Thoughts on the Flood and Evolution.(Thanks to Flyers Fan)

AliceBleachWhite
vethumanbeing

ABWAtlantis is a thought experiment/exercise like Utopia. It never existed except in Plato's head.

I heard it differently. Plato; when apprised of the/a potencial existance of 'a Troy city'
and the similar myths involved got the two confused, and never wrote of Atlantis again to save his skin/authenticity; unfortunately his writings about Atlantis persist, as do Nostradamus's, Edgar Cayce (Herododus, lemme run go check).

Once again the OP started a thread about this subject and ran away when the facts were presented. I challenge him to come back and acknowledge the facts ... the facts that LOGICALLY point to Noahs Ark not happening and the fact that the Old Testament stories are not to be taken as the literal Word of God.

FlyersFan
Once again the OP started a thread about this subject and ran away when the facts were presented. I challenge him to come back and acknowledge the facts ... the facts that LOGICALLY point to Noahs Ark not happening and the fact that the Old Testament stories are not to be taken as the literal Word of God.

As opposed to the New Testament?

Couldn't you also show LOGICALLY that a man cannot return from the dead after rotting for 3 days? or that it's impossible for a man to walk on water etc etc etc?

If you've dropped the OT because it's ILLOGICAL, why wouldn't you also drop the NT?

Seems a little bit too convenient

reply to post by Prezbo369


Maybe because its logical... not the myths, but the method...

reply to [url= by Akragon[/url]


Could you go into more depth on that?

Is the method you mention sending your own son who's also yourself to be a sacrificial killing to create a loophole for a law you created?

Because that's even more illogical...

And since when did 'method' override basic logic?

reply to post by Prezbo369

Is the method you mention sending your own son who's also yourself to be a sacrificial killing to create a loophole for a law you created?

Because that's even more illogical...

nah...

I'm no Christian

Could you go into more depth on that?

Sure...

The gospels are logical... the "method" Jesus taught works...

And IF everyone could even come close to understanding it there would be peace on earth...

reply to post by Prezbo369

Start a thread on the topic .... if the OT is unbelievable then why believe the NT.
That's a discussion for another thread .. not this one.
You brought it up, so you can be the opening poster for the new thread.

Akragon

The gospels are logical... the "method" Jesus taught works...

And IF everyone could even come close to understanding it there would be peace on earth...

I don't think we're both using the same definition of logic here.....you're talking about a philosophy.

And a philosophy does not excuse illogical claims such as walking on water.

But like you said you're no christian...

Prezbo369

Akragon

The gospels are logical... the "method" Jesus taught works...

And IF everyone could even come close to understanding it there would be peace on earth...

I don't think we're both using the same definition of logic here.....you're talking about a philosophy.

And a philosophy does not excuse illogical claims such as walking on water.

But like you said you're no christian...

No... we're talking about the same thing

Logic is logic... and ye ain't gonna out logic me...

Yes... I am talking about a philosophy... and it has nothing to do with walking on water... Though its a nifty thing IF he actually did walk on water, it has nothing to do with what he taught...

He didn't come here to walk on water, though I suppose you could take that in a metaphorical sense...

FlyersFan
reply to [url= by Prezbo369[/url]

 

Start a thread on the topic .... if the OT is unbelievable then why believe the NT.
That's a discussion for another thread .. not this one.
You brought it up, so you can be the opening poster for the new thread.

I asked you specifically about a specific claim you made because I'm interested in your reply and not so much the replies i'd get from other more ILLOGICAL posters

If Noahs Ark happened - 16 million critters would have been on the ark. That's impossible.
If Noahs Ark happened - there would be polar bears and penquins and armadillos (etc) living in Turkey.
If Noahs Ark happened - human DNA diversity would be magnitudes less than what it is today.
If Noahs Ark happened - the human race couldn't reproduce and survive with only 3 pair of reproducing humans.
If Noahs Ark happened - the ancient civilizations of India would be disturbed. They aren't.
If Noahs Ark happened - where did all the water come from? If Noahs Ark happened - where did all the water go? Not into space. Impossible.
If Noahs Ark happened - the Earths crust would have collapsed from the weight. It didn't happen.
If Noahs Ark happened - the oceans would be DEAD. And so would we because we can't live without them.
If Noahs Ark happened - the 100,000 year old reefs would be destroyed and dead. They are not.
If Noahs Ark happened - the sea algea would have all died from severe lack of sunlight for months and months, but we know from core samples it survived fine.
If Noahs Ark happened -we would have evidence of it in the ice core samples from the poles. There is no evidence in the samples.

reply to post by FlyersFan



I am not running. I have already done tons of research on Noah's Ark, and have an answer that satisfies me. I asked you to pick one thing and let us discuss it in detail, so pick your favorite out of these(for time sake) and explain to me how it is not circumstantial.

The amount of critters on a boat is argument from incredulity. I cannot imagine a situation in which a man in his family could build a boat that large, therefore it is impossible. However, one man built Coral Castle by himself. He even unloaded coral blocks that weighed many tons completely alone. This seems impossible to most of us, yet it has been done. The pyramids were built in ancient times, and we still have no idea how they actually did it. Does that mean the Pyramids are impossible and structures of God? Nope.

Now your welcome to pick your favorite explain to me why you believe it is 100% disproof of Noah's Ark rather than just speculation about observed evidence.

ServantOfTheLamb
Now your welcome to pick your favorite explain to me why you believe it is 100% disproof of Noah's Ark rather than just speculation about observed evidence.

What are you talking about? Each and every one of those proves without a doubt that Noahs Ark did not happen. There is no 'SPECULATION about observed evidence'. There is only fact. Any one of those FACTS proves Noahs Ark did not happen.

DNA population evidence isn't 'speculation' .. it's fact.
Reproduction inbreeding failures isn't 'speculation' ... it's fact.
Geological and Ice Core evidence isn't 'speculation' ... it's fact.
80,000 year old trees aren't 'speculation' ... they are fact.
100,000 year old reefs in the ocean aren't 'speculation' ... they are fact.
And the numbers do not lie. The mythological Noahs Ark could not hold 16 million animals. That's not 'speculation' .. that's a simple fact.

ServantOfTheLamb
explain to me how it is not circumstantial.

You dont' understand the term. Circumstantial evidence = pointing indirectly toward someone's guilt but not conclusively proving it. ALL of what I posted ... each one on it's own ... proved DIRECTLY and CONCLUSIVELY that Noahs Ark could not have happened.

reply to post by FlyersFan


"The mythological Noahs Ark could not hold 16 million animals. That's not 'speculation' .. that's a simple fact. "

Oh? You saw it? Plus I believe your number of 16 million is a bit off.

Only animals that were air-breathing, and land dwelling had to go on the Ark.

Genesis 7
15 So they went into the ark to Noah, by twos of all flesh in which was the breath of life.

21 All flesh that [s]moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind;

You say that Marine life could not have lived if there was a Global flood? Well the waters rose over a period of 40 days, so could marine life not gradually adjust to the water levels as it rose?

Plus, Noah wouldn't have needed two type of say every dog, and two types of every cat, and two types of every lizard.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

You say that Marine life could not have lived if there was a Global flood? Well the waters rose over a period of 40 days, so could marine life not gradually adjust to the water levels as it rose?

NO!!!

Explain how fresh water fish adjust to salt water in 40 days. Explain how coral can adjust to a salinity difference in 40 days.

Explain how all marine life adjusts to both a huge difference in salinity and temperature in 40 days.

Explain those things without a magic claim.

ServantOfTheLamb
"The mythological Noahs Ark could not hold 16 million animals. That's not 'speculation' .. that's a simple fact. "
Oh? You saw it? Plus I believe your number of 16 million is a bit off

Oh. My. God. Now someone has to have seen it in order to be able to debunk it? Really?
The number 16 million is dead on accurate. Two of each kind of critter.
Plus all their food. Enough to last months and months.
Plus all the plants and seeds for the plants because all the plants would have died in the flood.

You say that Marine life could not have lived if there was a Global flood? Well the waters rose over a period of 40 days, so could marine life not gradually adjust to the water levels as it rose?

Take a science class. The water would have been fresh water falling into the oceans. The ocean animals and ocean fish can not survive in mixed water like that. Their survival had nothing to do with 'adjusting to water levels'. It had to do with the mix of water. And the fact that the oceans being a mile high would have blocked the sun in the water, and killed the plant life and the algae. The food chain would have been broken.

Biblical Nonsense

The number 8.7 million - two of each would be 16 million. That's todays numbers.
The numbers would have been HIGHER back 4,300 years ago, before species went extinct.
Science Daily - How Many Species on Earth

About 8.7 million (give or take 1.3 million) is the new, estimated total number of species on Earth -- the most precise calculation ever offered -- with 6.5 million species on land and 2.2 million in oceans. Announced by the Census of Marine Life, the figure is based on a new analytical technique.

Noahs Ark - Debunked

Using the good Reverend Younce's figures, the ark (not a boat, but a box in Hebrew) displaced (assuming it floated at half its height) just under 76,000 cubic feet of water. [I calculate this to be just above 500k cubic feet of water, but I can't be trusted to add 2+2. B.C.] Assuming further that the water was nearly as dense as seawater (64 lb./cu. ft.), we get 4,860,000 lb. or 2430 tons for the vessel's gross weight, presumably about 1600 tons of cargo, including people, animals, and food for all of them. A cow weighs about half a ton; so, for the clean cattle alone, we're talking 3.5 tons. Ditto for camels, perhaps 3/4 ton for sheep, and 1/2 ton for goats. Add in all the marsupials, bison, rhinoceroses, elephants, reptiles, amphibians, birds, and so on, and we quickly exceed 1600 tons for animals alone, let alone their feed. As for "kinds," the Bible makes it clear that doves and crows are different "kinds," suggesting that at best, kinds are roughly equivalent to genus. That's a huge number of "kinds" to be accommodated. For the box to founder, it could support somewhat less than about 3200 tons of cargo.

Then you said this -

Plus, Noah wouldn't have needed two type of say every dog, and two types of every cat, and two types of every lizard.

Bring a pair of every kind of animal—a male and a female—into the boat with you to keep them alive during the flood. Pairs of every kind of bird, and every kind of animal, and every kind of small animal that scurries along the ground, will come to you to be kept alive. And be sure to take on board enough food for your family and for all the animals. So Noah did everything exactly as God had commanded him. (Gen. 6:19-22, NLT)

The Impossible Voyage of Noahs Ark - National Science Foundation
The national science foundation brings up an interesting point ..... if all the people had been wiped out then why is there still sexually transmitted diseases on the planet? They would have all died off with the people in the flood. But no ... there are still venereal diseases. They are fungal and parasitical and viral and are transmitted person to person. So did Noah go and gather the parasites and fungus onto the boat so that the V.D.s would survive? STDs

double post

Grimpachi
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

You say that Marine life could not have lived if there was a Global flood? Well the waters rose over a period of 40 days, so could marine life not gradually adjust to the water levels as it rose?

NO!!!

Explain how fresh water fish adjust to salt water in 40 days. Explain how coral can adjust to a salinity difference in 40 days.

Explain how all marine life adjusts to both a huge difference in salinity and temperature in 40 days.

Explain those things without a magic claim.

edit on 28-2-2014 by Grimpachi because: (no reason given)

Now lets get something straight. A hefty majority of the marine life would have died, and been buried by the flood. We find evidence of these marine fossils all the time.

How did freshwater fish survive?

There are two possibilities that I agree are possible.

The first is that in many areas of the world we see saltwater and freshwater exist together, but they do not mix. So some fresh water fish could have survived in pockets of freshwater, while the ocean animals lived in the salt.

The second possibility has to do with the fact that observable natural selection shows that species become more specialized over time. When we consider that many of today's species can adjust to both saltwater and freshwater(ex. fish that spawn in freshwater, but live in seawater), so it is likely that the ability to adjust to drastic changes in salinity existed in Noah's day.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

The first is that in many areas of the world we see saltwater and freshwater exist together, but they do not mix. So some fresh water fish could have survived in pockets of freshwater, while the ocean animals lived in the salt.

Please show me some examples of what you are talking about. Show me an example of a large body of salt water that has pockets of fresh water within it or vise versa. You are comparing an entire world submerged in water where there are no natural land barriers separating rivers and streams from the saltwater.

The second possibility has to do with the fact that observable natural selection shows that species become more specialized over time.

Are you talking about evolution? Evolution within 40 days?

When we consider that many of today's species can adjust to both saltwater and freshwater(ex. fish that spawn in freshwater, but live in seawater), so it is likely that the ability to adjust to drastic changes in salinity existed in Noah's day.

That certainly does not line up with 99% of the marine life in the world.

You still have not even touched on coral reefs where any drastic change in only a few degrees kills them off. That is one of the observable consequences of climate change today where reefs that have existed thousands of years are dieing off in mass because of small variances over years from the temperature change yet you seem to think a drastic change in both salinity and temperature within 40 days wouldn't kill them off.

Coral reefs that have existed thousands of years longer than the supposed time of the biblical flood are proof positive that the biblical flood story could not have happened.

Are you talking about evolution? Evolution within 40 days?

reply to post by Grimpachi


I agree with the second possibility far more than the first. I just figured I would give you both of the arguments I have seen.

Lets not take my sentence out of context. I am about to write a new post, and it will explain what I meant in more detail. THanks again man. You have brought up great arguments that have really taught me a lot about God believe it or not.