Creationism Analogue

I'm going to pose a future situation; a hypothetical albeit realistic one if we follow this technological road we're going down. The situation I'm creating is a frame of reference to compare against the moral standing of monotheistic deities, most notably the god from Biblical scripture. My main question here would be, would you consider the perpetrator evil, or justified/righteous in action.

At some time in the next 5 decades humans create a near-perfect hybrid of classical and quantum computing technology, thereby allowing for simulations to be run. The simulations may or may not contain conscious beings, but in the case of Victario he decides to spawn a simulation where conscious beings (humans) populate a 'special' planet. Victario decides it would be in his interest to spawn a couple other alter dimensions that fit in with the narrative of his universe. Either one of these secondary dimensions is only accessible to entities living inside the simulation, following death; one is an experiential plane of utter bliss, and the other a plane of endless agony. He has foreknowledge that the majority of sentient creatures in his simulation will not abide by the rules, therefore for all intents and purposes being hell-bound. Despite being aware of the incomprehensible horror of the simulation he's set forth, he goes on with the plan.

So let's assume that you yourself live X amount of decades into the future, where simulations are run regularly; and the consensus is that conscious simulated humans are equally as aware as we are. Would you see Victarios decision to premeditate the design of a simulation where most creatures are tortured eternally to be good/perfect, or evil? If you choose the latter then I would ask in what situation would this ever be considered not evil? If you pick the former then why would you consider it to not be so?

reply to post by Raelsatu


Wow, what an incredible analogy. I thought you were going somewhere else entirely with it until towards the end.

The person in charge of the simulation would be a person who undervalued the life inside of it or he was just cruel. I wonder how you would work the Jesus aspect in to it, though.

reply to post by Cuervo


Thanks. The scary/intriguing part is how close to reality that situation is.. Unless we run into an indomitable 'brick wall' there will most definitely be simulations that mimic our universe, similar to how video games already mimic reality (but only to an aesthetic limit).

As for Jesus, angels/demons etc I had considered writing an extra paragraph(s) into the mix, but I wanted to go for the core of the analogy. Angels, demons & prominent figures could simply be more factors included in the creators narrative.

Raelsatu
I'm going to pose a future situation; a hypothetical albeit realistic one if we follow this technological road we're going down. The situation I'm creating is a frame of reference to compare against the moral standing of monotheistic deities, most notably the god from Biblical scripture. My main question here would be, would you consider the perpetrator evil, or justified/righteous in action.

At some time in the next 5 decades humans create a near-perfect hybrid of classical and quantum computing technology, thereby allowing for simulations to be run. The simulations may or may not contain conscious beings, but in the case of Victario he decides to spawn a simulation where conscious beings (humans) populate a 'special' planet. Victario decides it would be in his interest to spawn a couple other alter dimensions that fit in with the narrative of his universe. Either one of these secondary dimensions is only accessible to entities living inside the simulation, following death; one is an experiential plane of utter bliss, and the other a plane of endless agony. He has foreknowledge that the majority of sentient creatures in his simulation will not abide by the rules, therefore for all intents and purposes being hell-bound. Despite being aware of the incomprehensible horror of the simulation he's set forth, he goes on with the plan.

So let's assume that you yourself live X amount of decades into the future, where simulations are run regularly; and the consensus is that conscious simulated humans are equally as aware as we are. Would you see Victarios decision to premeditate the design of a simulation where most creatures are tortured eternally to be good/perfect, or evil? If you choose the latter then I would ask in what situation would this ever be considered not evil? If you pick the former then why would you consider it to not be so?

edit on 23-2-2014 by Raelsatu because: (no reason given)

Victarios would be cruel, no? unless they had no souls and thus didn't truely live - and even then, it would be pointless to torture them no? but the problem I have is that this analogy could not be our reality. we have a loving God, so he wouldn't make anyone suffer eternally. nah, he sent his only Son and chose to forgive us just cause he likes us.

reply to post by Raelsatu


Ever seen the Cube trilogy? Would you consider the creators and implementors of that facility to be evil?

reply to post by JamesCookieIII


Wow. Now there was an original and insightful response. I bet no one saw that answer coming. Now, lets pull the OP's analogy out of the garbage you threw it in and take another look, shall we?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I did not trash anything - merely made a philosophical arguement... was trying to constructively criticize it. He asked a question and I wrote a response, no?

as for my reasoning, it is not mine to claim. it's logical if you believe... If not, please criticize away to your hearts content. anyways quit being overly defensive - we are searching for the same truth man.

reply to post by JamesCookieIII


Rock on, man.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by JamesCookieIII

 

Rock on, man.

Will do. But if they were soulless, what would you think then?

JamesCookieIII
Victarios would be cruel, no? unless they had no souls and thus didn't truely live - and even then, it would be pointless to torture them no? but the problem I have is that this analogy could not be our reality. we have a loving God, so he wouldn't make anyone suffer eternally. nah, he sent his only Son and chose to forgive us just cause he likes us.

Well apart from my analogy giving rise to a very [potentially] real scenario, perhaps you could elaborate on your reasoning for Victario's universe being evil, while God's is not.

"We have a loving God", yes and let's suppose Victario declares the exact same things to his simulated mortals. Let's say he claims all-loving, righteousness, and so on. Does that make his choice to create a dimension of unending torture any less evil? After all he has foreknowledge of the outcome --- that most of his creations will undoubtedly end up inside that realm.

"He sent his only son to forgive us". For being spawned into existence, to experience a short lifetime of choice-making that will statistically lead to hell? For many people life on Earth is already painful, so I don't see how 'God' compounding that pain by sending people to suffer infinitely more makes up for anything. Of course Jesus suffered a single martyrdom's death, and otherwise had an eternity of heaven; as for everyone else they have to make a decision based on a limited perception of reality.

If your post is sarcastic then that's just as fine. =p

AfterInfinity
reply to post by Raelsatu

 

Ever seen the Cube trilogy? Would you consider the creators and implementors of that facility to be evil?

I can't say that I've seen it. Or if I did it was only a few scenes... skimming over the plot it's basically about random people that wake up inside a cube construct that contains traps & acts as a puzzle? Just based on that alone it sounds like the implementers have an evil intention, but I still wouldn't put it on the same level as Victario.

reply to post by Raelsatu


If you think God is wicked, then I see where you're coming from. however here is my perception, which i can describe to you.

i have been literally through hell. The only way out was to work together with others to love one another and not even think negatively about them, or the world would unravel back to square one. I was stuck, couldn't move at all. I was forced to look at a cigarette butt that I littered for what felt like eternity. however, I prayed to God and was answered. I worked through love and learned from my mistakes and I am back to my family now.

now I have prayed other times for God to prove he was there.

One time I was in my dad's garage and was pissed off beyond belief. I was cursing God for making me live a life where I could be depressed and see so many apparently terrible things. There is a single bare light bulb in the ceiling and as I challenged him in his decisions, I said "God if your there then send me a sign." I was really depressed and thinking dark dark thoughts as I said this. As I finished my sentence, not a moment to late nor too soon, the light bulb flashed a brilliant blue, like what happens sometime when a bulb burns out, but as bright as a flashbang and vibrantly blue. I heard the filament hit the glass of the bulb and saw it sitting on the bottom of the bulb red hot. l almost you know whated my pants. I sat there in the dark and thought to myself - this could all be a coincidence. if its really God, i want a better sign then just a spectacularly blown light bulb. so I said in dumbfounded disbelief "God if you're really there... could you put the light back on?"

the light literally reformed the filament new. i couldn't believe my eyes. i had witnessed a miracle, or at very least a quantum event. considering the timing, no one in my mind could have pulled it off except God. This moment has influenced me greatly. I try not to use the Lord's name in vain now.

oh and Jesus - he died to show us that death is only the beginning. he was the ultimate sacrifice. It shows God's love I think.
He was willing to die a horrible death to show that love wins definitely. like I said I've been in a personal hell. feels like forever, but is only as long as you hate. God never leaves someone as beautiful as an ATS member to burn. so to liken God to a less than 100% loving creator just don't float my boat. he has proven to me that if I ask I shall recieve. not what I want, but what I need.


it's been more than 10 minutes and no one has attacked me personally? maybe the world ain't so bad after all : p

reply to post by JamesCookieIII


I'm happy to hear you were able to come back from a dark period in your life, whether that be by your own sheer will or the grace of some benevolent higher being. That said I wonder how many people have gone through terrible experiences, that have prayed for something they needed --- that were never answered. Others would say they saw a miracle not knowingly associated with the Biblical god, or something that altered their path for the better. That path doesn't always lead to the specific salvation God demands. Love shouldn't have to be demanded, nor built upon a foundation of fear; And yet that's a driving force of the religious sects.

All that considered, it still doesn't divert from the original question. Even if Victario were able to grant some people alleviation from their pain via signs and other intervention, he still premeditated the creation of a world where eternal pain exist, that he had foreknowledge of most people ending up at that impasse.

JamesCookieIII
oh and Jesus - he died to show us that death is only the beginning. he was the ultimate sacrifice. It shows God's love I think.
He was willing to die a horrible death to show that love wins definitely. God never leaves someone as beautiful as an ATS member to burn. so to liken God to a less than 100% loving creator just don't float my boat. he has proven to me that if I ask I shall recieve. not what I want, but what I need.

edit on 2/23/2014 by JamesCookieIII because: (no reason given)

I agree with a lot of these ideas on a base level. But I can't reconcile the concept of love with an outside observer that has no issue with letting countless egos suffer an eternal hell as described in scripture. Plenty of people have died for love, & ideas of a greater good.. Jesus just happens to be a famous example of that.

reply to post by Raelsatu


finally someone I totally agree with. only advice I can give you is to have faith that God wouldn't deceive you in ways that you should not be decieved. so like I said before, in your example Victarios is less than perfect. I mean I guess I just feel like that is Satan's philosophy- powerful, sort of scary, but flawed logic. so like, if your example is of OUR future, not some alternate in which there is no God, then I suppose this could happen. however, I feel that if it's in ours, the God wouldn't let those alive beings suffer. not if they had the potential for infinite loss/torment in some way. If they didn't have souls, then they couldn't be timeless right? But if they DID have souls then God watching over Victarios would save them. statistically, a perfect being would save everything worth saving. I don't think that sin is eternally damning.

reply to post by Raelsatu


Very interesting. And a good analogy. I wouldnt use the word evil when i speak about unpleasant experiments, unless your saying that vic somehow enjoyed the agony of the simulated people, but I assume your scenario is of a scientist doing simulations to gain a deeper understanding. This reminds me of the stories of doctors practising surgeries on dogs, pigs, apes, rabbits, rats, mice. I would not call those doctors evil, not all of them, but i think all compassion is removed during that sort of work. I think it is cruel work and at no time do i think that it is not cruel work. But it possibly may be the only way to come to a complete understanding of of a scenerio.

So when i compare this to the christian or jewish faith that their god created them in a world where most everyone is for all intents pretty miserable, and all have experienced some agony. i see a few noticeable differences.

1) according to scripture, the abrahamic god who created the world and humans, did so for his own glory. He expects humans to worship him or bare the consequences.

2) according to scripture, at first eden was a perfect garden and adam and eve lived happily in safety until god banished them and wrought all sorts of agony and pain upon them.

So your doctor would be cruel but prob not evil.

God would def be cruel and evil.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by Raelsatu

 

Ever seen the Cube trilogy? Would you consider the creators and implementors of that facility to be evil?

Yes, because the subjects were kidnapped and put into a highly dangerous situation with no real expectation of survival.

Great movie

JamesCookieIII

AfterInfinity
reply to post by JamesCookieIII

 

Rock on, man.

Will do. But if they were soulless, what would you think then?

I do not condone animal cruelty. If soul is all that stops you from being a monster, then you are already a monster.

Interesting analogy if I grasped it correctly.

One would at first assume this is cruel, yet that is based on assumptions offered. You have to ask the question on whose conscioussness is within these simulations? Where did it come from? Is it the creators? If this is the case, for what purpose would one do this, but to challenge and experience life in multiple and various extremes? If the simulated beings are created in the image of the creator...would this not be the case?

A creator can experience many aspects knowing that none of it is 'real', it is all simulated. This then would not be cruel or evil. New creations of simulations can be created over and over to observe and experience different realities. In other words, it in reality only has meaning for the creator's experiences, it's own consciousness divided amongst all of the simulations. This would be self analyzing and Good/evil would not even be in question then. It would simply be self experientialism at its most extreme. What do you think?

reply to post by Raelsatu


Unless a person takes an action that has an eternally harmful effect, they should not have an eternally harmful punishment. The punishment is not equal to the action being done. This is not justice and since justice is a part of morality then this is not moral.

CynConcepts
A creator can experience many aspects knowing that none of it is 'real', it is all simulated. This then would not be cruel or evil. New creations of simulations can be created over and over to observe and experience different realities. In other words, it in reality only has meaning for the creator's experiences, it's own consciousness divided amongst all of the simulations. This would be self analyzing and Good/evil would not even be in question then. It would simply be self experientialism at its most extreme. What do you think?

Well one of the main points I was going for is whether or not it's evil to create a scenario where eternal pain awaits conscious lifeforms. The consensus would normally be yes; although you seem to think it's not cruel or evil because the humans would be living inside a simulated universe... Which undermines any logic or morality in this circumstance. The humans inside the simulation are just as conscious and aware as we are. In the way that we're living inside this universe, yet there's the proposition that "God" created us. So our creator may be observing from outside in the same way Victario would observe lifeforms inside of a different [simulated] universe.

I'm also unsure of what you're implying by saying that the creator's self is divided amongst all new simulations. This is a completely different idea based on the notion that consciousness is a single phenomena that arises, and that ultimately we're all one. Yet for the purpose of this discussion, we're assuming that I'm myself, and you're.. you. You can't commit an atrocious act against another life-form and then use that argument.