Types of Universal Civilizations; Type 0, I, II, III, IV, V ... God?

page: 1
3
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join

posted on Nov, 23 2004 @ 12:42 PM
link   
A very cool theory about the possiable classifications of all the civilizations in the universe including ours.

en.wikipedia.org... (highly recommended)

The Kardashev scale is a general method of classifying how technologically advanced a civilization is, first proposed in 1964 by the Russian astronomer Nikolai Kardashev. It has three categories, based on the amount of usable energy a civilization has at its disposal and increasing logarithmically:

Type I - A civilization that is able to harness all of the power available on a single planet, approximately 10^16 W (given the Solar constant for Earth, this value for Earth exceeds 1.7410^17 W).
Type II - A civilization that is able to harness all of the power available from a single star, approximately 10^26 W (the Sun outputs appoximately 3.8610^26 W).
Type III - A civilization that is able to harness all of the power available from a single galaxy, approximately 10^36 W.
All such civilizations are purely hypothetical at this point. However, the Kardashev scale is of use to SETI researchers, science fiction authors, and futurists as a theoretical framework.

Human civilization is currently somewhere below Type I, as it is able to harness only a portion of the energy that is available on Earth. The current state of human civilization has been unofficially named Type 0. Although intermediate values were not discussed in Kardashev's original proposal, Carl Sagan attempted to extrapolate and calculated humanity's current civilization to be 0.7.

A possible contender for the advancement to a Type I civilization is to begin the heavy use of ocean thermal energy conversion, wind turbines and tidal power to obtain the energy received by Earth's oceans from the Sun. However there is no known way to successfully utilise the full potential of Earth's energy production without complete coating of the surface with man made structures. In the near and medium future, this is an impossibility given humans' current lifestyle.

A hypothetical Type II civilization might employ a Dyson sphere or other similar construct in order to utilize all of the energy output by a star, or perhaps more exotic means such as feeding stellar mass into a black hole to generate usable energy. A Type III civilization might use the same techniques employed by a Type II civilization, applied to all of the stars of a galaxy individually, or perhaps might use other mechanisms not yet proposed.

A common and recognisable example of a fictional civilization capable of entering a Type III level are Star Trek's Borg who utilise energy on a massive scale, being in between Type II and Type III. One of the proposed uses of such energy sources is star lifting, by which stars may be mined for raw materials.

Weakness by supposition?
It has been argued that, because we cannot understand advanced civilizations, we cannot predict their behavior; thus, Kardashev's visualization may not reflect what will actually occur for an advanced civilization. Theories like this are discussed at Carbon chauvinism. This central argument is found within the book Evolving the Alien: The Science of Extraterrestrial Life (A more controversial discussion can be found at Future Hi: Exotic Civilizations: Beyond Kardaschev (www.futurehi.net...).

It is also possible that the unique conditions on Earth allow for specific technologies to develop which would take many times longer for a Civilization not having these conditions to achieve. The list of presumably unique conditions on Earth, and of related discoveries, is quite long. Some examples:

The Hall-Heroult process and the Bayer process, if not discovered in the late 19th Century, might have lead to a delay in the creation of Aluminium dependent technologies, such as Aircraft and Rocketry.
The Moon produces tides, and offers some protection from asteroids, comets, and radiation.
Many discoveries were essentially accidental, such as the discovery of Penicillin, or the laser.
It is possible that the conditions for the creation of hydrocarbons, coal, or natural gas would not exist on other planets. These fuels were essential for us to move past dependence upon wood and animal based energy systems. Although waterwheel, wind, and solar energy technologies existed, they were not developed further until suitable industrial techniques were found to produce better materials. These techniques consume massive amounts of energy, and therefore could not be powered by the unimproved technologies. A similar argument could be made that without fossil fuel technologies, more powerful technologies, such as nuclear reactors, could not develop.

Counter-argument: abundance of alternative sources
Human perception has a natural bias towards the known energy development paths of Human civilization. It must also be noted that during both the 1973 energy crisis and the 1979 energy crisis highly industrialized societies continued to function; many moved towards developing alternative energy technologies on a massive scale under the assumption that these could provide the energy needed to continue industrial and commercial processes should fossil fuel supplies be compromised in some critical way.

Given this development, it is possible that a society could develop without a stage where fossil fuel based energy production occurs. This version of Buckminster Fuller's argument on Current solar income conforms with Paul Hawken's idea of restorative economy, stating that fossil fuel based energy production is not essential nor desirable given the effects and alternatives. Also, it must be noted that the principles behind the fuel cell were discovered by Christian Friedrich Schnbein in 1838, and were applied by Sir William Grove in 1843, before there was widespread usage of fossil fuels other than coal. This raises the possibility that for alien civilizations fuel cells could be used in place of hydrocarbon fuels. It was only in the 1850s that the first industrial petroleum extraction was started by Edwin Drake.

Civilization implications:

Possible Kardashev Scale Expansion of Human Civilization from Long Term History (www.darkage.fsnet.co.uk...) Given the fact that there must be a transition between civilization periods for each level, social upheval can be prevalent in transition, especially with the Type 0 to Type I transition, where it is speculated given current conditions on this planet, that self-destruction is highly likely. Many individuals have pointed to the faster upheval of civilization periods as indicative of an upcoming change over to Type I civilization. It is notable, if the numbers given under Current Values are accurate, that we are accelerating towards the eventual Type 0/ Type I transition. Further discussion of this can be read at Long Term History(www.darkage.fsnet.co.uk...), though the factual accuracy of this souce must be taken lightly.

Contact constraints:
For pre-Type I civilizations, it is costly to attempt contact with other more advanced civilizations because of the energy output needed. It has been predicted that in order to provide a reliable contact beacon of sufficient power to be noticable to a Type II civilization, it must output such high energy levels that the cost between $1 trillion to $10 trillion in energy. The latter figure is the approximate GDP of the United States at the end of the 1990s through the beginning of the 21st Century. Further discussion can be found at Interstellar Probes: A New Approach to SETI (www.rfreitas.com...); the consensus is that civilization must advance high into Type I before the energy required for reliable contact with other civilizations becomes sufficiently low that it does not drain a civilization's economic resources.

Hypothetical extensions
The exponential structure of the scale allows ready extrapolation to higher types. For example:

Type IV: control of the energy output of a galactic supercluster; approximately 10^46W.
Type V: energy control over the entire universe; approximately 10^56W. Such a civilization approaches or surpasses the limits of speculation based on current scientific understanding, and may not be possible. Frank J. Tipler's Omega point would presumably occupy this level.

Fictional extensions
These extensions are mainly used in science fiction. They are not "official" and may differ from source to source. For example, some authors would class a "Type V" civilization as Type IV instead. Further examples of extensions of the scale follow:

Type VI: Energy control over multiple universes; a power level that is technically infinite
The civilization may have gained the ability to alter physical laws across multiple universes
These civilizations can escape a dying universe, and thereby become eternal; it is possible that less advanced civilizations can do so as well.
Type VII: Hypothetical status of a deity, able to create universes at will, using them as an energy source
It is interesting and important to note that as of yet, no science fiction literature characterizes beings with energy usages in the range of Type VII. Type VII though is well beyond the stage of understanding that humans can incur beyond a technological singularity.
Futher discussion can be read at Just My Type: Kardashev Civilizations in SF and Beyond (www.suite101.com...)

Hypothetical futures
Science fiction, having extended these values has also provided guides for possible future changes associated with the fractionalized version of the Kardashev scale. A possible one is presented here:

Type 0 No Civilization

0.01 Discovery of Fire
0.1 Stone tools
0.5 Industrial Revolution
0.6 19th century - 20th century technological expansion
0.7 Nuclear Weapons and Fission power
0.8 Late 20th Century, Early 21st Century
0.9 Fusion power, Space elevators
0.95 up to Type I Technological Breakpoint, with either civilization destruction or survival
Type I Single Planetary Civilization

I.1-I.2 near space industry and colonization
I.3 Asteroid mining
I.4 Planet Mining for fuels and energy
I.5 First Interstellar travel
I.6 Culture Orbital
I.7 Ringworld
I.8 Construction begins on Dyson Sphere or Alderson disk
Type II Civilization extends to the entire Solar System

II.0 Dyson Sphere completion
II.1-II.2 creation of the nearest star colony
II.4 star lifting
II.5 Colonization of the nearest 100 stars
II.6 Star Trek type civilization (debatable)
Type III Colonization of the Milky Way Galaxy

III.2 Star Wars type civilization (debatable)
III.5 Ability to survive the end of the Universe.
Type IV Colonization of the Local Group

Type V Colonization of Futher Galaxies and the Cluster surrounding the Local Group, including the Visible universe.

************************************************************************************************************************
Hummm i was wondering about the type I civilization... it kind of sounds like the unification of the whole planet... possiably a world government (the UN?), and single spoken/written language (english?), a unifed form of planetery comunication (internet) and the ability of the race to survive any natural disaster? Anyone else got a take on what would be needed for Earth to become a type I civilization beside the power factor???... like the social, political,enviromental and other implications?

[edit on 23-11-2004 by beyondSciFi]




posted on Nov, 23 2004 @ 01:49 PM
link   

Originally posted by beyondSciFi
Hummm i was wondering bout the type I civilization... it kinda sounds like the unification of the whole planet... possiably a world government (the UN?), and single spoken/written language (english?), a unifed form of planetery comunication (internet) and the ability of the race to survive any natural disaster? Anyone else got a take on what would be needed for Earth to become a type I civilization beside the power factor???... like the social, political,enviromental and other implications?


Interesting...very interesting indeed


We need the unification of the planet to reach a future like ...eg Star Trek or many other theoritical futures.
As earth currently stands we're not going to reach total global unity for a very long time unless something like WW3 or a global natural disater (asteroid) happens.



posted on Nov, 23 2004 @ 06:51 PM
link   

Originally posted by beyondSciFi Type VII: Hypothetical status of a deity, able to create universes at will, using them as an energy source. It is interesting and important to note that as of yet, no science fiction literature characterizes beings with energy usages in the range of Type VII. Type VII though is well beyond the stage of understanding that humans can incur beyond a technological singularity.


Also... this alone would inply that a civilization advanced enough could create a universe and make it so that they would have absolute control over it, sound like anyone you know? Maybe we should stop thinking small.... there is much we still need to learn...

[edit on 27-11-2004 by beyondSciFi]



posted on Nov, 23 2004 @ 07:19 PM
link   
This is the most interesting post I have ever read on ATS. The thing that gets me about it is its from a fairly new member.
GREAT JOB BSF

Everything presented seems to fit and make complete sense. I like how you have alluded to God being a type VII civ. It makes me wish I hadnt been born for another 300 years! I would love to be around then just to see what we would be like. Agian, good job, and you deserve the way above I am about to give you


Edit:
You have voted beyondSciFi for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month.


You even got my last vote.

[edit on 11/23/04 by Kidfinger]



posted on Nov, 23 2004 @ 07:35 PM
link   
WOW thanks a lot for the vote. I love this site, i actually been here for a year or so but i just joined in July. I just try to post stuff people would find interesting and that make sense. I'd love to hear what you guys think about this.


[edit on 23-11-2004 by beyondSciFi]



posted on Nov, 24 2004 @ 05:30 AM
link   

Originally posted by beyondSciFi
WOW thanks a lot for the vote. I love this site, i actually been here for a year or so but i just joined in July. I just try to post stuff people would find interesting and that make sense. I'd love to hear what you guys think about this.



Its interesting about the god concept being a super advanced civilation


The odds of a species reaching the highest level is proberly a trillion, trillion, trillion etc to one. The powers these species could control could very easily destroy themsleves if the power was abused or not shielded correctly.

Someone said about sci-fi writers not writing about the highest level species, this is proberly because it would make the story line seem pointless compared to the power of the super species.

Also...the age of the species must be countlessly ancient if they ever gained such power and knowledge.



posted on Nov, 24 2004 @ 09:24 AM
link   
awesome piece of work you wrote there i learned alot of from that great stuff. Thanks again.



posted on Nov, 24 2004 @ 11:22 AM
link   
Beyond, this is a GREAT post, but I only saw one reference to how Evolution might play into Catagory-to-Catagory advancment. I'm no brain thrust, but I'll bet we follow one of two courses. Either we advance technologcally to the point where Evolution ceases, and over the course of a few epoch, our DNA falls apart...OR...we take up the banner and determine OUR OWN Evolution.

How about evolving our species to the point where all of our power needs are supplied by each or us as individuals with near-zero time, effort, or expense? How about a one-world mind, as opposed to a one-world language?

What ever becomes the case, our future is a still a cake with a LOT of ingredients, and Biology is as much a part as Technology.



posted on Nov, 24 2004 @ 11:47 AM
link   

Originally posted by Toelint
How about evolving our species to the point where all of our power needs are supplied by each or us as individuals with near-zero time, effort, or expense? How about a one-world mind, as opposed to a one-world language?


Thats why i thought that a super-advanced civilization could be thought of as God by less evolved beings. I dont know how they got there but it was probably a long road...



posted on Nov, 24 2004 @ 11:50 AM
link   

[Type VI: Energy control over multiple universes; a power level that is technically infinite
The civilization may have gained the ability to alter physical laws across multiple universes
These civilizations can escape a dying universe, and thereby become eternal; it is possible that less advanced civilizations can do so as well.


Yea...I've read that this type is really here watching us in the "anti-matter" they want to save us from the greys and the NWO....

First contact, officially, is imminent. This means that we are busy preparing our fleet for its various first open appearances in your skies. These sightings will be your first notice that we are here. Another concerns the numerous broadcasts we intend to produce in the coming days. As noted earlier, our first reporters will be liaisons chosen from several primarily human off-world galactic societies. These individuals have been prepared to give a detailed true history of your world and of this first contact mission. In addition, we intend to land in a number of designated spots. Throughout Latin America, in the past decade, we have prepared for this mission. We have discovered some of your lingering fears and also witnessed your great Love. Out of this, we have formed a special team designed to reveal your coming future to you in the most familiar way. This operation will end, once and for all, the cover-up of our existence. It will show our benevolence and open you to galactic citizenship.

www.luisprada.com...



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 10:07 PM
link   
I would assume that anything beyond a type2 civilization would have a competely unified mind structure. Like the example of the Borg from the Star Trek series. I mean its the only way to possibly advance any further than that. Individual thought has far too many conflicts and errors. With unified thinking you can calculate so many times faster by using all the brain power on individual tasks. However the physical tasks will still be done individually.

Example:
Building a space station. Lets say we have 1000 units working together to build a space station. How much faster and more efficient can it be done with a unified thought process as opposed to individual thought. Individual thinking will result in opposing views, delayed functioning and tasks being performed differently which can lead to malfunctions in equipment. With unified thought everything is calculated and pre determined to be done in the best way possible.
I believe that once this unified thought porcess is achieved, you bascially have a single entity with millions of outlets. Its like having 10 million arms that can reach anywhere at any time do whatever is necessary. Maye this is essentialy what God is?



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 10:40 PM
link   
i will continue reading tomorow...

good so far...





posted on Nov, 27 2004 @ 01:52 AM
link   
.
An interesting topic.

I do have some questions, all the potential energy of a planet could be interpreted to mean converting an entire planet to energy via anti-matter or something. I assume by the solar constant that means all the energy falling on the surface of the planet from the Sun?

Also in your/the(?) III.5. stage it says the ability to survive the end of the Universe, which seems far too early on the scale. This seems to me to be far beyond colonizing the local group etc. It implies the ability to either keep matter or energy structures going after the Universe is gone, which sounds close to the ability to traverse to other Universes or create new Universes or sub/proto Universes.

I think as we go out into space and leave the friction, gravity & matter rich environment we have evolved in economy of action is going to be VERY important. In other words precise and accurate forethought of action is going to be of paramount importance. Unlike here on this planet's surface where rash poorly thought out actions can still be highly rewarding, at least on the short term from an individual perspective.

Like burning all your rocket fuel going on a joy ride, you, without a rescue [which is very materially expensive], end up going on forever into deep space. Running out of oxygen and/or slowly freezing to death.

I do wonder if 100s or 1000s miles long super-strong polymers will ever come into play. Like spiderman in outer space. Shoot a line to an asteroid and haul yourself in. The cobwebs of space.

.



posted on Nov, 27 2004 @ 02:12 AM
link   
.
In terms of becoming God like:

The more advanced civilizations become, in general the less Gods they seem to have. Many more advanced cultures are now mono-theistic.

Taking that one step further the most advanced would be Zero Gods. [Athiest]

If you start imagining infinite Universes it should impress one with just how insignificant one is. Just think about how terrifyingly HUGE this one single Universe is. We are 93 million miles from the Sun and 4.3 light YEARS to the nearest star(s). The gulfs between groups of galaxies are so large they could easily make one feel ill.

Short take - Reality is vast/infinite beyond imagining, we are less than a single photon by comparison.

So the people/beings with seemingly God-like powers are probably the ones that realize just how laughably insignificant they really are.

[I hope this doesn't get too heavy]
Also think about inifinite dimensions, there must be all kinds of Universes out there. Of one or two or three, . . . , seven etc dimensions. tiny Universes thay might be a mile in diameter maybe only feet or smaller. Universes with all kinds of physics. Perhaps even Universes with more than one time vector [not sure how that would work]. Or still-born universes that are beautiful and pristine but frozen without the movement of time. Or simply Universes with different relative times to ours that seem to us to zip by or almost be unchanging. There might be oscillating Universes that ebe and flow on a daily basis.

Don't want to be a kill-joy, but do want to impress caution. Like Dorothy in the Wizard of OZ perhaps it is important to keep in mind what you do have before you too rashly start changing or damaging what you/we do have.

(God i sound old don't i)

The Universe seems pretty solid, so I guess I say have fun. But if you do get too crazy it could be at your own risk.
.



posted on Nov, 27 2004 @ 12:29 PM
link   
The Kardashev scale is based completely on the power output of a civilization so I've been thinking maybe since he did make his theory in the early 1960s maybe he thought that according to the laws of thermodynamics that no power generator can come close to or exceed 100% efficiency. That would be his basis for making types civilizations limited to the power available from a planet, star, galaxy and so on. This would make complete sense in the 1960s BUT... a lot of talk has be going around about free energy generator systems (more then 100% efficient) and the possibility of them being able to be constructed. (I'm sure the black government has some locked up next to the warp drive and other cool gadgets) This would mean that a not so advanced race, say around type I, could have as much power as a much higher civilization, say type III, on The Kardashev scale. All they would need to do is build enough free energy generatorsm, given enough resources. So according to my theory, maybe the Kardashev scale might need some changes... but then again what do i know....

DYepes: Althought I agree with you that things might be done faster and better under the unfied mind of a whole race... I personaly wouldn't like that, as my whole individuality would be gone. Wheres then fun in living then? Maybe some races might feel the same and chose not to have a hive mind. Hummm you never know...

[edit on 27-11-2004 by beyondSciFi]



posted on Nov, 27 2004 @ 02:48 PM
link   
Well I am thinking that whenever the unification of a collective mind occurs, the idea of individuality becomes irrelevant because they are now thinking as one being instead of millions/billions/trillions of individuals. Would it happen forcefully though or initially be a voluntary moment. Maybe it will being voluntarily and end up forcefully done. My point is that you would not feel unhappy about your lack of individuality because your thoughts would be as the thoughts of the rest of your civilization, and thus be the thoughts of one being.

Hope that was understandable. Of course that very idea is probably not easily understood at our current level of evolution I suppose


E_T

posted on Nov, 27 2004 @ 03:59 PM
link   

Originally posted by beyondSciFi
Hummm i was wondering about the type I civilization... it kind of sounds like the unification of the whole planet... possiably a world government (the UN?), and single spoken/written language (english?), a unifed form of planetery comunication (internet) and the ability of the race to survive any natural disaster? Anyone else got a take on what would be needed for Earth to become a type I civilization beside the power factor???...
Ability to deflect incoming "planet killers" maybe.
Althought it's very unpropable we'll find some asteroid or comet capable inflicting global extinction in collision course even in thousand year it can't be discarded completely.



posted on Nov, 27 2004 @ 04:21 PM
link   
We do have the ability to detect big enough incoming asteroids and comets, its just that there are not enought people scaning the skys to find all of them... and that won't change unless the gov't puts more money in the search program. Its sad, i heard the budget is only a couple of million a year.



posted on Nov, 27 2004 @ 04:23 PM
link   
Interesting thread. I wonder if "God" could be considered as a step in evolution as welll as a technological advancement; I also wonder which would come first. Reminds me of the Jedis in Star Wars. I just hope as we evolve technologically, we don't forget to evolve spiritually.


E_T

posted on Nov, 27 2004 @ 04:32 PM
link   

Originally posted by DYepes
Well I am thinking that whenever the unification of a collective mind occurs, the idea of individuality becomes irrelevant because they are now thinking as one being instead individuals.
My point is that you would not feel unhappy about your lack of individuality because your thoughts would be as the thoughts of the rest of your civilization, and thus be the thoughts of one being.

Hope that was understandable. Of course that very idea is probably not easily understood at our current level of evolution I suppose
Or would individual thinking and acting be allowed if you had the ability for it.
Kind a like Vorlons in Babylon 5... "There is only order and obedience. You will do as you are told."

Well... of course there are governments already trying to supress individual thinking and acting, like Dubya using his holy war against terrorism to brainwash everyone to do/think as he tells as good example.





new topics
top topics
 
3
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join