seems nonsensical to the original definition if the word!

Them and the eyes or other extremists. Not all musliems but extremists.
No to us they are not martyrs but they honestly believe that and so do other groups who are in the extremists range of things.

I doubt that will be smiling after the first few years when they know all they have to look forward to is the inside of a cell and the abuse of fellow prisoners and likely the guards too.

But putting them to death would be what they would of wanted.

reply to post by crazyewok


I wouldn't disagree with you completely pal.

But you are limiting "insane" to "lone schizophrenic on a hallucinogenic rampage"... Which is not fair to be honest!
I have undifferentiated schizophrenia, the most unpredictable type, and I can definitely determine right from wrong, nor have I even been on hallucinogenic rampages!!!

A quick look at this case shows clear mental instability, whether they knew right or wrong is irrelevant completely!

You also misunderstand my stance for wanting lenience, far from it, they did it, they get punished should be the bottom line...

But I don't think any negligence if proven is irrelevant to the case if in consideration it could have all been prevented.


Also Hitler knew what he was doing, and that was wholly premeditated, but he was clearly insane!

Peace.

reply to post by crazyewok


You are correct.
I just get very annoyed when people associate extremism with Islam, it's oxy-moronical!!!

You may also be right that they won't be smiling in a few years, I can't disagree at all sir.

Peace.

CharlieSpeirs
reply to post by crazyewok

 

I wouldn't disagree with you completely pal.

But you are limiting "insane" to "lone schizophrenic on a hallucinogenic rampage"... Which is not fair to be honest!
I have undifferentiated schizophrenia, the most unpredictable type, and I can definitely determine right from wrong, nor have I even been on hallucinogenic rampages!!!

I recognise that most schizophrenic are not a danger at most know right and wrong. Dont worry mate

CharlieSpeirs
A quick look at this case shows clear mental instability, whether they knew right or wrong is irrelevant completely!

In the current legal system it does though. To be declared unfit to stand trial for ones actions and be permanently sectioned in a place like Broadmoor you need to show that they really were unaware of the consequences of there action or prove they had a compulsive disorder they had no chance of controlling. And its pretty easy to spot as I’m sure before the trial they were given full phyc evaluations, the fact the defence didn’t even try and go much for it shows they like got a clean bill.

CharlieSpeirs
But I don't think any negligence if proven is irrelevant to the case if in consideration it could have all been prevented.

Yes and no.

The fact that MI5 may have screwed up has no bearing on their roles in the murder. In their court case it doesn’t have much bearing as unless MI5 or the police tampered with evidence as the fact is they still killed someone. What MI5 did or didn’t do to stop them is unrelated to them in regards to criminal responsibility.

BUT

If the security services were negligence what that means is in theory some blame can be placed on them to. his means a separate inquiry should be done with those responsible either being charged with criminal negligence or manslaughter OR have civil suite filled against them

But MI5 failing have no bearing on the guilt or criminal reasonability of the two people in question.

CharlieSpeirs
Also Hitler knew what he was doing, and that was wholly premeditated, but he was clearly insane!

Peace.

Exactly and he would have been tried and executed in a court of law at the time. Being insane under most western laws doesn’t necessarily free you of criminal responsibility.

reply to post by crazyewok


I appreciate that. Didn't want to sound like an almighty jerk either I apologise if it had a sense of know-it-all-ness as I do understand some schizophrenics are clearly detached from reality.
I jumped to a conclusion and apologise for getting ahead of myself.


I guess I was a little vague in my perceptions...
My point is does it seem like a sound mind would hang about to record and transcript such a heinous crime!!!
To me that would be a clear case of some sort of mental health lapse, whether drastic or not should still be considered.
I agree fully they would have been evaluated and if the defense didn't feel it necessary to fight for diminished responsibility then chances are I am 100% wrong... but maybe a failed attemp at such a plea would have resulted in a much longer sentence much like a failed "not guilty" plea would!

Again I fully agree that they should face responsibility for this whether MI5 were involved or not!!!
Unless it were a false flag manchurian moment, but it's hard to bring that to a court without being laughed out despite the possibility!!!

If it wasnt(my beliefs it wasn't that) then of course they should face the most severe punishment available either way, so I completely agree, it was not an attempt to deflect an amount of responsibility toward the SS...


Again I feel they are criminally responsible, even the one I deem to be criminally insane, I am saying it would be right and just to announce this, not to bring lenience however... merely as a moral stance point that if he wasn't as brainwashed as he came across, it'd be easier to judge him as evil... right now I feel he has misjudged the situation and reacted out of all control of normal brain function!
He should still get life, but maybe shouldn't be such a pariah for his actions.
It's the frenzy of the media circus, mob mentality that takes over that makes me so agitated towards most cases that involve terrorism!


Peace.

Yeah, it's the best justice there is. For a number of reasons.

Both have gone on record saying their only regret is police didn't kill them.

Jailing them for life means they'll have to live with what they've done, put up with prison treatment and won't get to become martyrs.

If even half the thing prison guards have told me they do to prisoner's food and 'random room inspections' are true, even if these extremists still maintain the backwards view what they did was just and will send them to paradise, they'll have consumed enough 'extra protein' to know they're going to hell.

Their whole reasoning for doing it was 'an eye for an eye' for British soldiers killing Muslim women and children - so giving them the death penalty is the only going to play into their hands.

The only way to stop people like this is to take the moral high ground and not stoop to their level - which is sadly something the 'war on terror' isn't achieving.

CharlieSpeirs
reply to post by crazyewok

 

I appreciate that. Didn't want to sound like an almighty jerk either I apologise if it had a sense of know-it-all-ness as I do understand some schizophrenics are clearly detached from reality.
I jumped to a conclusion and apologise for getting ahead of myself.

Again no worries.

CharlieSpeirs

I guess I was a little vague in my perceptions...
My point is does it seem like a sound mind would hang about to record and transcript such a heinous crime!!!

I think they were just 100% convinced and devoted to there cause. Why does a sucide bomber blow themselves up? Same twisted mind set and one I doubt you or me will ever understand.

CharlieSpeirs
To me that would be a clear case of some sort of mental health lapse, whether drastic or not should still be considered.
I agree fully they would have been evaluated and if the defense didn't feel it necessary to fight for diminished responsibility then chances are I am 100% wrong...

I was surpised the defence didnt try it to be honest as the defence only had that and the defence of being soldiers in a war to go with. So the fact they didnt must of meant there psychiatric came back pretty clean.

CharlieSpeirs
but maybe a failed attemp at such a plea would have resulted in a much longer sentence much like a failed "not guilty" plea would!

Well seeing as they got the maxmium sentence you can possibly get I dont know how they could have made it worse haha

CharlieSpeirs


It's the frenzy of the media circus, mob mentality that takes over that makes me so agitated towards most cases that involve terrorism!


Peace.

I feel you on this. The string em up brigade and vigilante attitudes get tireing.

reply to post by crazyewok


Goddess bless you.



Yes I have no doubts that they thought they were doing the right thing!!!
To bring it to the streets of Britain was quite an unparalleled case to judge as well, that's partly why I see there could have been mental health red flags IMO!
It's probably fair to say we'd have a better chance of understanding a suicide bomber at wits end compared to two gentlemen who just took out overseas problems on a man from their own nation.

Yes it's highly surprising they didn't you must be right about a clean bill making it impossible.
They probably didn't expect to get the maximum available though, but in hindsight it would have been pointless in any case.

Yes it's a shame such problems occur it distracts from healthy debate all round when people hop on a bandwagon!

People don't want them to be martyrs, don't make them a pariah either, or there cause is just as warranted!

Peace.

reply to post by andy06shake


They should just get life in the hole (solitary confinement), Papillon style!