Russian tanks exhibited at entrance to Sevastopol, Ukraine.

Russia, slowly but surely, is being surrounded by western backed countries.
Albania, Bulgaria, Czech republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Rumania. Slovakia, Slovenia and Turkey are all Nato member states, without mentioning the rest of the european contingent.

Syrias out of control and Russia can't do anything about it.
Afghanistan is under US / UK control (officialy).

China and Russia don't always see eye to eye.

So effectively, the former Soviet Union is surround, now by a breakaway Ukraine aswell, and as i mentioned, an animal in a corner always come outs fighting.

andy1972
So effectively, the former Soviet Union is surround, now by a breakaway Ukraine aswell, and as i mentioned, an animal in a corner always come outs fighting.

Whats funny is that they are surrounded [as you put it] by either 'Former Soviet Union States" or former "Warsaw Pact Allies" who just might know a thing or two more about how it was in the good ole Soviet Union.

Former Soviet States....

Russia
Armenia
Azerbaijan
Belarus
Estonia
Georgia
Kazakhstan
Kyrgyzstan
Latvia
Lithuania
Moldova
Tajikistan
Turkmenistan
Ukraine
Uzbekistan

reply to post by sevastopol


If it is how you describe (and I'm hearing similar things to be honest..I just can't corroborate anything to post right now) then I'll actually find myself rooting for Putin to take action and take back Ukraine from the armed mobs, fools like our Senators helped arm and empower.

If..and it's all about that little word..If..it is actually a minority of trouble makers and thugs (which it sure HAS looked to me, as well) then Ukraine went from the Russian frying pan into the Western Deep Frier. They're going to come out extra cripsy if they stay in the middle of both powers for too long, I think.

I wonder what the average Ukrainian does have to say about this, anyway? They've been pawns through blood and hardship between East and West now for nearly a century or more in general terms. I'd think they'd be sick of it by now. Either side..always at them to give tribute and loyalty. Ukraine was the wet dream of men on the American side during the Cold War..and now..we've picked it out of Putins back pocket like a billfold in a busy train station.

I do wonder..what those living there might have wanted? Did the armed mobs ask them? They sure didn't number enough to fully represent them.

Shouldn't Self-determination be respected?, look what happened to Syria.
Unless legal the Russians should stay out? on the other hand if this were occurring in Canada I would expect the USA to be rumbling across the border,we will see,need to know more before forming a solid opinion.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


My friend you must be Russian and are only going to believe what you want. The facts are clear however. Germany beat Russia butt back to the fringe of Moscow. They stalled and eventually withdrew only because Hitler made mistakes. He did not commit the troops and resources the generals requested and needed. Had he done that the Russians were finished.

He did not. This was because he was fighting on too many fronts and we began to kick his butt. Russia in her defense used scorched earth policy and left nothing for the Germans to use during the bitter winter.

These are facts. If you read any of the many documents from the war you will see this. Had they been given the resources Russia was done. It is moot point now though.

The Bot

all2human
if this were occurring in Canada I would expect the USA to be rumbling across the border, we will see

Only if they refused to take Bieber back

No, seriously you got a fair point. However, the US and in this case Russia would both be wrong for doing so.

dlbott
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

 

My friend you must be Russian and are only going to believe what you want. The facts are clear however. Germany beat Russia butt back to the fringe of Moscow. They stalled and eventually withdrew only because Hitler made mistakes. He did not commit the troops and resources the generals requested and needed. Had he done that the Russians were finished.

He did not. This was because he was fighting on too many fronts and we began to kick his butt. Russia in her defense used scorched earth policy and left nothing for the Germans to use during the bitter winter.

These are facts. If you read any of the many documents from the war you will see this. Had they been given the resources Russia was done. It is moot point now though.

The Bot

You're right, the facts are clear:

Approx. Number of German Divisions in the East (July 1941) - 141
Approx. Number of German Divisions in the West (July 1941) - 40
Approx. Number of German Divisions in the East (June 1943) - 187
Approx. Number of German Divisions in the West (June 1943) - 53 + 4 in Italy
Approx. Number of German Divisions in the East (June 1944) - 150
Approx. Number of German Divisions in the West (June 1944) - 66 + 27 in Italy
Approx. Number of German Divisions in the East (December 1944) - 135
Approx. Number of German Divisions in the West (December 1944) - 76 + 25 in Italy
Approx. Number of German Divisions in the East (April 1945) - 163
Approx. Number of German Divisions in the West (April 1945) - 67 + 23 in Italy

Approx. Number of Soviet Military Casualties in the East (killed or captured) - 15.8 Million
Approx. Number of German Military Casualties in the East (killed or captured) - 10.5 Million
Approx. Number of Allied Military Casualties in the West (killed or captured) - 3 Million
Approx. Number of German Military Casualties in the West (killed or captured) - 1 Million

Russia has been around for a long time and has suffered every kind of adversity and disaster imaginable. They are still here. I have no desire to live there and share their hardships, I count myself fortunate to live in the West, but to believe anything other than Russia is the Anvil upon which the Nazi's were broken is wishful thinking. They certainly didn't do it alone, they had lots of help, but give credit where it is due.

reply to post by all2human


Shouldn't self-determination have meant something for the EU and US to stay clear as well, or it something for Russia to follow but not the West? Look Ukraine has had anything but it's own right to determine it's future

all2human
reply to post by SLAYER69
Holds as much weight as Russia asking the United States to keep out of Canada under similar conditions.

edit on 23-2-2014 by all2human because: (no reason given)

Q: Under what "similar conditions" would the USA deploy troops to potentially fight against the Canadian forces and government?

A: None


I'm no stupid jingoist, but look at the facts. In 1989 and 1990, you did not see Denmark and Netherlands (e.g.) eagerly escaping and joining the Warsaw Pact. There's a very good reason for that.

The two opposing sides are not mirror images of one another, despite what the USA/Europe haters seem to want to believe. Then, and now.

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by all2human

 

Shouldn't self-determination have meant something for the EU and US to stay clear as well,

Indeed. As a matter of fact, when Yankoyuvitch decided to stiff the EU, there was not any single consideration of EU or USA employing outright military force on their own to "protect their interests" the way Putin has been growling and apparently starting to do.

If the Russians were ever to wonder honestly why the EU and NATO have been coming to their doorstep (i.e. Eastern European nations when given a democratic chance mostly choosing Europe and not Russia), all they need is a mirror and a truth serum.

SLAYER69

andy1972
So effectively, the former Soviet Union is surround, now by a breakaway Ukraine aswell, and as i mentioned, an animal in a corner always come outs fighting.

Whats funny is that they are surrounded [as you put it] by either 'Former Soviet Union States" or former "Warsaw Pact Allies" who just might know a thing or two more about how it was in the good ole Soviet Union.

Former Soviet States....

Russia
Armenia
Azerbaijan
Belarus
Estonia
Georgia
Kazakhstan
Kyrgyzstan
Latvia
Lithuania
Moldova
Tajikistan
Turkmenistan
Ukraine
Uzbekistan

Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania are now playing with their new friends, NATO.

Georgia should be the new kid on the NATO block before then end of 2014.

Moldova hasnt been friends with Russia since 2003, since Russias proposal to end the transnitrian conflict.

Ukraine...well, sit back and watch the show.

Uzbekistan backed out of the CTSO TREATY in 2012, leading to comments that Uzbekistan was warming up to western friends.

Turkmanistan has gas, Russia will bend over backwards to keep her sweet.

Tajikistan is highly dependant on the remittances coming from Russia. In 2012, it received US $3.595 billion in migrant remittances, equalling some 48% of its GDP. Some 1.5 million Tajiks work abroad, mostly in Russia.

Kyrgyzstan has a Russian air force base, only because its economically dependant on Russia.

Kazakhstan, yes, are well in with Russia. The Russians have actually given in and given them an official border and a few lines on map. How sweet.

Belarus, again, another country economically dependant on Russia. However theres bad blood, so its not all hugs and kisses. In 2009 Russia offered Belarus a 500 million dollar loan, with the condition they officaly recognised South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
They said NO, saying Belarus's point of view wasn't for sale..Russia then said it was time to pay the gas bill for that year. They asked for 231 million dollars. Belarus then threatened to put up customs points and asked if having Russia as a freind was even necessary..

Azerbaijan..well pissed that Russia has sold (allegedly) 800 million dollars worth of arms to Armenia..

Armenia is Russias best buddy, along with Iran..

So....Russia has only one real country it can rely on, Armenia, in the area. The rest are dependent economically and have no real allegance to their former master.

Russian Ships Carrying Soldiers Said To Be En Route To Sevastopol

Today at 12:00 from the Russian port of Temryuk should arrive in Sevastopol, the large landing ship "Nikolai Fil'chenkov" with 200 soldiers on board. This was reported today by the chairman of the Ukraine "Freedom" faction Oleg Tyagnibok citing sources in the Crimean.

"I can show you the text message" - said Tyahnibok and read: "Today at 12:00 is expected the arrival from the port of Temryuk in the Russian Federation in the city of Sevastopol large landing ship Nikolai Fil'chenkov from the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Federation. It will bring about 200 armed soldiers from the 328th Marine battalion, who are based in Temryuk and 10 BTR-80."

He also noted that "on February 22-23, ... IL-76 flights airlifted from Kubinka (Moscow region) to Anapa, personnel from the 45th Airborne Special Forces unit and additional divisions were relocated via four Il-76 flights from Pskov to Anapa. And from Sochi to Anapa were transported six Mi-8 helicopsters"- said Tyahnibok.
This appears to not be an isolated move as the naval build up seems to be escalating. In a concurrent release, Izvestia Kiev reported that out of Kubinka, four ships carrying special forces, are being relocated to Anapa. From there, in four hours, they will depart fo Sevastopol at a speed of 10-15 knots, citing "Izvestia in Ukraine" as a source. According to the source, the redeployment is "qualitative, not quantitative" and that the Ukraine is following these developments.

It remains to be seen if the Ukraine, or its brand new NATO BFFs, will respond in kind.

www.zerohedge.com...
So soldiers it is...

reply to post by MessageforAll


200 to most likely simply reinforce their Naval base. I hardly think they'll storm Kiev.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Yeah, maybe send some troops to protects the more Russian friendly city's? More to the eastern border I mean.

At the end of the Day Russia is tied up in Syria fighting the Syrian people to stay close to Moscow and to stop the majority Sunni Muslims hai. Control over there ruling minority government in bed with putins mafia

The Saudis and Qatar will push Russia into a financial black hole if Moscow wants to keep trying to hold on to its puppets in Damascus...

Qatar will build its super pipeline through Syria and Ukraine

Bye bye soviets bye bye Russian empire x

MessageforAll
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Yeah, maybe send some troops to protects the more Russian friendly city's? More to the eastern border I mean.

They're Russian speaking immigrants not Ukrainians, you can literally head count the pro East/Russian protests down sound it stinks of staged.. However the pro west rallies and protests an endless sea of people revolting the government officials in bed with Moscow decisions

It's a blatant failed attempt by the KGB to bribe Ukraine's leaders, at the end of the day Russia want Ukraine for strategic grounds, and Ukraine bent leaders wants to sell there countrymen and women out along with there voice for a nice retirement home on the Black Sea

Putin is a desperate clown

the old vote to send the young to war and die.

Why does the united states need to be apart of this? WHY!!!

o yeah, thats right, oil and gas. forgot, thats worth killing over.

im tired of losing friends in useless wars.

FWIW to add a little to the thread here, I was finally able to hear a bit from the Ukrainian girl in my history course. In fact, she was kind enough to explain some of the politics for the class, given the nature of the course and all.

This is just one Ukrainian relaying it though, bu she's a recent immigrant and knows her own nation well enough, I'd imagine.

What she's shared was the fact there is a very real and legitimate divide of feelings between Eastern and Western Ukraine. The Eastern side, as one might imagine, being more Russian in leaning and thinking while the Western side identifies far more with Europe.

So.. Take it for what it's worth, of course, but it sounds like it's a very real conflict among the locals, albeit generously helped on both sides by outside powers who ought to stay out of this, given that perspective. I don't know how all that turns out, since we're a long way from a distant global corner where "things just happen" but smack between Europe and the Russian Federation where the whole world is watching every subtle sign and nuance.

Europe hasn't been at war in a real way since World War II..but to look before that? Well.. This has been a remarkable period of ongoing peace. Almost unprecedented.....almost. It will have made for a good run, if that streak is about to be broken.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Yes, we already confirmed that.Timoshenko and Jushcenko ( also corrupted) know it how to play smart and balancing the relations with east and west and keep it Ukraine peaceful. Janukovich was dumb with leaning with one side only and he will pay it now , probably with his life like this corrupted chief of customs who was trying to flee today.

Wrabbit2000
Europe hasn't been at war in a real way since World War II..but to look before that? Well.. This has been a remarkable period of ongoing peace. Almost unprecedented.....almost. It will have made for a good run, if that streak is about to be broken.

What makes this anymore likely for real war in Europe than two opposing sides armed to the teeth and with their fingers on the button like the Cold war was?

Then you had both sides testing, probing, taunting each other. Nuclear proliferation going unchecked, Tens of thousands of Armored vehicles poised on both sides. Rhetoric being tossed back and forth from East to West and back again.

The Eastern part of the Ukraine that are mostly [Russian Speaking support Russia] *Imagine that* and the Western part of the Ukraine [that speak Ukrainian] that want closer ties with the rest of Europe.

Seems like a no easy solution situation but I hardly start with the Doom/Fear porn just yet.