Source: Ukrainian authorities are ready to use army to subdue pro-Russian

all2human
reply to post by crazyewok

 

All they need do is shoot on there own sympathiser's then we get Georgia x2x2000

edit on 25-2-2014 by all2human because: (no reason given)

It has the potential to turn into some bloody and nasty.

I hope if or more likely when russia go in the EU stays content with wordsand doesnt decide to have a old fashioned european gang bang.

stumason
reply to post by 13th Zodiac

 

You're entire post was centred around the "large, Russian" support and the opening comment was "90% speak Russian" - the implication you were making in the post was that we're being led down the garden path by pretending there is large Western support when there is in fact large Russian support.

Common sense would say that if 90% speak Russian, Russia has had a major influence on their day to day Life. I doubt 90% speak English or other minor E.U nation's languages. I care not for your opinon, nor you mine. To call me a liar was not cool. Let Time and the Truth settle who is right and wrong and have the last word. I can't be any fairer than that.Can you?

13th Zodiac
Common sense would say that if 90% speak Russian, Russia has had a major influence on their day to day Life.

No, common sense doesn't "say" that - English is the main language in the USA but does the UK have a "major influence" in day to day life? No. Same with Australia, or New Zealand. As another example, Cameroon has both French and English as it's official languages but do you think either countries have a "major influence" on day to day living?

13th Zodiac
I doubt 90% speak English or other minor E.U nation's languages.

Have you even checked, or just making an assumption? English is the second most spoken foreign language after Russian, apparently.

13th Zodiac
I care not for your opinon, nor you mine.

I don't care if you don't care - you've made some truly horrendous assumptions without clearly checking your facts, so I am pointing it out for all to see - we're supposed to be denying ignorance on this site, not propagating it.

13th Zodiac
To call me a liar was not cool. Let Time and the Truth settle who is right and wrong and have the last word. I can't be any fairer than that.Can you?

Ah, that's what that was about - I did wonder. Somewhat over-sensitive, surely?

reply to post by stumason


What ever

Wookiep
I doubt there will be a split because I think it comes down to who wants it more, Russia or the EU. Unfortunately, I highly doubt the people will end up making the actual decision in the end.

I remember my basketball coach saying the same thing about the basketball and going for rebounds. Who wants it more will get it.

It is a sad day when the fate of all of those people is decided by "who wants it more." It is all a game to some people. Don't worry about what's best for all of those children. Surely, the children are screaming: "Please come to our town with big guns and tanks. You must save us!"

No, I think they are thinking "why are grown ups so crazy? I just want to have fun. What are you big people fighting about?"

At some point, people lose their innocence. Look to the innocent for your role models. Your kids.

reply to post by FreeWillAnomaly

It is a sad day when the fate of all of those people is decided by "who wants it more." It is all a game to some people. Don't worry about what's best for all of those children. Surely, the children are screaming: "Please come to our town with big guns and tanks. You must save us!"

many a times the 'natural want' of people is tricked by misinformation and by the time real truth comes out...................the people have lost lots of stability in the society, economy etc. Egypt is a good example. Ukraine will be no different.

Bringing about a change in leadership/regime/political party is relatively easy but implementing the real change is 10x difficult.

If a country does not have solid sources of revenues like Oil for Iraq and Libya, then bringing changes for decades long set ups is very very difficult. Russian situation improved only by little as a result of higher oil prices since 2000. Some say today's Russia is more corrupt than USSR is mid-late 80s.

There are many factions in the society who cannot change just like that. If they try to do so, they risk getting 'totally perished' like left to die. The mix of such variables is a constant impediment to bringing about real changes and especially in the 'mostly' lawless third world societies.

reply to post by victor7


While I agree that we live in an age of deception, I don't understand why anyone would say modern Russia is even comparable to the USSR of the 80s, let alone worse. Can you explain the logic to me?

Can only hope the good intensions of non-intervention of the USA and Russia over Ukraine are genuine
that this will all end positively,lets all light a candle shall we
www.liveleak.com...

reply to post by FreeWillAnomaly


In year 2012, roughly $67B of capital left Russia. In 2013, $100B is forecasted. 90% of these are the looted funds from Russian Treasury and are destined for secret bank accounts. This is one example of severe chronic bribe culture type corruption in today's Russia. In terms of corruption, today's Russia is in worse shape.

Only due to oil and commodity prices, situation has stabilized a little. Modern Russia does not mean modern western cars and personal gadgets on people or several Hard Rock cafes around the town or how many 14 year olds have already lost their virginity. Find out the real variables of modern and efficient western economies and compare their presence in Russia or Ukraine or Belarus (which is still very socialist).

Capitalism is a natural and powerful method of living. However, implementing it in crony and unethical ways will mess up this system quickly. Then at best will be the 'hypocrisy and pretense' i.e. hiding the real ugly truths in the society. Not a long run approach.

reply to post by TDawgRex


Ignition plug for WW2 was 'Hitler rolls into Poland', so guess what it will be this time............... Its on the ruddy cards, But for once I hope i'm wrong.

13th Zodiac
reply to post by freakjive

 

There is far greater support for Russian ties, than we in the West are lead to believe ( 90 % speaking Russian ).We are not being shown this in the media until now, to push an agenda. The small Western funded minority are been pushed on us in a certain portrail, to gather Western support. The true Russian support is only now being shown full scale, thus making them look like trouble makers in a now free liberated and Soveriegn Country.Nothing could be further from the truth.Who would want to join a failing debt ridden E.U. Even the majority of Great Britian's populace want out!Keep it real George Clooney. This is going to end badly for all envolved.There are no Winners in such things.

So a pro russian president surrounded by pro russian secret service and pro russian police and pro russian army and a majority pro russian people has to flee the country, lose the presidency, lose the government buildings to a pro western minority armed with a couple of guns and molotov cocktails.

That's ludicrous.....but the only explanation that supports the belief that east (russia) is good and west is bad!

The country is split, as well you know. With the north west pro western and the south east pro russian. The south east being populated by ex-russians. So you can get whatever view you want depending on where you point the camera.

Oh and why would anyone want to join the corrupt mafia gangsters that run Russia! The population in GB wants out of Europe because they have been fed a one sided view of Europe from the anti european press. The very press you are slating sheeeeeeeeeeesh !!!!!!!!!!!! You could not make up such hypocrisy could you

reply to post by Wookiep


There is a 4th option...Ukraine going it alone and basically breaking that status quo on how an economy (and a government that directs it) operates. Too bad there are still way too many people there (and around the world) who are uneducated on these possibilities. Perhaps an RBE would be their answer, where it really doesn't step on the toes, at all, of their cultural identity crisis. Of which, Ukraine & Russia are trying to still figure out in a post-soviet world.

Resource Based Economy

Post-Scarcity Economy

reply to post by Sparkymedic


Didn't Russia cut off oil supplies to the Ukraine, which was used for heating their homes a couple of years ago? I could be wrong, memory is foggy on particulars...so please someone correct me if I am wrong. However, if I am not. How could these people see Russia as a positive entity?

This will be interesting to watch because I've often heard the argument here in the states that if something like this happened, the troops if called in, wouldn't fight.

Is this the point where the troops themselves choose sides? Would you fire on your countrymen?

reply to post by Catacomb


when you owe a debt in big sums and that too for a long time, then the creditor has to finally pull some measures to make you pay. non-payment and freeloading on gas has been ukraine's long time habbit. russia had to do something about it. common business practice.

reply to post by mrsdudara


You cannot compare the US to the issues facing Ukraine/ Russia. 1) They have a significantly longer history of relations than even the existence of the US...a couple of times over. Making things just that much more complicated through their shared histories. Also there is not REAL internal/external conflict of national identity within or around the US - ie, Canada does not want to break away from US influence (although it would be nice). Although Mexicans most certainly want to be in the US for jobs/ better quality of life, but that again is not anything like what Russia/ Ukraine are dealing with.

2) Ukraine is not JUST a former state of the USSR. Ukraine is essentially where Russia was born out of. One could not be what they are without the other and vice versa. Ukraine and Russia, in a post-soviet world, are most definitely encountering an national identity crisis. Again painting the picture of a very long, twisted and tangled history of relations between these two nations. Put outside influences into that pot and you have what we are now witnessing. One way or another this is all inevitable since the breakup of the Soviet Union.

The troops may indeed, as you say - not fight - disobey their orders. However, troops tend to be brainwashed to one level or another and tend to be religious (nationalistic) zealots when you raise the flag they are sworn to protect. I'm not trying to over simplify, discredit or insult military personnel, but they do/are supposed to act in accordance to orders - very cut and dry, which makes them effective fighting forces. That said, they are still human and still know, sometimes, when to draw a line. History doesn't exactly have a lot of examples of this happening though.

So I highly doubt that Russian troops won't do as they are told. And I highly doubt that the same goes for Ukrainian troops. Tensions are, to say the least, quite high in the region.

Side Note: For all of those not familiar with flight-sim's, the "Lock On: Modern Air Combat" series of fighter combat "games" - most definitely more of a sim than a game - has been using the Black Sea region (and specifically this scenario of Ukr vs Rus) for the scenery of operations in their games since they began development back in the early 90's under the original game title "Flanker" (NATO designation of the Russian made Su-27 fighter jet). Interestingly enough, the game has been designed by Russians and Ukrainians.

reply to post by Sparkymedic


I did not mean to hit a nerve with my comparison. I do respect the fact that your history goes way beyond ours. Our country is essentially a rowdy toddler in comparison.

I was leaning more toward the human factor. Do you think the troops would take orders from a leader they might not respect as their own? For instance if that soldier believed the other President was ousted illegally would he take orders from the new "leader"?

It is a unique situation with, as you said, people with strong history. I don't take - from what I've seen/read - the Ukrainian people as ones to be pushed about like sheep.

victor7
If Ukraine uses military force to quell demonstrations, then it will give Russia a reason to send tanks to Crimea and East Ukraine.

Now that the 'real border' i.e. that of the former USSR has been penetrated, be prepared for more than silent Russian response. Just like Georgia in 2008, Russia will not keep quiet in Ukraine either.

More realistic scenario is vertical split of Ukraine into West and East. Hopefully that goes peacefully.

edit on 25-2-2014 by victor7 because: (no reason given)

I agree with you 100%.. I'm going through my days right now and getting done what I need to get done but always aware that a breaking news story may change our lives, globally, in very real ways ..at any time right now.

There's no nice way to say it..so I won't try, and you get this 100% anyway. However, the younger generations see Russians as our friends. They aren't. Not the Government of the Russian Federation anyway. Younger folks cannot fathom or imagine war ...not in Europe and not for real. Well...some still walk around carrying 1st person memory of the last war in Europe. It was that recent...and the more sure we are to say it cannot happen again, the more certain that is to insure it happens sooner than later, if only to prove such assumptions wrong.

In my few decades of watching world events and particularly since the Fall of the Wall? This represents the most unstable and truly dangerous time I've been alive to see. I hope we can laugh about this next month, talking about doomsayers and agreeing how nothing happened. Nothing would make me happier. Nothing on Earth.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Not all us younguns are that naive.

Anyone that knows there history cant fail to see that Ukraine is the material world wars are made of.

Bad things have been kicked off for much less.


Lucky would be getting Crimea war 2.0

Unlucky we all get nuked.

Wrabbit2000
However, the younger generations see Russians as our friends. They aren't. Not the Government of the Russian Federation anyway.

Why do you say that? Im in my mid 30's So I don't really include myself with the term "younger generation". The past few years, Putin has stood up for us citizens more than most of our own government has. I personally feel less threatened by the Russians than our own government. Our countries were allies once too.

I do share your hope that nothing comes of any of this. No I do not have memory of any of the great wars other than what my Grandpa's have told me. I do know enough however that the idea of my son joining the military next year scares the living daylights out of me.